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Author Topic: The real issue between occasionally and never attending NO  (Read 9345 times)

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Offline forlorn

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Re: The real issue between occasionally and never attending NO
« Reply #15 on: July 25, 2021, 03:22:38 PM »
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  • If you are comparing simply the NO wedding with a Protestant wedding, you are correct.  The difference, which you fail to recognize, is that if the NO wedding also includes a new mass, that is the clinching factor that you cannot attend.
    I wasn't aware that Protestant weddings don't include Prod "Masses". That's a very good point. My argument has been that a Prod pseudo-Mass is equivalent to a NO pseudo-Mass, so since Prods don't have fake Masses as part of their weddings, then I stand corrected and apologise for the false assumption there. 

    Offline Yeti

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    Re: The real issue between occasionally and never attending NO
    « Reply #16 on: July 25, 2021, 03:52:31 PM »
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  • If you are comparing simply the NO wedding with a Protestant wedding, you are correct.  The difference, which you fail to recognize, is that if the NO wedding also includes a new mass, that is the clinching factor that you cannot attend.
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    It's shocking to me that so many of you have no principles on why we avoid the new mass 100%.  That is part of being a Traditional Catholic.  If you have some exceptions in mind on why it's ok to attend *sometimes*, then your refusal to attend it is not based on doctrine/theology, but pure sentimentality ("it's not as good", "it's inferior", etc).
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    Again, if you understood what the True Mass is, how holy it is, how perfect in God's eyes it is, then ANYTHING which makes it less holy or less perfect is an ABOMINATION.  Let's not forget that God despised Cain's offering, simply because Cain made it with a "not as good" intention.
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    God is perfect and all-holy.  Thus, the Mass we offer to Him MUST be perfect and all-holy.  This is what He deserves, as Our Creator.  If we give scandal by "passively" attending a NO, we sin by 2 of nine ways of being an accessory to sin - silence and consent.  Thus, we give scandal to everyone else there.  
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    It waters down the whole Trad movement if we give into the new mass, because then we send the message that Traditionalism is simply a "preference".  If you can go for weddings/funerals, why can't you go for other special occasions, like Christmas, Easter and New Years?  It's a slippery slope of bad logic, poor theology and a betrayal of doctrine.
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    Pax, if you have a pre-Vatican 2 book of theology, you can look this up for yourself. It's right there in Jone, if you have that. Someone attending a funeral or wedding is not actively participating in the false worship. He is merely being present at an important occasion, and shows his lack of acknowledgment of the false worship by refusing to participate in it. This isn't exactly a new question that no one ever heard of. This is the universal teaching before Vatican 2.
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    If you have some exceptions in mind on why it's ok to attend *sometimes*, then your refusal to attend it is not based on doctrine/theology, but pure sentimentality ("it's not as good", "it's inferior", etc).

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    You are confusing two different things. Certainly you are correct in saying someone cannot attend the New Mass, ever, period, if by that you mean attending it as a religious service. But when someone is passively present at a non-Catholic family member's funeral or wedding, he is attending the funeral/wedding, he is not attending (in the normal sense of the term) the "religious" ceremony taking place. He shows this by not participating actively. He simply sits there and is present only physically, but not uniting himself spiritually to what is taking place. That is permissible and is taught by all the moralists before Vatican 2.


    Offline Emile

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    Re: The real issue between occasionally and never attending NO
    « Reply #17 on: July 25, 2021, 04:42:13 PM »
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  • You're a convert, so how would you know everything?  Fr Wathen wrote his book "The Great Sacrilege" in 1971.  He was against the new mass 100% from the get-go.  There were many other priests in the 70s and 80s that agreed with him.  But most are now dead.  Once Tradition merged into mainly the sspx and sspv in the 90s, the large majority of independent priests died out and were replaced by younger ones, most of whom were wimpy on the new mass.  That's why most of you on here are wishy-washy on it.
    .
    If anyone wants to read Fr Wathen's book, for free, there is a website which has it posted:
    http://www.dailycatholic.org/indextgs.htm

    It would have saved a tremendous amount of time if you had admitted from the beginning that you have taken Fr. Wathen's book from 1971 as your primary guide.


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    2. All churches where the "New Mass" is "celebrated" must be regarded as desecrated sanctuaries, in that "impious and sordid actions" have been committed there. (Canon 1172, Par. 1.3.). Therefore, the True Mass should not be offered in them, nor should anyone attend the True Mass offered in them. Further, other services which are held in such churches must be avoided if they have any connection with the "celebration" of the "New Mass." These include Benediction, Confirmations, marriages, funerals, etc. It would seem that the only acceptable reasons one might have for entering these churches at all is to attend a Baptism or go to Confession. At this statement, some may find themselves bestirred as they have not been from the beginning of this writing until now. They will say: "Now, this is too much! We may not even attend weddings and funerals in our own churches? Why, we have always been allowed to go to Protestant churches for such occasions!" My answer is: Eureka! Now you are catching on! It is permissible to go to Protestant churches for social reasons. But such services, no matter how greatly they differ fro the Catholic liturgy, or how greatly they resemble it, and no matter how dissident their doctrine, are not to be regarded as irreverent Mimicries of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. Of set purpose, Protestant services are not and explicitly claim not to be the Eternal Sacrifice of the Mass. Perhaps before we are finished here, the meaning of the Revolution will have become clearer. For, truly, this is our situation: Though the "New Mass," those who treasure the Faith and who fear God have been virtually excluded from their own places of worship, just as Christ Himself, His Mother, and the angels and saints have been rudely cast out. Surely we should not be surprised. Did not our Divine Redeemer warn us: "The servant is not greater than his master. If they have persecuted Me, they will also persecute you" (Jn. 15:20).

    He unambiguously admits what several people have pointed out:

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    It is permissible to go to Protestant churches for social reasons.

    His objection is that he thinks the NO mass is a special form of blasphemy that is beyond what any protestant has tried to do. While I respect Fr. Wathen, I think it is possible for someone of good will and knowledge to disagree with some of his assessments and practical conclusions (as almost all trad clergy do).
    As has been pointed out the early protestants were Catholic Bishops and Priests who created rites designed to destroy particular Catholic doctrines while still claiming to be the Church of Christ. Other than the NO has succeeded in occupying the Vatican I don't see that much difference.
    Notice that Fr. Wathen says it is permissible to witness a NO baptism and even to go to confession in the NO. Do you agree with that?

    In the exchanges on this subject you have fallen into hurling insults and questioning the sincerity of Faith of other members.

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    Does Tradition/Truth not matter to you?

    I think it a reasonable assumption that most of the regular posters on CI are here because they take the Faith seriously. Your behavior towards them is reprehensible.


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    You need to study/pray more.

    As I politely suggested before: "take your own counsel."

    “It's easy to be a naive idealist. It's easy to be a cynical realist. It's quite another thing to have no illusions and still hold the inner flame.”
     M.-L. von Franz

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: The real issue between occasionally and never attending NO
    « Reply #18 on: July 25, 2021, 05:55:05 PM »
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    Other than the NO has succeeded in occupying the Vatican I don't see that much difference. 
    :facepalm:  You can disagree with Fr Wathen all you want; he’s not infallible.  But don’t act like the NO is the same as a Protestant service.  The NO is “protestantized”, but that doesn’t mean it’s the same as a Protestant service.  If you can’t tell the difference, theologically, then you don’t understand the Mass.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: The real issue between occasionally and never attending NO
    « Reply #19 on: July 25, 2021, 06:02:55 PM »
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    I think it is possible for someone of good will and knowledge to disagree with some of his assessments and practical conclusions (as almost all trad clergy do)

    "As most all trad clergy do"...Now, today, at the present moment.  It was not always so.
    .
    These are the kind of bad-willed, half-truth arguments that tick me off.  If you want to debate fairly, then don't sneak in phrases which are stupidly unaware of history.


    Offline Nadir

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    Re: The real issue between occasionally and never attending NO
    « Reply #20 on: July 25, 2021, 07:22:27 PM »
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  • In the exchanges on this subject you have fallen into hurling insults and questioning the sincerity of Faith of other members.

    I think it a reasonable assumption that most of the regular posters on CI are here because they take the Faith seriously. Your behavior towards them is reprehensible.


    As I politely suggested before: "take your own counsel."
    Well said, Emille.
    Help of Christians, guard our land from assault or inward stain,
    Let it be what God has planned, His new Eden where You reign.

    +RIP 2024

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: The real issue between occasionally and never attending NO
    « Reply #21 on: July 25, 2021, 07:34:43 PM »
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  • Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: The real issue between occasionally and never attending NO
    « Reply #22 on: July 25, 2021, 07:51:38 PM »
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    In the exchanges on this subject you have fallen into hurling insults and questioning the sincerity of Faith of other members.
    And people are saying Stubborn and I are against Canon Law, and are extremists.  That's an attack on our Faith too.
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    Pot meet kettle.
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    I think it a reasonable assumption that most of the regular posters on CI are here because they take the Faith seriously. Your behavior towards them is reprehensible.

    :laugh2:  Grow up.  We're all adults here.


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: The real issue between occasionally and never attending NO
    « Reply #23 on: July 25, 2021, 08:27:13 PM »
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    Pax, if you have a pre-Vatican 2 book of theology, you can look this up for yourself. It's right there in Jone, if you have that.

      :facepalm:  Applying pre-V2 rules to V2. 
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    Someone attending a funeral or wedding is not actively participating in the false worship.
    A protestant wedding doesn't have "false worship".  It's a saturday wedding; it's a natural law good act.  Quit comparing a Sunday protestant service to a protestant wedding.
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    He is merely being present at an important occasion, and shows his lack of acknowledgment of the false worship by refusing to participate in it.
    :laugh1:  If you truly want to show a "lack of acknowledgement" then you don't show up.  "I'm going to cancel plans to attend a wedding, dress up in a suit, drive to a church...all to "not acknowledge" something."  :facepalm:


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    This isn't exactly a new question that no one ever heard of. This is the universal teaching before Vatican 2.

    It is a new question, because saturday protestant weddings didn't have fake masses. 

    Offline Emile

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    Re: The real issue between occasionally and never attending NO
    « Reply #24 on: July 25, 2021, 10:26:02 PM »
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  • "As most all trad clergy do"...Now, today, at the present moment.  It was not always so.
    .
    These are the kind of bad-willed, half-truth arguments that tick me off.  If you want to debate fairly, then don't sneak in phrases which are stupidly unaware of history.
    Did you ever consider posting evidence that most or many trad clergy used to hold the position that you are advocating?
    “It's easy to be a naive idealist. It's easy to be a cynical realist. It's quite another thing to have no illusions and still hold the inner flame.”
     M.-L. von Franz

    Offline Emile

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    Re: The real issue between occasionally and never attending NO
    « Reply #25 on: July 25, 2021, 10:36:07 PM »
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  • And people are saying Stubborn and I are against Canon Law, and are extremists.  That's an attack on our Faith too.
    Where have I said these things?

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    :laugh2:  Grow up.  We're all adults here.

    Yes we are adults, maybe we should try to act like it.
    “It's easy to be a naive idealist. It's easy to be a cynical realist. It's quite another thing to have no illusions and still hold the inner flame.”
     M.-L. von Franz


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: The real issue between occasionally and never attending NO
    « Reply #26 on: July 25, 2021, 11:45:07 PM »
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    Where have I said these things? 
    :facepalm:  Are you the only one on this thread?

    Offline Sgt Rock USMC

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    Re: The real issue between occasionally and never attending NO
    « Reply #27 on: July 26, 2021, 12:03:58 PM »
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  • Someone attending a funeral or wedding is not actively participating in the false worship. He is merely being present at an important occasion..
    I don't mean to derail the thread, but how is the funeral or wedding of a heretic an "important occasion"?

    Offline Emile

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    Re: The real issue between occasionally and never attending NO
    « Reply #28 on: July 26, 2021, 04:51:14 PM »
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  • I don't mean to derail the thread, but how is the funeral or wedding of a heretic an "important occasion"?
    Your fellow Marine, who is a heretic, gets killed saving your life. Do you attend his funeral?
    “It's easy to be a naive idealist. It's easy to be a cynical realist. It's quite another thing to have no illusions and still hold the inner flame.”
     M.-L. von Franz

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: The real issue between occasionally and never attending NO
    « Reply #29 on: July 26, 2021, 05:02:43 PM »
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    Your fellow Marine, who is a heretic, gets killed saving your life. Do you attend his funeral?

    Yes, you attend his funeral at the cemetery.  You skip the mass at the NO church or protestant building.
    .
    Emile, your failure to make distinctions is your problem.  It's "all or none" for you.  That's not how life works.
    You also, because you're a woman, put too much emphasis on society/family and not enough emphasis on principles/facts.  God made women to be this way, but it's not all good.  You need to recognize you have this built in bias and beware.