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Author Topic: The Maronite liturgy?  (Read 5017 times)

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Offline 2Vermont

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Re: The Maronite liturgy?
« Reply #45 on: March 11, 2023, 09:13:07 AM »
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  • No. And I tire of your witch hunt.
    And I'm tired of your hypocritical stance regarding the divisions caused by the Trad wars when you had no issue posting a video that is clearly anti-sede.   

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: The Maronite liturgy?
    « Reply #46 on: March 11, 2023, 09:15:08 AM »
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  • No. And I tire of your witch hunt. You DM me basically trying to check my sedevacantist purity for opening a discussion on the matter and now you're pushing that I CERTANLY believe such a thing.

    I don’t know with certainty. YOU don't know with certainty. NO ONE BUT GOD KNOWS WITH CERTAINTY
    If you have no issue with Mitch Pacwa's new rite ordination so long as he was ordained by an Old Rite bishop, then you do believe that the New Rite ordination is valid. 


    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: The Maronite liturgy?
    « Reply #47 on: March 11, 2023, 09:17:42 AM »
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  • And I'm tired of your hypocritical stance regarding the divisions caused by the Trad wars when you had no issue posting a video that is clearly anti-sede. 
    Anti-sede, but not anti-Catholic. I myself am growing "anti-sede" in the sense that it now entails an entire set of beliefs and practices set apart from the rest beyond merely not believing these Popes are legitimate.

    I would be accused of being anti-R&R and starting "trad wars" if I just posted Fr. Cekada videos too. You can't simply discuss anything on a Catholic forum without being accused of offending idol A or B. To hell with it all.
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: The Maronite liturgy?
    « Reply #48 on: March 11, 2023, 09:26:01 AM »
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  • Anti-sede, but not anti-Catholic. I myself am growing "anti-sede" in the sense that it now entails an entire set of beliefs and practices set apart from the rest beyond merely not believing these Popes are legitimate.

    I would be accused of being anti-R&R and starting "trad wars" if I just posted Fr. Cekada videos too. You can't simply discuss anything on a Catholic forum without being accused of offending idol A or B. To hell with it all.
    Anyone who doesn't want to add fuel to the so-called trad war fire or get involved with it wouldn't post either.  

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: The Maronite liturgy?
    « Reply #49 on: March 11, 2023, 09:28:24 AM »
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  • The real question lies with the Episcopal orders , yes?

    Unfortunately, no.  There's enough there to constitute positive doubt even about the NO rite for ordaining priests, not only the removal of the "ut" but removal throughout the entire rite of anything related to the priest's power to offer sacrifice, forgive sins, etc. (the same reasons that Pope Leo XIII stated that the Anglican Rite was invalid even after they attempted to "fix" the essential form).

    But the removal of "ut" is very significant in that it severs the link between the Holy Ghost and the Sacramental effect, and no longer explicitly invokes the Holy Ghost in order to produce said effect.  Rather, it's broken up into two pieces, 1) invoking the Holy Ghost (who can be invoked for myriad reasons, including just sanctifying souls), and 2) praying that (God?) would make the man a priest.  One can try to argue that there's an "implicit" link there, but that's IMO only due to reading into it the previous version.  If you saw this rite and were not familiar with the earlier version, would you read into this that the Holy Ghost is being asked to make the person a priest?  That link is not necessarily there in the text.

    Why did these people BOTHER to take out a single two-letter word?  Was this somehow "improving" or making more "modern" the essential form?  This leads to a strong suspicion that it was doen on purpose to delibertely invalidate the rite.

    "ut" indicates causality, that the Holy Ghost causes or effects the ordination, but that explicit causal link between the Holy Ghost and the Sacramental effect is missing in the new rite.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: The Maronite liturgy?
    « Reply #50 on: March 11, 2023, 09:35:55 AM »
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  • Anti-sede, but not anti-Catholic. I myself am growing "anti-sede" in the sense that it now entails an entire set of beliefs and practices set apart from the rest beyond merely not believing these Popes are legitimate.

    I would be accused of being anti-R&R and starting "trad wars" if I just posted Fr. Cekada videos too. You can't simply discuss anything on a Catholic forum without being accused of offending idol A or B. To hell with it all.

    I think you're throwing out the baby with the bathwater here.  There are some, mostly the radical dogmatic SV types that you've had a bad experience with, but this doesn't mean that Jorge Bergoglio is the pope.  He's clearly not.  There are some more balanced positions out there that don't lead to the excesses of the dogmatic sedevacantists, not excluding that of Father Chazal.  Your association this entire "set of beliefs and practices" is to give in and allow the dogmatic SV to define what it means to be a sedevacantist.  There are many moderate SVs out there who overlap with the moderate R&R ... at least as far as their attitude of being somewhat tolerant regarding things that fall short of settled Catholic doctrine.

    You don't have to declare everybody and his uncle a heretic in order to hold that Bergoglio is no pope and that the papacy is protected by the Holy Spirit from grave error (something that even Archbishop Lefebvre affirmed).

    You don't have to de-canonize and de-Doctorize Saint Alphonsus.  This thinking comes from the binary mentality where someone is either 100% right about everything or else a bad-willed malicious heretic.  It's possible to disagree respectfully with a St. Alphonsus without reviling him.

    Offline confederate catholic

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    Re: The Maronite liturgy?
    « Reply #51 on: March 11, 2023, 10:46:57 AM »
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  • DL
    I am not sure who ordained him but for priests who will be biritual they sometimes give permission to be ordained by the other rites bishop, so no idea if he was ordained by the Jesuits or bishop Zayek. He would probably want Zayek if it was possible as he was the only Maronite bishop in the US at the time
    قامت مريم، ترتيل وفاء جحا و سلام جحا

    Offline Simeon

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    Re: The Maronite liturgy?
    « Reply #52 on: March 11, 2023, 05:58:58 PM »
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  • I'm largely ignorant of this liturgy but have seen it thrown around with disdain here. The area im looking to move would have a Maronite Church right in town (https://maps.app.goo.gl/5jUfrDSennhUJBsB6), but is it valid like the Tridentine or Eastern liturgies? Or to be avoided like the NOM?
    I have looked for Eastern Rite possibilities in the past, and never succeeded. I found that these parishes are very liberal, and pray in the vulgar tongue. They are pretty much NO venues with a Mediterranean twist. 

    I don't think the NO hierarchy is going to let any official organ in communion with their sect remain integral and intact. But if you find something to the contrary, I'm all ears; because I would run this way in a heartbeat if I could find orthodoxy in belief and liturgy. 


    Offline Simeon

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    Re: The Maronite liturgy?
    « Reply #53 on: March 11, 2023, 06:02:26 PM »
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  • This really answered my own question.

    Upon further reflection of this article, my outrage is comparable to the hack job they did to the Roman rite with the NOM. There were elements, such as the recitation of Psalm 50 which had existed in the liturgy since the 5th century, that were completely removed to accommodate for Bugninian opposition to repetition.

    Even if it were valid (in the sense of Holy Orders, technically a post-BXVI NOM would be "valid" if performed by a traditionally-ordained priest), I couldn't in good conscience attend it knowing now how they butchered the liturgy. :facepalm:
    There may be something objectively even more beautiful about the Eastern Rites than the more, say, logical and characteristically Roman, Latin Rite. And it follows that vulgarization, modernization, and "reformation" of these heavenly liturgies is even more reprehensible, at least under the aspect of beauty. 

    Offline Simeon

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    Re: The Maronite liturgy?
    « Reply #54 on: March 11, 2023, 06:39:02 PM »
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  • Anti-sede, but not anti-Catholic. I myself am growing "anti-sede" in the sense that it now entails an entire set of beliefs and practices set apart from the rest beyond merely not believing these Popes are legitimate.

    I would be accused of being anti-R&R and starting "trad wars" if I just posted Fr. Cekada videos too. You can't simply discuss anything on a Catholic forum without being accused of offending idol A or B. To hell with it all.
    Though I have a moral conviction that the novus ordo is NOT the Catholic Church, and that these "popes" of the VII council are not Catholics, and therefore not legitimate Vicars of Christ, I steadfastly refuse to call myself a sedevacantist.

    A Catholic is a real being; hence it is logically and metaphysically proper to call oneself a Catholic. But properly speaking, there is no such thing as a sedevacantist. The term does not signify any real being. Thus it is improper and false to call oneself a sedevacantist; because by doing so one identifies with non-being. 

    Most unfortunately, this truth/distinction is never discussed; and Catholics are endlessly lured into the trap of making themselves out to be something they are not, and can never be. 

    It is perfectly reasonable to conclude that the See of Peter is occupied by an anti-pope. But this conclusion is an intellectual judgment, and no more. It is a judgment upon which one may base their practical and intellectual actions, but no more. A judgment is an act of the intellectual faculty. It is not a real being. The term sedevacantist, which is derived from a judgment that the See of Peter has been usurped or occupied by fakers, nevertheless cannot designate any real being; whereas the term "Catholic" most certainly designates a real being, namely a member of the Mystical Body of Christ. 

    Because people have fallen into the intellectual error of equating "sedevacantist" with real being, many of those calling themselves sedevacantist have made a mere judgment - and a merely human judgment at that - into their very religion. In certain persons who call themselves sedevacantist, this judgment has become a false identification which has supplanted the true identification of Catholic.   

    It is metaphysically impossible to identity with a judgment. But how may there are who do so identify themselves. How can this not be a terrible source of division within the ranks of Catholics who strive to hold the Faith? It is just as harmful and divisive as anathematizing anyone who questions the legitimacy of the VII papal poseurs. 

    Offline Incredulous

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    Re: The Maronite liturgy?
    « Reply #55 on: May 14, 2023, 12:44:31 PM »
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  • Though I have a moral conviction that the novus ordo is NOT the Catholic Church, and that these "popes" of the VII council are not Catholics, and therefore not legitimate Vicars of Christ, I steadfastly refuse to call myself a sedevacantist.

    A Catholic is a real being; hence it is logically and metaphysically proper to call oneself a Catholic. But properly speaking, there is no such thing as a sedevacantist. The term does not signify any real being. Thus it is improper and false to call oneself a sedevacantist; because by doing so one identifies with non-being.

    Most unfortunately, this truth/distinction is never discussed; and Catholics are endlessly lured into the trap of making themselves out to be something they are not, and can never be.

    It is perfectly reasonable to conclude that the See of Peter is occupied by an anti-pope. But this conclusion is an intellectual judgment, and no more. It is a judgment upon which one may base their practical and intellectual actions, but no more. A judgment is an act of the intellectual faculty. It is not a real being. The term sedevacantist, which is derived from a judgment that the See of Peter has been usurped or occupied by fakers, nevertheless cannot designate any real being; whereas the term "Catholic" most certainly designates a real being, namely a member of the Mystical Body of Christ.

    Because people have fallen into the intellectual error of equating "sedevacantist" with real being, many of those calling themselves sedevacantist have made a mere judgment - and a merely human judgment at that - into their very religion. In certain persons who call themselves sedevacantist, this judgment has become a false identification which has supplanted the true identification of Catholic. 

    It is metaphysically impossible to identity with a judgment. But how may there are who do so identify themselves. How can this not be a terrible source of division within the ranks of Catholics who strive to hold the Faith? It is just as harmful and divisive as anathematizing anyone who questions the legitimacy of the VII papal poseurs.

    The term sedevancantism has been used since the usurpation of the Seat in 1958 as a label to brand Catholics who deny the “Hollywood jew-show” known as modern Rome.
     
    Even Msgr Bugnini craftily asserted that doubters of the authority of Liturgical change took the position that the pope was not the pope.

    “Sedevanctism” has become talismatic word used to paralyze thinking Catholics who question the schismatic church.
    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi


    Offline AGeorge

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    Re: The Maronite liturgy?
    « Reply #56 on: May 31, 2023, 06:46:18 PM »
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  • I'm largely ignorant of this liturgy but have seen it thrown around with disdain here. The area im looking to move would have a Maronite Church right in town (https://maps.app.goo.gl/5jUfrDSennhUJBsB6), but is it valid like the Tridentine or Eastern liturgies? Or to be avoided like the NOM?
    It is a valid liturgy. Several parts of the mass, including the consecration, are in Aramaic and ancient Syriac. Communion is done by intinction, so there is no risk of profanation of the Eucharist by communion in the hand. However, there are lay 'lectors,' and in many places, there is a lack of reverence in church once mass is over. The priest also says Mass facing the people, similar if not identical to the New mass.