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Author Topic: The Ordinary Infallible Magisterium and the Authentic Magisterium  (Read 16799 times)

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Offline Kephapaulos

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  • http://www.catholicapologetics.info/modernproblems/vatican2/ordinary.htm

    I am especially interested about what the sedevacantists wouls have to say about this article.







    Clear Ideas on the Ordinary Magisterium

    This excellent article, which was originally printed in the January 2002 issue of the SI SI NO NO, masterfully addresses this crucial issue head-on.


    Fr. Le Floch, superior of the French Seminary in Rome, announced in 1926:

        "The heresy which is now being born will become the most dangerous of all; the exaggeration of the respect due to the Pope and the illegitimate extension of his infallibility."

    One of his students was none other than the future, Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre.

    What worries Catholics most in the current crisis in the Church is precisely the "problem of the Pope." We need very clear ideas on this question. We must avoid shipwreck to the right and to the left, either by the spirit of rebellion or, on the other hand, by an inappropriate and servile obedience. The serious error which is behind many current disasters is the belief that the "Authentic Magisterium" is nothing other than the "Ordinary Magisterium."

        The "Authentic Magisterium" cannot be so simply identified with the Ordinary Magisterium. In fact, the Ordinary Magisterium can be infallible and non-infallible, and it is only in this second case that it is called the "Authentic Magisterium." The Dictionnaire de Théologie Catholique [hereafter referred to as DTC -Ed.] under the heading of "papal infallibility" (vol. VII, col. 1699ff) makes the following distinctions:

    there is the "infallible or ex cathedra papal definition in the sense defined by Vatican I" (col.1699);

    there is the "infallible papal teaching which flows from the pope’s Ordinary Magisterium" (col.1705);

    there is "non-infallible papal teaching" (col.1709).

        Similarly, Salaverri, in his Sacrae Theologiae Summa (vol. I, 5th ed., Madrid, B.A.C.) distinguishes the following:

    Extraordinary Infallible Papal Magisterium (no. 592ff);

    Ordinary Infallible Papal Magisterium (no. 645ff);

    Papal Magisterium that is mere authenticuм, that is, only "authentic" or "authorized" as regards the person himself, not as regards his infallibility (no.659ff).

        While he always has full and supreme doctrinal authority, the pope does not always exercise it at its highest level that is at the level of infallibility. As the theologians say, he is like a giant who does not always use his full strength. What follows is this:

    "It would be incorrect to say that the pope is infallible simply by possessing papal authority," as we read in the Acts of Vatican I (Coll. L ac. 399b). This would be equivalent to saying that the pope’s authority and his infallibility are the same thing.

    It is necessary to know "what degree of assent is due to the decrees of the sovereign pontiff when he is teaching at a level which is not that of infallibility, i.e., when he is not exercising the supreme degree of his doctrinal authority" (Salaverri, op.cit., no.659).

    Error by Excess and/or By Defect

        Unfortunately this three-fold distinction between the Extraordinary Magisterium, the Ordinary Infallible Magisterium, and the authentic non-infallible Magisterium, has fallen into oblivion. This has resulted in two opposite errors in the crisis situation of the Church at the present time: the error by excess of those who extend papal infallibility to all acts of the pope, without distinction; and the error by defect of those who restrict infallibility to definitions that have been uttered ex cathedra.

        The error by excess actually eliminates the Ordinary Non-Infallible or "Authentic" Magisterium and inevitably leads either to Sedevacantism or to servile obedience. The attitude of the people of this second category is, "The pope is always infallible and so we always owe him blind obedience."

        The error by defect eliminates the Ordinary Infallible Magisterium. This is precisely the error of the neo-Modernists, who devalue the ordinary papal Magisterium and the "Roman tradition" which they find so inconvenient. They say, "The pope is infallible only in his Extraordinary Magisterium, so we can sweep away 2000 years of ordinary papal Magisterium."

        Both of these errors obscure the precise notion of the Ordinary Magisterium, which includes the Ordinary Infallible Magisterium and the ordinary, "authentic," non-infallible Magisterium.

    Confusion and Controversy

        These two opposing errors are not new. They were denounced even before Vatican II. In 1954, Fr. Labourdette, O.P., wrote:

        "Many persons have retained very naive ideas about what they learned concerning the personal infallibility of the sovereign pontiff in the solemn and abnormal exercise of his power of teaching. For some, every word of the supreme pontiff will in some way partake of the value of an infallible teaching, requiring the absolute assent of theological faith; for others, acts which are not presented with the manifest conditions of a definition ex cathedra will seem to have no greater authority than that of any private teacher (Revue Thomiste LIV, 1954, p.196)!"

        Dom Paul Nau has also written about the confusion that has arisen between the pope’s authority and his infallibility:

        By a strange reversal, while the personal infallibility of the pope in a solemn judgment, so long disputed, was definitely placed beyond all controversy, it is the Ordinary Magisterium of the Roman Church, which seems to have been lost sight of.

        It all happened -as is not unheard of elsewhere in the history of doctrine -as if the very brilliance of the Vatican I definition had cast into shadow the truth hitherto universally recognized; we might almost say, as if the definition of the infallibility of the solemn judgments made these henceforth the unique method by which the sovereign pontiff would put forward the rule of faith [Pope or Church?, Angelus Press, 1998, p.13].

        On the temporary fading of a doctrine from Catholic consciousness, see the entry "dogme" in DTC (vol. IV).

        Dom Nau also mentioned the disastrous consequences which flow from this identification of the pope’s authority and his infallibility:

        No place would be left, intermediate between such private acts and the solemn papal judgments, for a teaching which, while authentic, is not equally guaranteed throughout all its various expressions. If things are looked at from this angle, the very notion of the Ordinary Magisterium becomes, properly speaking, unthinkable [Pope or Church?, p.4].

        Dom Nau considered from where this phenomenon had developed:

        Since 1870 [the year of Vatican I -Ed.], manuals of theology have taken the formulae in which their statements of doctrine have been framed from the actual wording of the Council text. None of these treated in its own right of the ordinary teaching of the pope, which has accordingly, little by little, slipped out of sight and all pontifical teaching has seemed to be reduced solely to solemn definitions ex cathedra. Once attention was entirely directed to these, it became customary to consider the doctrinal interventions of the Holy See solely from the standpoint of the solemn judgment, that of a judgment which ought in itself to bring to the doctrine all the necessary guarantees of certainty (ibid., p.13).

        This is partly true, but we should not forget that liberal theology had already been advertising its reductive agenda. That is why Pius IX, even before Vatican I (1870) felt obliged to warn German theologians that divine faith’s submission "must not be restricted only to those points which have been defined" (Letter to Archbishop of Munich, Dec. 21, 1863).

        The naive ideas entertained by many on the question of papal infallibility after Vatican I played into the hands of the liberal theology. In fact, while the two errors are diametrically opposed, they are at one in equating papal authority and papal infallibility. What is the difference between them? The error by excess, regarding as infallible everything that comes from papal authority, stretches the pope’s infallibility to the extent of his authority. The error by defect, considering only those things authorized that emanate from the ex cathedra infallibility, restricts papal authority to the scope of the infallibility of the pope’s Extraordinary Magisterium. Thus both errors have the same effect, namely, to obscure the very notion of the Ordinary Magisterium and, consequently, the particular nature of the Ordinary Infallible Magisterium. It is essential for us to rediscover this notion and its nature because they are of the greatest importance in helping us to get our bearings in the time of crisis.

    The Ordinary Magisterium in Shadow: Humanae Vitae and Ordinatio Sacerdotalis

        The lack of clear ideas on the pope’s Ordinary Magisterium appeared in full with Pope Paul VI’s encyclical, Humanae Vitae, and more recently with Ordinatio Sacerdotalis, in which Pope John Paul II repeated the Church’s refusal to ordain women.

        When Humanae Vitae came out, various theologians indicated that the notion of ordinary papal Magisterium was obscured. Generally speaking, those who supported the infallibility of Humanae Vitae deduced "the proof [of this infallibility -Ed.] on the basis of the Church’s constant and universal Authentic Magisterium, which has never been abandoned and therefore was already definitive in earlier centuries." In other words, on the basis of the Ordinary Infallible Magisterium (E. Lio, Humanae Vitae ed infallibilità, Libreria Ed. Vaticana, p.38). They should have noticed that even the notion of the Ordinary Infallible Magisterium and its particularity [its constancy and universality -Ed.] had been effaced from the minds not only of the ordinary faithful but also of the theologians. Cardinal Siri commented:

        By presenting only two possible hypotheses for the case in question [the encyclical Humanae Vitae -Ed.], namely, an ex cathedra definition [which was avoided -Ed.] that is, proceeding from the solemn Magisterium, and that of the Authentic Magisterium [which does not of itself imply infallibility -Ed.], a grave sophism in enumeration has been committed. It is in fact a serious error, because there is another possible hypothesis, i.e., that of the Ordinary Infallible Magisterium. It is very strange how certain people are at pains to avoid speaking about this... It is necessary to realize that there is not only a solemn Magisterium and a simply Authentic Magisterium; between these two there is also the Ordinary Magisterium which is endowed with the charism of infallibility (Renovatio, Oct.-Dec., 1968).

        The same "sophism of enumeration" was pointed out 30 years later by Archbishop Bertone, speaking against the opposition to Ordinatio Sacerdotalis. On this occasion he explicitly denounced the tendency "to substitute de facto the concept of authority for that of infallibility" (L’Osservatore Romano, Dec. 20, 1996).

        In fact, it is not only the Ordinary Infallible Magisterium which has fallen into oblivion, but, since authority and infallibility have been equated, the distinction between Ordinary Infallible Magisterium and the ordinary Authentic Magisterium has also been consigned to oblivion. After Vatican I, as Dom Nau wrote,

        Catholics have no longer any reason for hesitating about the authority to be recognized in the dogmatic judgments pronounced by the sovereign pontiff: their infallibility has been solemnly defined in the Constitution Pastor Aeternus... But definitions of this sort are relatively rare. The pontifical docuмents which come most frequently before the Christian today are encyclicals, allocutions, radio messages which usually derive from the Ordinary Magisterium or ordinary teaching of the Church. Unfortunately, this is where confusions remain still possible and do occur, alas! all too often (op. cit. p.3).

        Thus, we will devote ourselves, not to the Extraordinary Magisterium (whose infallibility is generally acknowledged), but to the Ordinary Magisterium. Once we have illustrated the conditions under which it is infallible, it will be clear that outside these conditions we are in the presence of the "authentic" Magisterium to which, in normal times, we should accord due consideration. In abnormal times, however, it would be a fatal error to equate this "authentic" Magisterium with the infallible Magisterium (whether "extraordinary" or "ordinary").

    The Point of the Question

        "The infallible guarantee of divine assistance is not limited solely to the acts of the Solemn Magisterium; it also extends to the Ordinary Magisterium, although it does not cover and assure all the latter’s acts in the same way" (Fr. Labourdette, O.P., Revue Thomiste 1950, p.38).

        Thus, the assent due to the Ordinary Magisterium "can range from simple respect right up to a true act of faith." (Archbishop Guerry, La Doctrine Sociale de l’Église, Paris, Bonne Presse 1957, p.172). It is most important, therefore, to know precisely when the Roman pope’s Ordinary Magisterium is endowed with the charism of infallibility.

        Since the pope alone possesses the same infallibility conferred by Jesus Christ upon his Church [i.e., the pope plus the bishops in communion with him, cf. Dz.1839), we must conclude that only the pope, in his Ordinary Magisterium, is infallible in the same degree and under the same conditions as the Ordinary Magisterium of the Church is.

        Thus the truth that is taught must be proposed as already defined, or as what has always been believed or accepted in the Church, or attested by the unanimous and constant agreement of theologians as being a Catholic truth [which is therefore] strictly obligatory for all the faithful (Infaillibilite du Pape, DTC, vol.VII, col.1705).

        This condition was recalled by Cardinal Felici in the context of Humanae Vitae:

        On this problem we must remember that a truth may be sure and certain, and hence it may be obligatory, even without the sanction of an ex cathedra definition. So it is with the encyclical Humanae Vitae, in which the pope, the supreme pontiff of the Church, utters a truth which has been constantly taught by the Church’s Magisterium and which accords with the precepts of Revelation (L’Osservatore Romano, Oct. 19, 1968, p.3).

        No one, in fact, can refuse to believe what has certainly been revealed by God. And it is not only those things that have been defined as such that have certainly been revealed by God; the latter also include whatever has been always and everywhere taught by the Church’s Ordinary Magisterium as having been revealed by God. More recently, Archbishop Bertone reminded us that the Ordinary Pontifical Magisterium can teach a doctrine as definitive [bold emphasis in original] in virtue of the fact that it has been constantly preserved and held by Tradition.

        Such is the case with Ordinatio Sacerdotalis when it repeats the invalidity of the priestly ordination of women, which has always been held by the Church with "unanimity and stability" (L’Osservatore Romano, Dec. 20, 1996).

        Cardinal Siri, still speaking of Humanae Vitae in the issue of the review Renovatio to which we have referred, explains as follows:

        "The question, therefore, must be put objectively thus: given that [Humanae Vitae] is not an act of the Infallible Magisterium and that it therefore does not of itself provide the guarantee of ‘irreformability’ and certitude, would not its substance be nonetheless guaranteed by the Ordinary Magisterium under the conditions under which the Ordinary Magisterium is itself known to be infallible?"

    After giving a summary of the Church’s continuous tradition on contraception, from the Didache to the encyclical Casti Connubii of Pope Pius XI, Cardinal Siri concludes:

        "This Encyclical recapitulated the ancient teaching and the habitual teaching of today. This means that we can say that the conditions for the Ordinary irreformable [i.e., infallible -Ed.] Magisterium were met. The period of widespread turbulence is a very recent fact and has nothing to do with the serene possession [of the Magisterium -Ed.] over many centuries (Renovatio, op.cit.)."

        It is an error, therefore, to extend infallibility unconditionally to the whole of the Ordinary Magisterium of the pope, whether he is speaking urbi et orbi or just addressing pilgrims. It is true that the infallibility of the Extraordinary Magisterium is not enough for the Church; the Extraordinary Magisterium is a rare event, whereas "faith needs infallibility and it needs it every day," as Cardinal Siri himself said (Renovatio, op.cit.). But Cardinal Siri is too good a theologian to forget that even the pope’s infallibility has conditions attached to it. If the Ordinary Magisterium is to be infallible, it must be traditional (cf. Salaverri, loc. cit.). If it breaks with Tradition, the Ordinary Magisterium cannot claim any infallibility. Here we see very clearly the very special nature of the Ordinary Infallible Magisterium, to which we must devote some attention.

    The Special Nature of the Ordinary Infallible Magisterium

        As we have seen, Cardinal Siri observes that the Humanae Vitae, even if it is not an act of the ex cathedra Magisterium, would still furnish the guarantee of infallibility, not "of itself," but insofar as it recapitulates "the ancient teaching and the habitual teaching of today" (Renovatio, op. cit.). In fact, in contrast to the Extraordinary Magisterium or the Solemn Judgment, the Ordinary Magisterium does not consist in an isolated proposition, pronouncing irrevocably on the Faith and containing its own guarantees of truth, but in a collection of acts which can concur in communicating a teaching.

        This is the normal procedure by which Tradition, in the fullest sense of that term, is handed down;… (Pope or Church?, op. cit. p.10).

        This is precisely why the DTC speaks of "infallible papal teaching which flows from the pope’s Ordinary Magisterium" (loc. cit.). So, while a simple doctrinal presentation [by the pope] can never claim the infallibility of a definition, [this infallibility] nonetheless is rigorously implied when there is a convergence on the same subject in a series of docuмents whose continuity, in itself, excludes all possibility of doubt on the authentic content of the Roman teaching (Dom Nau, Une source doctrinale: Les encycliques, p.75).

        If we fail to take account of this difference, we are obliterating all distinction between the Extraordinary Magisterium and the Ordinary Magisterium:

        "No act of the Ordinary Magisterium as such, taken in isolation, could claim the prerogative which belongs to the supreme judgment. If it did so, it would cease to be the Ordinary Magisterium. An isolated act is infallible only if the supreme Judge engages his whole authority in it so that he cannot go back on it. Such an act cannot be ‘reversible’ without being plainly subject to error. But it is precisely this kind of act, against which there can be no appeal, which constitutes the Solemn [or Extraordinary] Judgment, and which thus differs from the Ordinary Magisterium" (ibid., note 1)."

        It follows that the infallibility of the Ordinary Magisterium, whether of the Universal Church or that of the See of Rome, is not that of a judgment, not that of an act to be considered in isolation, as if it could itself provide all the light necessary for it to be clearly seen. It is that of the guarantee bestowed on a doctrine by the simultaneous or continuous convergence of a plurality of affirmations or explanations, none of which could bring positive certitude if it were taken by itself alone. Certitude can be expected only from the whole complex, but all the parts concur in making up that whole (Pope or Church?, op. cit., p.18).

        Dom Paul Nau explains further:

        "In the case of the [Ordinary] universal Magisterium, this whole complex is that of the concordant teaching of the bishops in communion with Rome; in the case of the Ordinary pontifical Magisterium [i.e., the pope alone -Ed.], it is the continuity of teaching of the successors of Peter: in other words, it is the ‘tradition of the Church of Rome,’ to which Archbishop Gasser appealed at Vatican I (Collana Lacensis, col.404)."

        About this subject, A.C. Martimort wrote:

        "Bossuet’s error consisted in rejecting the infallibility of the pope’s Extraordinary Magisterium; but he performed the signal service of affirming most clearly the infallibility of the Ordinary Magisterium [of the pope] and its specific nature, which means that every particular act bears the risk of error... To sum up: according to the Bishop of Meaux, what applies to the series of Roman popes over time is the same as what applies to the episcopal college dispersed across the world (Le Gallicanisme de Bossuet, Paris, 1953, p.558)."

        In fact, we know that the bishops, individually, are not infallible. Yet the totality of bishops, throughout time and space, in their moral unanimity, do enjoy infallibility. So if one wishes to ascertain the Church’s infallible teaching one must not take the teaching of one particular bishop: it is necessary to look at the "common and continuous teaching" of the episcopate united to the pope, which "cannot deviate from the teaching of Jesus Christ" (E. Piacentini, O.F.M. Conv., Infaillible même dans les causes de canonisation? ENMI, Rome 1994, p.37).

        The same thing applies to the Ordinary Infallible Magisterium of the Roman pope on his own: this Ordinary Magisterium is infallible not because each act is uttered by the pope, but because the particular teaching of which the pope’s act consists "is inserted into a totality and a continuity" (Dom P.Nau, Le encycliques, op. cit.), which is that of the "series of Roman popes over time" (Martimort, op. cit.).

        We can understand why, in their Ordinary Magisterium, the Roman popes have always been careful to associate themselves with their "venerable predecessors," often quoting them at length. "The Church speaks by Our mouth," said Pope Pius XI in the Casti Connubii. Pope Pius XII in Humani Generis, emphasized that "most of the time what is set forth and taught in the encyclicals is already, for other reasons, part of the patrimony of Catholic doctrine."

        The very particular nature of the pope’s Ordinary Infallible Magisterium was quite clear until Vatican I. While this Council was in session, La Civiltà Cattolica, which published (and still publishes) under the direct control of the Holy See, replied in these words to Fr. Gratry, who had criticized Pope Paul IV’s Bull cuм ex Apostolus:

        "We ask Fr. Gratry, in all serenity, whether he believes that the Bull of Paul IV is an isolated act, so to speak, or an act that is comparable to others of the same kind in the series of Roman popes. If he replies that it is an isolated act, his argument proves nothing, for he himself affirms that the Bull of Paul IV contains no dogmatic definition. If he replies, as he must, that this Bull is, in substance, conformable to countless other similar acts of the Holy See, his argument says far more than he would wish. In other words, he is saying that a long succession of Roman popes have made public and solemn acts of immorality and injustice against the principles of human reason, of impiety towards God, and of apostasy against the Gospel (vol. X, series VII, 1870, p.54)."

        This means, in effect, that an "isolated act" of the pope is infallible only in the context of a "dogmatic definition"; outside dogmatic definitions, i.e., in the Ordinary Magisterium, infallibility is guaranteed by the complex of "countless other similar acts of the Holy See," or of a "long succession" of the successors of Peter.

    Practical Application

        Because it declared itself to be non-dogmatic, the charism of infallibility cannot be claimed for the last Council, except insofar as it was re-iterating traditional teaching. Moreover, what is offered as the Ordinary Pontifical Magisterium of the recent popes -apart from certain acts -cannot claim the qualification of the "Ordinary Infallible Magisterium." The pontifical docuмents on the novelties which have troubled and confused the consciences of the faithful manifest no concern whatsoever to adhere to the teaching of "venerable predecessors." They cannot adhere to them because they have broken with them. Look at the footnotes of Dominus Jesus; it’s as if the Magisterium of the preceding popes did not exist. It is clear that when today’s popes contradict the traditional Magisterium of yesterday’s popes, our obedience is due to yesterday’s popes: this is a manifest sign of a period of grave ecclesial crisis, of abnormal times in the life of the Church.

        Finally, it is evident that the New Theology, which is so unscrupulous in contradicting the traditional teaching of the Roman Pontiffs, contradicts the Infallible Pontifical Magisterium; accordingly, a Catholic must in all conscience reject and actively attack it.

    The Almost Total Eclipse of the "Authentic" Magisterium

        The Church’s current crisis is not at the level of the Extraordinary or Ordinary Infallible Magisterium. This would be simply impossible. Furthermore, it is not at the level of the Extraordinary Infallible Magisterium because the Council did not wish to be a dogmatic one, and because Pope Paul VI himself indicated what theological "note" it carried: "Ordinary Magisterium; that is, it is clearly authentic" (General Audience of Dec. 1, 1966: Encycliques et discours de Paul VI, Ed. Paoline, 1966, pp.51, 52). Lastly, it is not at the level of the Ordinary Infallible Magisterium. The turmoil and division in the Catholic world have been provoked by a break with this doctrinal continuity. Such a break is the very opposite of the Ordinary Infallible Magisterium. Thus Paul VI’s Humanae Vitae, or John Paul II’s intervention against women’s ordination in Ordinatio Sacerdotalis caused no dismay to the Church’s obedient sons.

        The present crisis is at the level of what is presented as the simply "authentic" Magisterium, which, as Cardinal Siri reminds us, "does not of itself imply infallibility" (Renovatio, op.cit.). But are we really dealing with the "authentic" Magisterium?

        The author of Iota Unum [available from Angelus Press. Price: $24.95] wrote:

        "Nowadays it is no longer the case that every word of the pope constitutes Magisterium. Now, very frequently, it is no more than the expression of views, ideas and considerations that are to be found disseminated throughout the Church,... and of doctrines that have spread and become dominant in much theology (Eglise et Contre-Église au Concile Vatican II, Second Theological Congress of SI SI NO NO, Jan. 1996)."

        The Magisterium, however, even in its non-infallible form, should always be the teaching of the divine Word, even if uttered with a lesser degree of certitude. Nowadays, it is very often the case that "the Pope does not manifest the divine word entrusted to him," but rather "expresses his personal views" which are those of the New Theology. Here we are faced with a "manifestation of the decadence of the Church’s Ordinary [‘authentic’] Magisterium," a decadence which "is creating a very grave crisis for the Church, because it is the Church’s central point which is suffering from it" (ibid.).

        Can one really speak of the "authentic" Pontifical Magisterium, or would it be more accurate to speak of an almost total eclipse of the Authentic Pontifical Magisterium in the face of an analogous crisis at the level of the episcopal Magisterium?

    The Danger of Being Drawn into Error

        Catholic are least prepared to meet the crisis of the Authentic Pontifical Magisterium because of the confusion in their minds regarding the distinction between the pope’s Ordinary Infallible Magisterium and his simply "authentic" Ordinary Magisterium. This problem was pointed out before Vatican II; it has caused and continues to cause Catholics to be drawn into error who wrongly believe that they should give equal assent to the pope’s every word, neglecting the distinctions and precise conditions which we now review.

        "The command to believe firmly and without examination of the matter in hand... can be truly binding only if the authority concerned is infallible" (Billot, De Ecclesia, thesis XVII). That is why a firm and unconditional assent is demanded in the case of the Infallible Magisterium (whether Extraordinary or Ordinary).

        As regards those non-infallible doctrinal decisions given by the pope or by the Roman congregations, there is a strict duty of obedience which obliges us to give an internal assent...that is prudent and habitually excludes all reasonable doubt, but this assent is legitimized [not by infallibility, but rather] by the high degree of prudence with which the ecclesiastical authority habitually acts in such circuмstances" (entry "Église" in DTC, vol.IV, col.2209).

        This is why we owe the "authentic" Magisterium not a blind and unconditional assent but a prudent and conditional one:

        Since not everything taught by the Ordinary Magisterium is infallible, we must ask what kind of assent we should give to its various decisions. The Christian is required to give the assent of faith to all the doctrinal and moral truths defined by the Church’s Magisterium. He is not required to give the same assent to teaching imparted by the sovereign pontiff that is not imposed on the whole Christian body as a dogma of faith. In this case it suffices to give that inner and religious assent which we give to legitimate ecclesiastical authority. This is not an absolute assent, because such decrees are not infallible, but only a prudential and conditional assent, since in questions of faith and morals there is a presumption in favor of one’s superior... Such prudential assent does not eliminate the possibility of submitting the doctrine to a further examination, if that seems required by the gravity of the question (Nicolas Jung, Le Magistère de l’Èglise, 1935, pp.153, 154).

        Unfortunately, all these truths have disappeared from Catholic consciousness, just as the notion of the "authentic" Magisterium has. The Catholic world is all the more in danger of being drawn into error, since it nourishes the naive and erroneous conviction that God has never permitted the popes to be mistaken, even in the Ordinary Magisterium (and here no distinctions are drawn), and so imagines that the same assent should always be given to the papal Magisterium -which in no way corresponds to the Church’s teaching.

    Infallibility and the "Grace of State"

        Our discussion of the "grace of state" of the sovereign pontiff proceeds in the context of the Authentic Magisterium. When the pope engages his infallibility, he enjoys a divine assistance that is entirely special, over and above the grace of state. Nonetheless, even infallibility does not reduce him to the level of an automaton. In fact:

        The Divine assistance does not relieve the bearer of the infallible doctrinal power of the obligation of taking pains to know the truth, especially by means of the study of the sources of Revelation (Dz 1836).

        That is why, in his Infallible Magisterium, the pope enjoys:

    the positive assistance of the Holy Spirit so that he can attain the truth, and

    the negative assistance which preserves him from error. Ultimately, in a case where a pope, by negligence or ill will, were to fail in his duty of seeking out the truth by the appropriate means, infallibility guarantees that God, through a purely negative assistance, would prevent the proclamation ex cathedra of an error.

        This guarantee does not exist in the case of the Authentic Magisterium because it does not enjoy the charism of infallibility. That is why everything is entrusted to the grace of state alone, which impels the pope to act with that "high degree of prudence" which, normally, shines forth from the Authentic Magisterium of the successors of Peter. If, however, a pope were to fail to attain this, no divine promise guarantees God will intervene and stop him.

        In such a case, indeed, the Catholic world would run the risk of being drawn into error. But it would not be because the pope lacked infallibility; under the due conditions, he would enjoy infallibility just like his predecessors. Nor would it be because he was deprived of the grace of state, but rather that he had not laid hold of that grace. The risk of this is all the greater since the principles we are here setting forth have fallen into oblivion.

        When the Catholic world had a clear grasp of these principles the danger of being drawn into error was far less. In the history of the Church, we find it was the justified resistance of cardinals, Catholic universities, Catholic princes, religious, and simple faithful which blocked the faux pas of a number of popes, such as Popes John XXII and Sixtus V, concerning whom Saint Robert Bellarmine wrote to Clement VIII:

        "Your Holiness knows the danger to which Sixtus V exposed himself and all the Church, when he undertook to correct Holy Scripture according to the lights of his own personal knowledge. Truly, I do not know whether the Church has ever been subject to a more grave danger (entry Jesuites: travaux sur les Saintes Ecritures in F. Vigouroux, Dictionnaire de la Bible, vol.III, cols.1407-1408)."

        This danger was identified and rejected by the Catholic world. In reality, those who attribute infallibility always to the pope are doing a service neither to themselves, nor to the Church, nor to the pope himself, as the present times are plainly showing us. A pope’s faux pas are a severe trial for the entire Catholic world.

    Normal Times and Abnormal Times

        In normal times the faithful can rely on the "authentic" Pontifical Magisterium with the same confidence with which they rely on the Infallible Magisterium. In normal times, it would be a very grave error to fail to take due account of even the simply "authentic" Magisterium of the Roman pope. This is because if everyone were permitted, in the presence of an act of the teaching authority, to suspend his assent or even to doubt or positively reject it on the grounds that it did not imply an infallible definition, it would result in the ecclesiastical Magisterium becoming practically illusory in concrete terms, because the ecclesiastical Magisterium is only relatively rarely expressed in definitions of this kind (DTC, vol. III, col.1110).

        It must not be forgotten (as it has been forgotten nowadays) that the security of the Authentic Magisterium is not linked to infallibility, but to the "high degree of prudence" with which the successors of Peter "habitually" proceed, and to the "habitual" care they take never to swerve from the explicit and tacit teaching of their predecessors. Once this prudence and care are missing, we are no longer in normal times. In such a situation it would be a fatal error to equate the Authentic Magisterium of the Roman pontiff with his Infallible Magisterium (Ordinary or Extraordinary). These abnormal times are rare, thanks be to God, but they are not impossible. If we are not to be drawn into error, we urgently need to remember that the assent due to the non-infallible Magisterium is

        "...that of inward assent, not as of faith, but as of prudence, the refusal of which could not escape the mark of temerity, unless the doctrine rejected was an actual novelty or involved a manifest discordance between the pontifical affirmation and the doctrine which had hitherto been taught (Dom P.Nau, Pope or Church?, op. cit. p.29)."

        Dom Nau makes it clear that this prudential assent does not apply in the case of a teaching that is "already traditional," which would belong to the sphere of the Ordinary Infallible Magisterium. However, in the case of a teaching which is not "already traditional," the reservation which interests us does apply: "unless the doctrine rejected... involved a manifest discordance between the pontifical affirmation and the doctrine which had hitherto been taught." Such a situation would legitimize the doctrine’s rejection and would imply no "mark of temerity." Is this kind of "discordance" an impossible hypothesis? Dom Nau, whose attachment to the papacy was without doubt, wrote:

        "This is not a case which can be excluded a priori since it does not concern a formal definition. But, as Bossuet himself says, ‘It is so extraordinary that it does not happen more than twice or thrice in a thousand years’ (Pope or Church?, p.29)."

        In such a case, refusing one’s assent does not only not manifest temerity: it is a positive duty. The "discordance" with "doctrine which had hitherto been taught" dispenses the Catholic from all obligation to obedience on this point:

        The general principle is that one owes obedience to the orders of a superior unless, in a particular case, the order appears manifestly unjust. Similarly, a Catholic is bound to adhere interiorly to the teachings of legitimate authority until it becomes evident to him that a particular assertion is erroneous (DTC, vol.III, col.1110).

        In the case we are examining, evidence of error is provided where an act of the Authentic Magisterium is discordant with the Extraordinary or Ordinary Infallible Magisterium, i.e., discordant with the traditional doctrine, to which the Catholic conscience is bound for eternity.

    Faith Does Not Require the Abdication of Logic

        In conclusion we shall excerpt the text of a theologian, whose passing is much to be regretted, who had a very clear grasp of the doctrine we are recalling here, and who knew well that it had been brought into confusion by the New Theologians. In arguing against Joseph Kleiner on the manifest contradiction between Pope Pius VI’s Auctorem Fidei, which condemns concelebration, and Pope Paul VI’s Instructio, which encourages it, Fr. Joseph de Sainte-Marie, O.C.D., wrote:

        Has it ever been known for the Magisterium to intervene against a declaration of the Magisterium? In his mind [i.e., of Joseph Kleiner -Ed.] the reply must be in the negative: No, for the sake of the infallibility of the Magisterium. This infallibility does imply, of course, that the Church cannot contradict herself, but only under a condition which our author has forgotten, namely, that she engages the fullness of her infallibility in such an act; or, in the case of the Ordinary Magisterium (and we must take great care not to minimize the latter’s authority), provided that it conforms to what the Infallible Magisterium teaches, either in its solemn acts or in its constant teaching. If these conditions are not respected, there is nothing impossible about one ‘intervention’ of the Magisterium being in contradiction with another. There is nothing to trouble one’s faith here, for infallibility is not involved; but people’s Catholic sensibilities are right to be scandalized at it, for such facts reveal a profound disorder in the exercise of the Magisterium. To deny the existence of these facts in the name of an erroneous understanding of the Church’s infallibility, and to deny it a priori, is to fly in the face of the demands of theology, of history, and of the most elementary common sense.

        The facts are there. They cannot be denied. We have given an example of them, and others could be given. It will suffice to recall... the Institutio Generalis, which introduces the Novus Ordo Missae, particularly its celebrated Article 7. There the dogmas of the Eucharist and the priesthood were presented in such ambiguous terms, and so obviously orientated towards Protestantism -to say no more -that they had to be rectified. This Institutio, however, constituted an ‘intervention by the Magisterium.’ Should it be accepted on that account, when it was going in a direction manifestly contrary to that of the Council of Trent, in which the Church had engaged her infallibility? If we were to follow the approach urged by Joseph Kleiner and so many others, the answer would be: ‘Yes.’ But to do this we would have to swallow the contradiction by denying that there is a contradiction -which is in itself contradictory. This would be a real abdication of the intellect, and it would leave us defenseless in the face of a principle of authority that would be totally outside the control of truth. Such an attitude is not in conformity with what the Magisterium itself requires of the faithful... Faith demands the submission of the intellect in the face of the Mystery that transcends it, not its abdication when confronted with the demands of intellectual coherence which pertain to its sphere of competence; judgment is a virtue of the intellect. That is why, when a contradiction is evident, as in the two cases we have just cited, the believer’s duty (and, even more, the duty of the theologian) is to address the Magisterium and ask for the said contradiction to be removed (L’Eucharistie, salut du monde, Paris , ed.du Cèdre, 1981, p.56ff).

        To this, nothing need be added, except perhaps to invite readers to pray to the Divine Mercy, through the intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, to remove, as soon as possible, this exceedingly severe trial from the Catholic world.  Hirpinus

    CATHOLIC APOLOGETICS

    "Non nobis, Domine, non nobis; sed nomini tuo da gloriam..." (Ps. 113:9)


    Offline Stubborn

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    « Reply #1 on: January 06, 2017, 05:53:23 AM »
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  • Quote from: Kephapaulos

    I am especially interested about what the sedevacantists would have to say about this article.


    Fr. Le Floch, superior of the French Seminary in Rome, announced in 1926:

        "The heresy which is now being born will become the most dangerous of all; the exaggeration of the respect due to the Pope and the illegitimate extension of his infallibility." .....


    Unfortunately, all these truths have disappeared from Catholic consciousness, just as the notion of the "authentic" Magisterium has. The Catholic world is all the more in danger of being drawn into error, since it nourishes the naive and erroneous conviction that God has never permitted the popes to be mistaken, even in the Ordinary Magisterium (and here no distinctions are drawn), and so imagines that the same assent should always be given to the papal Magisterium -which in no way corresponds to the Church’s teaching.


    I have to still read the rest but this is an excellent article! Thanks for posting this!
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline MarylandTrad

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    « Reply #2 on: January 06, 2017, 10:02:09 AM »
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  • Vatican I speaks of the "ordinary and universal magisterium" when talking about things that have to be believed with divine and Catholic faith. Some sedevacantists try and get around the "universal" part by saying that a teaching does not have to be universal in time, but only in space, for it to be infallible. Hence they say that if all the bishops in the world are teaching a certain doctrine, then that doctrine must be infallible even if it is a new doctrine that wasn't taught universally in times past. I think that there is bad will on the part of the sedevacantist apologists. There are countless quotes from saints who say that in times of confusion, look to tradition (universality in time and space). None of the saints say that in times of confusion look only to what is currently being taught universally in space. That would make no sense. Tradition (universality in time and space) must be the standard.

    St. Vincent of Lerins’ famous dictum in the Commonitorium: “quod semper, quod ubique, et quod ab omnibus… et in eodem sensu.” Universality in time and space.
    "The Blessed Eucharist means nothing to a man who thinks other people can get along without It. The Blessed Eucharist means nothing to a communicant who thinks he needs It but someone else does not. The Blessed Eucharist means nothing to a communicant who offers others any charity ahead of this Charity of the Bread of Life." -Fr. Leonard Feeney, Bread of Life

    Offline Stubborn

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    « Reply #3 on: January 07, 2017, 06:15:20 AM »
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  • Quote from: An even Seven

    It would be against the Church's Dogma of indefectibility that a Pope could set up Universal Customs and Practices that are heretical and
    soul-destroying thus making it something that it's not.


    This is easily refuted, first, since the conciliar popes have already pretty much done whatever they've been able to do in this respect, but the Church has not been destroyed by their doing so, nor can it ever be destroyed by their doing so.

    Second, the people destroy their own souls, no one else on earth is capable of doing that for them. Remember, prior to the revolution, everyone had the same faith, the only Catholics on earth were "trads" - they were everywhere and their numbers were increasing every day all over the world, billions of trads went to 100s of thousands of reverent TLM's celebrated in beautiful Churches all over the world every hour around the clock.

    That was when trad priests and bishops were the only priests and bishops, they were in hospitals, in the confessionals and on the battle fields ready to administer the true sacraments, and on and on I could go - they had the faith, the true Catholic faith - so what happened? They knew better, indeed, if anyone could be expected to know better, it must be those who were reared in the true faith prior to V2.

    No one held a gun to anyone's head, this revolution was the most successful revolution in the history of the world, more amazing is the fact that not even one single drop of blood was spilled as the enemy took over the fort - didn't need to spill blood this time - why? because instead of guns, the enemy used false obedience, lies and slander as their weapons in this revolution.

    Those who had the true faith, those who knew *only* the true faith for their whole lives, finally got what they *really* wanted - they willingly got off the narrow path to heaven for a religion that offered them the wide road to heaven, and they will answer for this before God - do you honestly think it will do them any good at all when they try to plead it's not their fault? That they were fooled? That the pope is to blame? That their parent's are to blame, it's their fault? Or the schools' fault, or the catechisms' fault?

    Nope, no excuses - we stand before God naked, alone and accused - and those lethargic faithful that were raised to know better and who helped usher in this mess will not be able to blame even any "Universal Customs and Practices that are heretical and soul-destroying" for them abandoning the faith of their own free will.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

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    « Reply #4 on: January 08, 2017, 09:31:16 AM »
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  • Quote from: An even Seven
    Quote from: Stubborn
    Quote from: An even Seven

    It would be against the Church's Dogma of indefectibility that a Pope could set up Universal Customs and Practices that are heretical and soul-destroying thus making it something that it's not.


    This is easily refuted


    So go ahead and refute it. What you wrote doesn't even come close.
    Your heretical opinions have already been shown to be non-Catholic in other threads. Especially in The Second Vatican Council thread.


    Thank you AES! Anymore, if I don't get blanketed as being heretical from a sedevacantist in one of the forums, I figure I'm not communicating clearly enough, so thanks. Being called heretical is the only way I know that the  sedevacantists read at least some of what I post.

    You are right, I got off on another tangent - my apologies. You are right again that the acts of the conciliar popes are heretical, but those who lost their faith or otherwise embrace those heresies, destroy their own souls of their own free will - we are the only ones that can ever destroy our souls - Deo Gratias for that I say!

    When we die, all men will be judged in terms of whether they were Catholic or not, if they were not Catholic they will be condemned because they did not receive the doctrine of Christ, they received rather the doctrine of a man, concerning Christ or concerning something else.

    Sedevacantists received a doctrine concerning "something else", which is sedevacantism, which is a doctrine of a man, not a doctrine of Christ. For the sake of your eternity, you had best realize this and know you are playing with eternal fire - for no reason at all. It is not our place to determine the status of the pope. Those who think otherwise do not know the meaning of infallibility nor the limits of the pope's office.  

    As the OP says: "The heresy which is now being born will become the most dangerous of all; the exaggeration of the respect due to the Pope and the illegitimate extension of his infallibility."

    Sedevacantists have convinced themselves that popes cannot do the things which the conciliar popes have actually done - the reason for this is in italics directly above.  
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Stubborn

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    « Reply #5 on: January 09, 2017, 04:36:35 AM »
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  • Quote from: An even Seven
    Quote from: Stubborn

     those who lost their faith or otherwise embrace those heresies, destroy their own souls of their own free will - we are the only ones that can ever destroy our souls - Deo Gratias for that I say!

    When we die, all men will be judged in terms of whether they were Catholic or not, if they were not Catholic they will be condemned because they did not receive the doctrine of Christ, they received rather the doctrine of a man, concerning Christ or concerning something else.


    Stubborn, it's not my intention to get into another 20+ page debate of just me and you going back and forth. We already did that.

    I do however want to address this obsession you have with pointing out that only each individual will be responsible for their own damnation, as if any Catholic would disagree with this. Yet you bring it up a lot.

    When someone uses terms such as "soul-destroying" etc...in reference to the teachings and practices and docuмents of the VII "church", they are not implying that the teachings and practices themselves are literally going to throw souls into hell. An abstract idea cannot do something like that. The point of calling these teachings and practices "soul-destroying" is to point out the damage that will be done by someone adhering to and believing in said teachings. It takes an act of will to believe in these teachings and engage in the practices. Someone may not grasp the errors in them, but they erode one's belief in Catholic teaching. What a person believes very much determines their ultimate destination in eternity. Thus they are "soul-destroying" etc... because people choose to believe in them. For people who choose not to believe or practice such things, they have no effect.


    Well then, see, we agree on this ha ha! The reason that you say my opinions  are non-Catholic heresies will likely remain a mystery.

    The reason I bring it up a lot is because most (all?) sedevacantists wrongly insist that we are bound submit to the pope even when he wants us to do something that offends God, as if we are bound to abandon all reason, stop thinking entirely and give our minds over to the pope's wishes lest we fail in our bound duty to submit to him, even if submitting to him means losing the faith and falling into heresy if that's what he wants.

    If that were the case then yes, we could blame the pope at our particular Judgement - and end up in hell anyway, but since such beliefs are wrong, and since there are many sedevacantists out there who say that they believe it actually is truth, I strive to remind them what the truth of the matter is.

    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

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    « Reply #6 on: January 09, 2017, 07:02:28 AM »
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  • Quote from: An even Seven
    Quote from: Stubborn

    The reason I bring it up a lot is because most (all?) sedevacantists wrongly insist that we are bound submit to the pope even when he wants us to do something that offends God, as if we are bound to abandon all reason, stop thinking entirely and give our minds over to the pope's wishes lest we fail in our bound duty to submit to him, even if submitting to him means losing the faith and falling into heresy if that's what he wants.

    If that were the case then yes, we could blame the pope at our particular Judgement - and end up in hell anyway, but since such beliefs are wrong, and since there are many sedevacantists out there who say that they believe it actually is truth, I strive to remind them what the truth of the matter is.



    The difference is your inability to distinguish between a mortal sin (murder, adultery, etc..) and Heresy. While heresy is a mortal sin, it has the added extra Divine penalty of immediately removing oneself from the Catholic Church.


    I distinguish just fine because I distinguish according to the Catholic Church's teachings in the matter. The issue is not me, after all, I am not guilty of creating this crisis. The issue is, (as if this were even possible) that unless the pope is officially proclaimed to have lost his office for the entire world to know (instead of a relatively minuscule number of sedevacantists), then no matter what he does, he is the pope, just as Pope St. Pius X and XII decreed.  

    I am continually amazed how sedevacantists who yearn for a "true" pope to obey, blatantly disobey teachings of "true" popes. No one has yet to explain why they all do this.  


    Quote from: An even Seven

    The Pope logically could not teach or command something heretical to be imposed in the Church because then that Pope would not be Pope at all. If a Pope commanded us to murder the truly innocent, that's a horrible scenario in which we would be bound to disobey the Pope. The distinction is a true Pope being sinful or making private errors that have no force on the Catholic population (eg. Honorius) versus a man who purports to be Pope mandating an invalid "mass" and promulgating a heretical "council" (Paul VI).
    If you truly believe that a Catholic must be subject to the Pope in matters of faith and discipline, then your position is erroneous.


    Then your issue is with the OP, because you are disagreeing with the OP - and this also goes back to what I first posted.

    The people were never bound to submit to the wishes of the pope in his errors. Look at it this way, you don't go along with those errors - why do you suppose most everyone else does?

    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    « Reply #7 on: January 09, 2017, 10:28:47 AM »
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  • Quote
    It would be against the Church's Dogma of indefectibility that a Pope could set up Universal Customs and Practices that are heretical and
     soul-destroying thus making it something that it's not.

    Does current church law FORCE anyone to attend the novus ordo?  No.
    Does church law FORCE anyone to accept V2?  No.
    FORCE anyone to receive communion in the hand?  No.
    FORCE anyone to eat meat on fridays?  No.
    Use planned parenthood?  Go to mass on Sat night?  Get an annulment?
    No, no and no.

    There is nothing in the 'conciliar' church that forces anyone to sin.  Nothing which changes church doctrine.  Nothing which changes the Truth.

    Now, does current church law make 'allowances, permissions, excuses, etc, etc' so that people can violate the 'spirit' of the law?  Yes.

    Does chuch officials promote, encourage, condone and advertise an "easy" way for Catholics to "live their faith"?  Yes.  Is such an "easy" way a path to damnation?  Yes.  But Church teaching does not change; only the CHURCHMEN change.

    Christ warned us of wolves in sheep's clothing.  Wolves do not violate the indefectibility of the Church; they only prove it's necessity.


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    « Reply #8 on: January 09, 2017, 10:29:48 AM »
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  • Quote
    It would be against the Church's Dogma of indefectibility that a Pope could set up Universal Customs and Practices that are heretical and
     soul-destroying thus making it something that it's not.

    Does current church law FORCE anyone to attend the novus ordo?  No.
    Does church law FORCE anyone to accept V2?  No.
    FORCE anyone to receive communion in the hand?  No.
    FORCE anyone to eat meat on fridays?  No.
    Use planned parenthood?  Go to mass on Sat night?  Get an annulment?
    No, no and no.

    There is nothing in the 'conciliar' church that forces anyone to sin.  Nothing which changes church doctrine.  Nothing which changes the Truth.

    Now, does current church law make 'allowances, permissions, excuses, etc, etc' so that people can violate the 'spirit' of the law?  Yes.  Is anyone FORCED to violate the 'spirit' of the law?  No.

    Does chuch officials promote, encourage, condone and advertise an "easy" way for Catholics to "live their faith"?  Yes.  Is such an "easy" way a path to damnation?  Yes.  Is anyone FORCED to take the "easy" way?  No.  Church teaching does not change; only the CHURCHMEN change.

    Christ warned us of wolves in sheep's clothing.  Wolves do not violate the indefectibility of the Church; they only prove its necessity.

    Offline Stubborn

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    « Reply #9 on: January 10, 2017, 04:53:04 AM »
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  • Quote from: An even Seven
    Quote from: Stubborn
    I distinguish just fine because I distinguish according to the Catholic Church's teachings in the matter.

    Fine. Tell me the difference between the penalties for committing a mortal sin, and the penalties for Heresy.


    The difference is that the Church, because the sin is public, has attached the censure of excommunication to the sin of heresy. This means the heretic, while still having the obligations of practicing the Catholic faith i.e. still has to go to Mass on Sundays for example, but has lost the benefits of a Catholic i.e. cannot receive communion, cannot be Godparent, etc. - in short, the excommunicant is banned from participating in the community of the faithful due to his public sin.    

    You cannot impose this censure upon anyone, nor can I - in the case of the pope, no one can impose this censure upon him. If sedevacantists ever realize this, they will need to find another distraction to occupy their time with.



    Quote from: An even Seven

    Quote from: Stubborn
    The issue is not me, after all, I am not guilty of creating this crisis. The issue is, (as if this were even possible) that unless the pope is officially proclaimed to have lost his office for the entire world to know (instead of a relatively minuscule number of sedevacantists), then no matter what he does, he is the pope, just as Pope St. Pius X and XII decreed.
     
    I didn't say you created the crisis.
    Please cite a teaching that says that a Pope can retain his Office if he has become a public heretic. Please cite a teaching that says a public heretic can attain the Office of the Papacy (what has happened since JXXIII). Remember to cite a teaching that has those words, because I can cite teachings to the opposite that have those words.


    Far as I know, there are no teachings worded like that.
     
    Although the dogma does state that it is altogether necessary that every human creature "be subject to the pope", not that "we must submit to the pope even when he wants us to do something that offends God" - as most sedevacantists foolishly insist.

    The dogma teaches that we must be subject to the pope for our hope of salvation - sedevacantists add the exception; "unless you don't believe he is the pope" - they then make their exception to the dogma, dogma itself while insisting they're doing no such thing. How is it possible to argue the sedevacantist opinion at all when the sedevacantists hold such a position as that?

    We cannot be subject to him if we opine he is not the pope - but per the dogma, we must be subject to him if we want to get to heaven. This is my main reason to believe he is the pope - I cannot get to heaven unless I am his subject. You and the sedevacantists are wholly content to have figured out how to get to heaven without being subject to him, the rest of us haven't figured out how you're able to do that, when it's something we know we cannot do.



    Quote from: An even Seven

    Quote from: Stubborn
    The people were never bound to submit to the wishes of the pope in his errors. Look at it this way, you don't go along with those errors - why do you suppose most everyone else does?

    First, these are not just private errors. Setting up an evil anti-mass and solemnly promulgating a heretical council are very much public. So is practicing these things and furthering these doctrines.
    Second, the Pope is the unifying factor of faith in the Catholic Church. To be subject to him, affirms that he has the True faith and a Catholic is in communion with him.
    So whether someone calls him a heretic or staunch defender of truth doesn't matter. If you call him pope you are in Catholic Communion with him no matter what you say.


    You just don't get it.
    There is nothing to stop a pope from setting up an evil mass and etc.

    Per the OP, you, like so many who were taught the same error, do not understand what infallibility is - because you were taught that it is something which it is not.
     
    All you need to do is believe reality, believe your own eyes and you will begin to see the truth of the matter. Per the dogma, no one gets to heaven unless they are the popes' subject. Period. There is no way around this no matter what you think because they did not leave any provisos whatsoever.

     

    Quote from: An even Seven

    A couple of questions.
    1. Is Francis a member of the Catholic Church?
    2. Does he profess the true Faith?


    No and no. That is my opinion and I'm sure that is also your opinion and likely is the opinion of everyone here at CI and likely 99.9% of the trad population on earth.

    We can all together or individually jump up and down about it, stomp our feet, docuмent in triplicate each of his errors to serve as indisputable proof, have video evidence, take it to the Vatican, show it to the entire hierarchy, post it all on youtube, facebook, twitter and broadcast it on every TV, internet and radio channel on earth 24 hours a day for 10 years - and he would still be the pope. All everyone would have accomplished is a colossal waste of time while risking losing their soul in the process - for no reason at all.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

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    « Reply #10 on: January 10, 2017, 06:02:15 AM »
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  • Quote from: An even Seven
    Quote from: Stubborn
    Quote from: An even Seven

    Fine. Tell me the difference between the penalties for committing a mortal sin, and the penalties for Heresy.

    The difference is that the Church, because the sin is public, has attached the censure of excommunication to the sin of heresy. This means the heretic, while still having the obligations of practicing the Catholic faith i.e. still has to go to Mass on Sundays for example, but has lost the benefits of a Catholic i.e. cannot receive communion, cannot be Godparent, etc. - in short, the excommunicant is banned from participating in the community of the faithful due to his public sin.    

    Wrong. You didn't answer the question. The penalty for mortal sin is the loss of sanctifying grace while still remaining Catholic. The penalty for Heresy, along with the loss of sanctifying grace, is the immediate and without further declaration, excommunication and removal from the Church in which the Catholic ceases to be Catholic.

    Then why do you keep declaring it when the penalty happens without it?


    Quote from: An even Seven

    Quote from: Stubborn
    You cannot impose this censure upon anyone, nor can I - in the case of the pope, no one can impose this censure upon him.

    You are right but neither you nor I need too. ANY person that no longer professes the true faith has ceased to be a member of the Church and cannot be Pope.

    As long as you believe that, it must be true. All you need to do is prove he no longer occupies the chair and everyone will believe it.


    Quote from: An even Seven

    Quote from: Stubborn
    Quote from: An even Seven
    I didn't say you created the crisis.
    Please cite a teaching that says that a Pope can retain his Office if he has become a public heretic. Please cite a teaching that says a public heretic can attain the Office of the Papacy (what has happened since JXXIII). Remember to cite a teaching that has those words, because I can cite teachings to the opposite that have those words.

    Far as I know, there are no teachings worded like that
    .
    Exactly. Yet there are teachings by Popes saying that any man who is a heretic, who is elevated to the Office of the Papacy, would not be the Pope.
    Many saints explicitly teach that a Pope who becomes a heretic ceases to be Pope.


    All you need to do is get one of the pope's superiors to make the pronunciation and impose the censure and everyone will believe it.


    Quote from: An even Seven

    Quote from: Stubborn
    The dogma teaches that we must be subject to the pope for our hope of salvation - sedevacantists add the exception; "unless you don't believe he is the pope" - they then make their exception to the dogma, dogma itself while insisting they're doing no such thing. How is it possible to argue the sedevacantist opinion at all when the sedevacantists hold such a position as that?

    Please explain how you are entirely subject to the Pope.


    Paraphrasing St. Thomas More's last words -  I am the pope's good subject, but God's first.

    Nothing complicated at all.




    Quote from: An even Seven

    Quote from: Stubborn
    We cannot be subject to him if we opine he is not the pope - but per the dogma, we must be subject to him if we want to get to heaven. This is my main reason to believe he is the pope - I cannot get to heaven unless I am his subject. You and the sedevacantists are wholly content to have figured out how to get to heaven without being subject to him, the rest of us haven't figured out how you're able to do that, when it's something we know we cannot do.

    How would you get to heaven if you had died between the death of PPiusXI and the election of PPiusXII? There was no Pope living for you to be subject to. As soon as you figure out how to be subject to the Pope during that interregnum then you can answer your own question.


    Ah, but that is not asking an honest question. The question is - how would you get to heaven when you are not the pope's subject?



    Quote from: An even Seven

    Quote from: Stubborn
    You just don't get it.
    There is nothing to stop a pope from setting up an evil mass and etc.

    What is the definition of the gates of hell? How is the Church indefectible?
    Quote from: Stubborn
    Quote from: An even Seven

    A couple of questions.
    1. Is Francis a member of the Catholic Church?
    2. Does he profess the true Faith?

    No and no. That is my opinion and I'm sure that is also your opinion and likely is the opinion of everyone here at CI and likely 99.9% of the trad population on earth.

    We can all together or individually jump up and down about it, stomp our feet, docuмent in triplicate each of his errors to serve as indisputable proof, have video evidence, take it to the Vatican, show it to the entire hierarchy, post it all on youtube, facebook, twitter and broadcast it on every TV, internet and radio channel on earth 24 hours a day for 10 years - and he would still be the pope. All everyone would have accomplished is a colossal waste of time while risking losing their soul in the process - for no reason at all.


    So your belief in a nutshell is, a person who is neither a member of the Church nor professes the true faith is the Pope. I truly hope that one day you will open your eyes and see how demonic this opinion is. How deceived you are. If you truly believe he is Pope then you have most definitely judged the Pope. SV's merely say that Francis can't be Pope while fully believing in Catholic Dogma that when there is a Pope, we are subject to him. You claim that a non-Catholic is the Pope and that you are subject to him, A NON-CATHOLIC.


    Well then, please go ahead and answer what all the above human efforts could accomplish. And please, do not use Catholic teachings to vindicate sedevacantism, I will not acknowledge them. Always remember, sedevacantism is a doctrine of man, not a doctrine of the Church - the Church has never taught sedevacantism.

    If you will please use only teachings from sedevacantist popes and saints, I will not miss a word.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Stubborn

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    « Reply #11 on: January 10, 2017, 09:38:56 AM »
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  • Quote from: An even Seven
    Quote from: Stubborn

    Well then, please go ahead and answer what all the above human efforts could accomplish. And please, do not use Catholic teachings to vindicate sedevacantism, I will not acknowledge them. Always remember, sedevacantism is a doctrine of man, not a doctrine of the Church - the Church has never taught sedevacantism.

    If you will please use only teachings from sedevacantist popes and saints, I will not miss a word.

    My previous post is filled with enough facts that you cannot refute. Too many unanswered questions. You are so hypocritical to say that SV's cannot use Catholic Teachings to vindicate SVism (i.e. that a heretic can't be Catholic) when you constantly use Catholic teachings to try to prove EENS. They are on par with each other. Can you name any other person who taught that a person cannot cease to be Catholic once he is one, besides Wathen?
    BTW, when you said that you will not accept Catholic Teaching to prove a point, this is very obvious and diabolical. Meditate on that one for a while.


    Ha!
    Why not just completely obliterate what I said to suit what you have to say?

    You certainly must know that you can no more use Catholic teaching to vindicate sedevacantism than Protestants can use the bible to vindicate Protestantism, but that's exactly what sedevacantists keep trying to do. Debating the understanding of the dogma EENS is not debating the understanding of the dogma of sedevacantism.

    Again, the Catholic Church has never taught sedevacantism because it is a doctrine of man, not a doctrine of Christ. As such, you are attempting to use Catholic teaching to justify a doctrine of man.  

    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    « Reply #12 on: January 10, 2017, 10:56:39 AM »
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    PV said:
    Does current church law FORCE anyone to attend the novus ordo?  No.
     Does church law FORCE anyone to accept V2?  No.
     FORCE anyone to receive communion in the hand?  No.
     FORCE anyone to eat meat on fridays?  No.
     Use planned parenthood?  Go to mass on Sat night?  Get an annulment?
     No, no and no.

    And even seven said:
     The Catholic Church would never and has never done, promulgate, teach or allow these things. They are harmful whether forced or not. That's one of the reasons why we know it's not the real Church.


    During the time of Arianism, was the Church not the real Church?  It is said that almost the entire world was infected with Arianism (except St Athanasius).  The Cardinals, Bishops, priests, etc believed in error, promoted it, condoned it, etc.  Even the Pope was not as direct as he could be.  The true heretics would say one thing and do another.  Preach the truth and then turn around and undermine it.  This is why arianism was formally condemned multiple times in a short span of 60 years - because the error kept evolving.

    This time period is VERY consistent with ours.  It was a doctrinal nightmare, filled with error, half-truths and heretics.  Yet, the Church has never declared that the arian time period was sedevecant, or that the Church wasn't the Church, or that there were mass vacancies in the cardinal, bishop or priestly offices.

    How do you explain this?

    Offline Stubborn

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    « Reply #13 on: January 11, 2017, 04:14:40 AM »
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  • Quote from: An even Seven

    Sedevacantism is not a Dogma. Catholics who become heretics do not stay Catholic is of divine law.
    "Once a Catholic, always a Catholic" is a doctrine of man; that man's name was Fr. Wathen.


    You confuse the prot heresy; "once saved always saved", which is a doctrine of man, with the Catholic truth; "once a Catholic always a Catholic".

    At some point, you must be honest with yourself and admit that sedevacantism is not a teaching of the Catholic Church, that it really and actually is the teaching of a man.  

    Do not keep fooling yourself, your salvation is *not* dependent upon the status of the pope. Your salvation is wholly dependent upon you persevering in the Catholic faith and dying in sanctifying grace, without mortal sin on your soul. You can do this, we can and are all expected to persevere, regardless of the status of the pope, regardless of whether he be a fraud or a living saint.

    You can be subject to the pope and you must be subject to him regardless of your opinion of his status - no one gave you the right to declare yourself not subject to him no matter what your opinion of his status is.

    The dogma states quite completely; Furthermore, we declare, we proclaim, we define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff.

    Madmen changed that dogma into a dangerous doctrine, a doctrine of man, by adding the proviso at the end; ".....be subject to the Roman Pontiff, unless you don't believe he is the pope".

    This addition is what the sedevacantists add, while they insist they are doing no such thing. Their reasoning is that the pope is not the pope - as if they actually know this, as if their opinion has been dogmatically defined or a divinely revealed truth - instead of their opinion. Sedevacantists have the highest regard for their own opinion that I know of.

    I understand that as a rule, sedevacantists do not differentiate between, "being subject to the pope" and "blindly submitting to the pope", but if you strive to understand the difference, you will discover that as usual, it was with exacting reason that the Holy Ghost used the word "subject" instead of "submit". To use "submit" would not even be Catholic. Hopefully you'll at least think about it.

     
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

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    « Reply #14 on: January 11, 2017, 06:43:15 AM »
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  • Quote from: An even Seven

    Quote from: Stubborn
    You confuse the prot heresy; "once saved always saved", which is a doctrine of man, with the Catholic truth; "once a Catholic always a Catholic".

    Please cite the source of this elusive "once a Catholic, always a Catholic" "doctrine".

    I thought the prot heresy comparison should suffice, since this "truth" is not at all elusive to Catholics, it is by virtue of their baptism which marks their souls with an indelible character, identifying them as a Catholic forever. Or are you claiming there are no Catholics in hell now? Where is that "doctrine"?



    Quote from: An even Seven

    Quote from: Stubborn
    You can be subject to the pope and you must be subject to him regardless of your opinion of his status

    Please tell me what it means to be subject to the Pope and where you get your opinion from.


    It means that for our hope of salvation, we must be the pope's subject, but always God's first. Most (all?) sedevacantists leave the part out about being subject to God first, doing this serves only one purpose - as fuel for their "must blindly submit" ideas, but those ideas only work - and work well, only so long as they leave God out of the formula entirely.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse