Catholic Info
Traditional Catholic Faith => Crisis in the Church => Topic started by: DigitalLogos on March 06, 2023, 09:17:22 PM
-
I'm largely ignorant of this liturgy but have seen it thrown around with disdain here. The area im looking to move would have a Maronite Church right in town (https://maps.app.goo.gl/5jUfrDSennhUJBsB6), but is it valid like the Tridentine or Eastern liturgies? Or to be avoided like the NOM?
-
The Maronites use a West Syriac liturgy that has been heavily Latinised and, consequently, influenced by the Novus Ordo Missae.
-
The Maronites use a West Syriac liturgy that has been heavily Latinised and, consequently, influenced by the Novus Ordo Missae.
Unfortunate, I'm seeing that it's versus populum; like a more reverent NOM.
-
I'm going to a Maronite liturgy this coming Sunday for the first time (wasn't able to this passed Saturday). I'll let you know. Somebody I know went years ago, said it was versus populum. Question is, is that something they ever had a tradition of doing at all in that rite.
-
I came across this article, it seems like the Maronite has truly become the NOM of the East.
https://www.newliturgicalmovement.org/2021/09/the-maronite-liturgys-corruption-under.html?m=1
-
I came across this article, it seems like the Maronite has truly become the NOM of the East.
https://www.newliturgicalmovement.org/2021/09/the-maronite-liturgys-corruption-under.html?m=1
This really answered my own question.
Upon further reflection of this article, my outrage is comparable to the hack job they did to the Roman rite with the NOM. There were elements, such as the recitation of Psalm 50 which had existed in the liturgy since the 5th century, that were completely removed to accommodate for Bugninian opposition to repetition.
Even if it were valid (in the sense of Holy Orders, technically a post-BXVI NOM would be "valid" if performed by a traditionally-ordained priest), I couldn't in good conscience attend it knowing now how they butchered the liturgy. :facepalm:
-
Orders, technically a post-BXVI NOM would be "valid" if performed by a traditionally-ordained priest), I couldn't in good conscience attend it knowing now how they butchered the liturgy. :facepalm:
COULD* be valid, depending on intention which as the Ottaviani intervention points out is no longer implied by the Novus ordo missal.
-
This really answered my own question.
Upon further reflection of this article, my outrage is comparable to the hack job they did to the Roman rite with the NOM. There were elements, such as the recitation of Psalm 50 which had existed in the liturgy since the 5th century, that were completely removed to accommodate for Bugninian opposition to repetition.
Even if it were valid (in the sense of Holy Orders, technically a post-BXVI NOM would be "valid" if performed by a traditionally-ordained priest), I couldn't in good conscience attend it knowing now how they butchered the liturgy. :facepalm:
I can vouch for Maronite Rite being modernized like the novus ordo. I remember that when I was a teenager my family was invited to a baptism at such a place. We decided to go to the liturgy before hand. I remember thinking that it was worse than the conservative novus ordo we went to and being very scandalized.
Many of the Eastern Rites have gone through modernizations similar to the novus ordo. I have friends who will only go to the Ukrainian Eastern Rites for this reason. It has been a long time since I have been to an Eastern Rite but I do remember going to a Ukrainian one back about 15 years ago and being amazed by the reverence at it and how similar it was in many ways to the traditional Latin Mass even though different.
-
I can vouch for Maronite Rite being modernized like the novus ordo. I remember that when I was a teenager my family was invited to a baptism at such a place. We decided to go to the liturgy before hand. I remember thinking that it was worse than the conservative novus ordo we went to and being very scandalized.
Many of the Eastern Rites have gone through modernizations similar to the novus ordo. I have friends who will only go to the Ukrainian Eastern Rites for this reason. It has been a long time since I have been to an Eastern Rite but I do remember going to a Ukrainian one back about 15 years ago and being amazed by the reverence at it and how similar it was in many ways to the traditional Latin Mass even though different.
Well, the other option I'd have for an Eastern liturgy is over an hour away, and that seems mostly licit (https://maps.app.goo.gl/TFL7ugoVFM2r3wFt6) with 3 SSPX chapels close to two hours away; and for whatever reason there are no sede chapels I know of anywhere in NC.
-
Well, the other option I'd have for an Eastern liturgy is over an hour away, and that seems mostly licit (https://maps.app.goo.gl/TFL7ugoVFM2r3wFt6) with 3 SSPX chapels close to two hours away; and for whatever reason there are no sede chapels I know of anywhere in NC.
What part of NC will you be living? Because I see a CMRI chapel near the border of northern SC in Greenville.
-
Well, the other option I'd have for an Eastern liturgy is over an hour away, and that seems mostly licit (https://maps.app.goo.gl/TFL7ugoVFM2r3wFt6) with 3 SSPX chapels close to two hours away; and for whatever reason there are no sede chapels I know of anywhere in NC.
This is the liturgy at said Maronite church: https://goo.gl/maps/EZJBfEGU7ejTZfTx6 (https://goo.gl/maps/EZJBfEGU7ejTZfTx6), which aside from the Maronite vestments, looks identical to the Novus Ordo, unfortunately.
And there is a broadcaster in Lebanon that has videos of them online as well: Mass - 22/01/2017 - قداس إلهي من عنايا - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D8s78zIrLko). It is even more protestantized there.
That part of North Carolina is a liturgical desert, and that's being kind. 'Wasteland' is probably a more apropos term.
-
What part of NC will you be living? Because I see a CMRI chapel near the border of northern SC in Greenville.
Within an hour of Fort Bragg
-
I guess my next question, which I'm not seeing an answer for, is whether Maronite orders are doubtful? I understand they could mix in NO clerics here and there, so there would be a danger with that which would call for prudence on my part; but if those ordained by a Maronite bishop would be safe?
I can tolerate a modernized rite if the Sacraments are valid and I can't make the drive elsewhere.
-
Within an hour of Fort Bragg
There is a Maronite Catholic church in Fayetteville, St Michael the Archangel:
https://www.stmichaelsmaronite.net/ (https://www.stmichaelsmaronite.net/)
-
I guess my next question, which I'm not seeing an answer for, is whether Maronite orders are doubtful? I understand they could mix in NO clerics here and there, so there would be a danger with that which would call for prudence on my part; but if those ordained by a Maronite bishop would be safe?
I can tolerate a modernized rite if the Sacraments are valid and I can't make the drive elsewhere.
Yes. And yes, they do have Novus Ordo clergy in some places.
Many NO clergy have faculties to serve in both rites.
-
There is a Maronite Catholic church in Fayetteville, St Michael the Archangel:
https://www.stmichaelsmaronite.net/ (https://www.stmichaelsmaronite.net/)
Yes, that's the one that sparked this thread on the Maronites. It would be convenient to me as a possible place for Mass, if valid.
Yes. And yes, they do have Novus Ordo clergy in some places.
Many NO clergy have faculties to serve in both rites.
Yes, they are doubtful and yes the Maronite ordinations are valid?? Or, did you mean they're overall valid?
-
Maronite orders are unquestionably valid.
This does mean that technically, a Maronite priest could seek faculties from Rome to celebrate the Tridentine Rite and you would have a valid Latin Mass. Maybe it has happened before.
-
Maronite orders are unquestionably valid.
This does mean that technically, a Maronite priest could seek faculties from Rome to celebrate the Tridentine Rite and you would have a valid Latin Mass. Maybe it has happened before.
Well, that's good to hear, praise God. I'll have to check it out once we're down there. From the videos I've watched it looks like a "reverent NOM" which is tolerable. It's not about me but the graces and worship of God anyway. If that's what I have immediately available, so be it.
-
Yes, that's the one that sparked this thread on the Maronites. It would be convenient to me as a possible place for Mass, if valid.
I didn't look at the map. Thanks.
-
I've written on the Maronites at length before. As others have pointed out, of the Eastern Rites, they've always been the most "Romanized" ... for good, and now also for bad. So, the changes they've implemented are mostly externals ... lay (female) readers, cantors, altar girls, altar in center, and Mass / Liturgy facing the people ... and a lot of their music is horrible. With that said, their Sacraments are still valid, both Holy Orders and the others. I knew a Maronite bishop in Cleveland and went to Confession to him once, and he gave me absolution using the full Traditional absolution form in Latin. He didn't know at the time that I was Roman Rite. Many Maronites studied in Rome. They're a little bit less "standard" in that if you find a conservative or Traditional leaning Maronite, his Mass would very much resemble a Tridentine Rite Mass, whereas another might look externally closer to a NO clown Mass. There was a Maronite priest in Chicago back in the 1980s who detested the modernizations, and was very friendly with SSPX, welcoming SSPX seminarians at his chapel there, and his Mass could have been mistaken for a Tridentine Latin Mass. Thankfully, given their manner of distributing Holy Communion, you at least won't find Communion in the hand there.
As I said, they're valid, but you always have to be on the lookout for the occasional bi-ritual type or the transfer who had been ordained Novus Ordo (even Mitch Pacwa of EWTN does Maronite Liturgies, as does a former SSPX priest).
If it were my only or only reasonable option, I might go there to receive the Sacraments, perhaps float out in the vestibule until the Canon (Anaphora) to avoid the lay readers, etc. They do still generally do the main consecration (essential form) in Aramaic, their traditional sacred language.
-
I've written on the Maronites at length before. As others have pointed out, of the Eastern Rites, they've always been the most "Romanized" ... for good, and now also for bad. So, the changes they've implemented are mostly externals ... lay (female) readers, cantors, altar girls, altar in center, and Mass / Liturgy facing the people ... and a lot of their music is horrible. With that said, their Sacraments are still valid, both Holy Orders and the others. I knew a Maronite bishop in Cleveland and went to Confession to him once, and he gave me absolution using the full Traditional absolution form in Latin. He didn't know at the time that I was Roman Rite. Many Maronites studied in Rome. They're a little bit less "standard" in that if you find a conservative or Traditional leaning Maronite, his Mass would very much resemble a Tridentine Rite Mass, whereas another might look externally closer to a NO clown Mass. There was a Maronite priest in Chicago back in the 1980s who detested the modernizations, and was very friendly with SSPX, welcoming SSPX seminarians at his chapel there, and his Mass could have been mistaken for a Tridentine Latin Mass. Thankfully, given their manner of distributing Holy Communion, you at least won't find Communion in the hand there.
As I said, they're valid, but you always have to be on the lookout for the occasional bi-ritual type or the transfer who had been ordained Novus Ordo (even Mitch Pacwa of EWTN does Maronite Liturgies, as does a former SSPX priest).
If it were my only or only reasonable option, I might go there to receive the Sacraments, perhaps float out in the vestibule until the Canon (Anaphora) to avoid the lay readers, etc. They do still generally do the main consecration (essential form) in Aramaic, their traditional sacred language.
I'm glad to hear communion in the hand isn't a thing with them, I would avoid it entirely if that were the case, especially with valid Orders. I can tolerate the lay readers and modern crap for the graces. Looking at their site, they at least have confessions for almost a full hour prior to Divine Liturgy, which tells me it may not be as modernized as others.
As I said, God wills it. It's valid sacraments with an extra penitential aspect of stomaching some modernizations, I'll offer that up. And only 20-30 minutes from where I'll likely be living (we can't get approved for a home til my security clearance passes and I have a firm start date)
-
I have attended a Maronite parish for a few years.
The general attitude is no different from the Novus Ordo, regarding both clergy and lay people.
As far as I could, I have studied the rite, and, although it was somewhat modernized to mimic the Novus Ordo, it doesn't have any theologial problems. At least as far as I could tell.
A bit of it was in the vernacular, a bit was in the Arabic language, and a bit was in Aramaic, the language supposedly spoken by Our Lord as vernacular.
The sermons were sometimes good, but rubbish most of the time. Their formation is apparently very conciliar, so to speak.
One thing that really bothered me was that they venerated a lot of "new saints", as all of their sants were canonized after the council.
Regarding communion, they will give you communion of both the consecrated hosts and the consecrated wine, but it is rushed. They don't really give you a chance to kneel, so the risk of profanation exists.
Also, they will give communion in the hand if people ask for it. Sometimes there will even be two queues. One for the usual communion, and other for communion in the hand. At least when they give you communion in the hand, it is only the consecrated hosts and not the consecrated wine.
One big problem was also the bi-ritual priests. There was a particular Novus Ordo priest that had some Lebanese ancestry and became good friends with the Maronite priests. As time went by, he learned how to celebrate their liturgy, and now he is a regular celebrant there. So you do have the risk of invalid sacraments.
My advice is to go a couple of times and see how it is. They are usually welcoming people, the Lebanese.
-
I have attended a Maronite parish for a few years.
The general attitude is no different from the Novus Ordo, regarding both clergy and lay people.
As far as I could, I have studied the rite, and, although it was somewhat modernized to mimic the Novus Ordo, it doesn't have any theologial problems. At least as far as I could tell.
A bit of it was in the vernacular, a bit was in the Arabic language, and a bit was in Aramaic, the language supposedly spoken by Our Lord as vernacular.
The sermons were sometimes good, but rubbish most of the time. Their formation is apparently very conciliar, so to speak.
One thing that really bothered me was that they venerated a lot of "new saints", as all of their sants were canonized after the council.
Regarding communion, they will give you communion of both the consecrated hosts and the consecrated wine, but it is rushed. They don't really give you a chance to kneel, so the risk of profanation exists.
Also, they will give communion in the hand if people ask for it. Sometimes there will even be two queues. One for the usual communion, and other for communion in the hand. At least when they give you communion in the hand, it is only the consecrated hosts and not the consecrated wine.
One big problem was also the bi-ritual priests. There was a particular Novus Ordo priest that had some Lebanese ancestry and became good friends with the Maronite priests. As time went by, he learned how to celebrate their liturgy, and now he is a regular celebrant there. So you do have the risk of invalid sacraments.
My advice is to go a couple of times and see how it is. They are usually welcoming people, the Lebanese.
Having bi-ritual priests is probably my biggest concern. Their veneration of their Maronite saints doesn't bother me that much as it would be equivalent to a regional devotion, like Eastern Catholics venerating their own saints not yet venerated universally in the Church.
But yes, I'll check it out a couple times and see how it is once we're down there. Then I'm sure I'll give my take on it here lol
-
The pastor was ordained by a Maronite bishop, so you're good. He is a former Episcopalian that was received directly into that rite.
Maronite convert leads city parish (southcoasttoday.com) (https://www.southcoasttoday.com/story/lifestyle/faith/2007/05/19/maronite-convert-leads-city-parish/52894037007/)
It's rather unfortunate that for such a large city, the liturgical options are awful.
-
The pastor was ordained by a Maronite bishop, so you're good. He is a former Episcopalian that was received directly into that rite.
Maronite convert leads city parish (southcoasttoday.com) (https://www.southcoasttoday.com/story/lifestyle/faith/2007/05/19/maronite-convert-leads-city-parish/52894037007/)
It's rather unfortunate that for such a large city, the liturgical options are awful.
Yeah, I'm surprised there isn't at least one trad chapel nearby. At least his being a former Episcopalian organist might mean their liturgical music is good :laugh1:
-
The pastor was ordained by a Maronite bishop, so you're good. He is a former Episcopalian that was received directly into that rite.
Maronite convert leads city parish (southcoasttoday.com) (https://www.southcoasttoday.com/story/lifestyle/faith/2007/05/19/maronite-convert-leads-city-parish/52894037007/)
It's rather unfortunate that for such a large city, the liturgical options are awful.
LOL ... I like to look one generation more, to see the origins of said Maronite Bishop. If you could get his name, he could be looked up on catholic-hierarchy.org. As a rule, they tend not to pick bishops from priests who had come over from other Rites, but I know of one Ruthenian bishop who had been ordained an NO priest.
In any case, he doesn't have Lebanese/Arabic background himself, so even less reason to feel awkward, and it said this about his church:
"So many Roman Catholics came to worship and fell in love with Maronite spirituality," Father Jack said. "Ninety percent of the parish were Latin Catholics."
This is undoubtedly due to people fleeing the NO and the NOM, and not just because they "fell in love with Maronite spirituality". So at least you're probably looking at more conservative types, who had enough Catholic sense to walk away from the NO. I was told the same thing by one Ukrainian Rite priest from the Pittsburgh area, that most of his church were refugees from the Roman Rite who "didn't like the changes of Vatican II."
-
LOL ... I like to look one generation more, to see the origins of said Maronite Bishop. If you could get his name, he could be looked up on catholic-hierarchy.org. As a rule, they tend not to pick bishops from priests who had come over from other Rites, but I know of one Ruthenian bishop who had been ordained an NO priest.
Their bishop is Bishop Gregory John Mansour
https://www.catholic-hierarchy.org/bishop/bmansou.html
Ordained by Bp. John George Chedid, consecrated by Nasrallah Boutros Cardinal Sfeir, all Melkite, so the orders are good.
In any case, he doesn't have Lebanese/Arabic background himself, so even less reason to feel awkward, and it said this about his church:
This is undoubtedly due to people fleeing the NO and the NOM, and not just because they "fell in love with Maronite spirituality". So at least you're probably looking at more conservative types, who had enough Catholic sense to walk away from the NO. I was told the same thing by one Ukrainian Rite priest from the Pittsburgh area, that most of his church were refugees from the Roman Rite who "didn't like the changes of Vatican II."
That'll be interesting to find out. I'm sure there will be more traditionally-minded folks there just on the basis of legitimate Holy Orders.
-
https://youtu.be/6GRxlZg_p6o
-
There is a Maronite Catholic church in Fayetteville, St Michael the Archangel:
https://www.stmichaelsmaronite.net/ (https://www.stmichaelsmaronite.net/)
I found some of their streams on Facebook of Divine Liturgy. It doesn't seem intolerable, like a "good" NOM. The music is not great, but I don't really care about that anyway (I won't lie, I find some of the Latin choirs come across as a little overlong and self-indulgent at times during TLM). No terrible abuses from what I skimmed, communion under both species so no communion in the hand.
https://fb.watch/j8CaR5QYmY/
-
My uncle and Godfather received Last Rites from a Maronite priest when my aunt searched high and low for a priest from her own (Roman rite) parish and diocese. Literally nobody would come and he was dying. He was requesting a priest whenever he was lucid. A neighbor from a few blocks away came over with a few pieces of mail inadvertently sent to his home, (last names were similar and they had similar street addresses). She and her husband were from Lebanon and went to a small Maronite Church that got going in the mid-1980’s. The priest was more than willing. My uncle went to confession, received Communion, fell asleep and died that night in his sleep.
-
My uncle and Godfather received Last Rites from a Maronite priest when my aunt searched high and low for a priest from her own (Roman rite) parish and diocese. Literally nobody would come and he was dying. He was requesting a priest whenever he was lucid. A neighbor from a few blocks away came over with a few pieces of mail inadvertently sent to his home, (last names were similar and they had similar street addresses). She and her husband were from Lebanon and went to a small Maronite Church that got going in the mid-1980’s. The priest was more than willing. My uncle went to confession, received Communion, fell asleep and died that night in his sleep.
Blessed be God!
-
What masses do you have access to now?
-
My uncle and Godfather received Last Rites from a Maronite priest when my aunt searched high and low for a priest from her own (Roman rite) parish and diocese. Literally nobody would come and he was dying. He was requesting a priest whenever he was lucid. A neighbor from a few blocks away came over with a few pieces of mail inadvertently sent to his home, (last names were similar and they had similar street addresses). She and her husband were from Lebanon and went to a small Maronite Church that got going in the mid-1980’s. The priest was more than willing. My uncle went to confession, received Communion, fell asleep and died that night in his sleep.
Did they at least tell you why none would come?
-
What masses do you have access to now?
Here in Wisconsin I've been going to an SSPX chapel 35 minutes away for two years. This weekend me and my son are going to check out St. George Melkite Byzantine Church in Milwaukee on our way to have a boy's day. Otherwise, everything else, including two sede chapels and Byzantine churches are over 2 hours.
In North Carolina, its a wasteland, truly. Nearest SSPX chapels are close to two hours from where we will be looking to live. A Byzantine church anywhere from 45 minutes to an hour 1/2, depending on where we get a house; and then the one sede chapel you suggested would be 4 1/2 hours. The Maronite Church would remain within 20 minutes to an hour, again, depending on where we get a house.
-
Here in Wisconsin I've been going to an SSPX chapel 35 minutes away for two years. This weekend me and my son are going to check out St. George Melkite Byzantine Church in Milwaukee on our way to have a boy's day. Otherwise, everything else, including two sede chapels and Byzantine churches are over 2 hours.
In North Carolina, its a wasteland, truly. Nearest SSPX chapels are close to two hours from where we will be looking to live. A Byzantine church anywhere from 45 minutes to an hour 1/2, depending on where we get a house; and then the one sede chapel you suggested would be 4 1/2 hours. The Maronite Church would remain within 20 minutes to an hour, again, depending on where we get a house.
Why on earth would you move from Wisconsin to the NC?? Idk why anybody would move to the Coasts if they had a choice, discounting Alaska, of course.
-
Here in Wisconsin I've been going to an SSPX chapel 35 minutes away for two years. This weekend me and my son are going to check out St. George Melkite Byzantine Church in Milwaukee on our way to have a boy's day. Otherwise, everything else, including two sede chapels and Byzantine churches are over 2 hours.
In North Carolina, its a wasteland, truly. Nearest SSPX chapels are close to two hours from where we will be looking to live. A Byzantine church anywhere from 45 minutes to an hour 1/2, depending on where we get a house; and then the one sede chapel you suggested would be 4 1/2 hours. The Maronite Church would remain within 20 minutes to an hour, again, depending on where we get a house.
Nah. I'm pretty sure I've got you beat in Vermont. Hence our monthly trips to a sede mass 4+hours away.
-
Nah. I'm pretty sure I've got you beat in Vermont. Hence our monthly trips to a sede mass 4+hours away.
You sure do. I had to take a look on Google maps and it's more of a desert there than here or NC!
Why on earth would you move from Wisconsin to the NC?? Idk why anybody would move to the Coasts if they had a choice, discounting Alaska, of course.
Climate, we like the area, I have a job there, my wife's parents are moving there, her brother and sister-in-law live there, even my parents will be moving down there once my dad is better. Plenty of reasons, really.
-
Ordained by Bp. John George Chedid, consecrated by Nasrallah Boutros Cardinal Sfeir, all Melkite, so the orders are good.
They're Maronite not melkite Sfeir is the last Maronite patriarch
Also Ladislas
Mitch pacwa is originally Maronite, not Latin, pretty sure he never transferred to the Latin rite even as a Jesuit, not all Jesuits change rites
-
They're Maronite not melkite Sfeir is the last Maronite patriarch
Whoops, my bad :facepalm:
Also Ladislas
Mitch pacwa is originally Maronite, not Latin, pretty sure he never transferred to the Latin rite even as a Jesuit, not all Jesuits change rites
Who was he ordained by?
-
Climate, we like the area, I have a job there, my wife's parents are moving there, her brother and sister-in-law live there, even my parents will be moving down there once my dad is better. Plenty of reasons, really.
I guess. If I could afford it I would be back up in Alaska and say goodbye to the lower 48 for good.
-
Also Ladislas
Mitch pacwa is originally Maronite, not Latin, pretty sure he never transferred to the Latin rite even as a Jesuit, not all Jesuits change rites
I'm not finding any information that corresponds to this claim, only that he was ordained in the Society of Jesus in 1976. Unless someone has a different source for this, to me it sounds like he was ordained in the New Rite (which isn't problematic if it was done by a bishop from the Old Rite, given the time frame)
-
I'm not finding any information that corresponds to this claim, only that he was ordained in the Society of Jesus in 1976. Unless someone has a different source for this, to me it sounds like he was ordained in the New Rite (which isn't problematic if it was done by a bishop from the Old Rite, given the time frame)
So are you now of the opinion that the NO Ordinations are certainly valid (and not at least doubtful)?
-
So are you now of the opinion that the NO Ordinations are certainly valid (and not at least doubtful)?
Well, the question with those ordinations is the intent is it not? As the prayer used is virtually the same. The act taken by a legitimate bishop (see: OLD RITE) to ordain a priest would mean the intent is good and could be valid. The real question lies with the Episcopal orders , yes?
And looking at the bishop of Detroit at that time, assuming he was ordained by the bishop there, not someone else, means it is likely an invalid ordination given that the bishop has doubtful Orders.
-
Well, the question with those ordinations is the intent is it not? As the prayer used is virtually the same. The act taken by a legitimate bishop (see: OLD RITE) to ordain a priest would mean the intent is good and could be valid. The real question lies with the Episcopal orders , yes?
Intent? "Virtually the same"? You mean like the SSPX seems to believe?
Are you even keeping up with the thread you started on the "validity of the NO"?
The issue is the form and "virtually the same" is not "the same". How is the new form of the ordination rite not at least doubtful given the changes also made to the NREC?
And you didn't answer my question: do you now believe the New Rite of Ordination is certainly valid?
-
And you didn't answer my question: do you now believe the New Rite of Ordination is certainly valid?
No. And I tire of your witch hunt. You DM me basically trying to check my sedevacantist purity for opening a discussion on the matter and now you're pushing that I CERTANLY believe such a thing.
I don’t know with certainty. YOU don't know with certainty. NO ONE BUT GOD KNOWS WITH CERTAINTY
-
No. And I tire of your witch hunt.
And I'm tired of your hypocritical stance regarding the divisions caused by the Trad wars when you had no issue posting a video that is clearly anti-sede.
-
No. And I tire of your witch hunt. You DM me basically trying to check my sedevacantist purity for opening a discussion on the matter and now you're pushing that I CERTANLY believe such a thing.
I don’t know with certainty. YOU don't know with certainty. NO ONE BUT GOD KNOWS WITH CERTAINTY
If you have no issue with Mitch Pacwa's new rite ordination so long as he was ordained by an Old Rite bishop, then you do believe that the New Rite ordination is valid.
-
And I'm tired of your hypocritical stance regarding the divisions caused by the Trad wars when you had no issue posting a video that is clearly anti-sede.
Anti-sede, but not anti-Catholic. I myself am growing "anti-sede" in the sense that it now entails an entire set of beliefs and practices set apart from the rest beyond merely not believing these Popes are legitimate.
I would be accused of being anti-R&R and starting "trad wars" if I just posted Fr. Cekada videos too. You can't simply discuss anything on a Catholic forum without being accused of offending idol A or B. To hell with it all.
-
Anti-sede, but not anti-Catholic. I myself am growing "anti-sede" in the sense that it now entails an entire set of beliefs and practices set apart from the rest beyond merely not believing these Popes are legitimate.
I would be accused of being anti-R&R and starting "trad wars" if I just posted Fr. Cekada videos too. You can't simply discuss anything on a Catholic forum without being accused of offending idol A or B. To hell with it all.
Anyone who doesn't want to add fuel to the so-called trad war fire or get involved with it wouldn't post either.
-
The real question lies with the Episcopal orders , yes?
Unfortunately, no. There's enough there to constitute positive doubt even about the NO rite for ordaining priests, not only the removal of the "ut" but removal throughout the entire rite of anything related to the priest's power to offer sacrifice, forgive sins, etc. (the same reasons that Pope Leo XIII stated that the Anglican Rite was invalid even after they attempted to "fix" the essential form).
But the removal of "ut" is very significant in that it severs the link between the Holy Ghost and the Sacramental effect, and no longer explicitly invokes the Holy Ghost in order to produce said effect. Rather, it's broken up into two pieces, 1) invoking the Holy Ghost (who can be invoked for myriad reasons, including just sanctifying souls), and 2) praying that (God?) would make the man a priest. One can try to argue that there's an "implicit" link there, but that's IMO only due to reading into it the previous version. If you saw this rite and were not familiar with the earlier version, would you read into this that the Holy Ghost is being asked to make the person a priest? That link is not necessarily there in the text.
Why did these people BOTHER to take out a single two-letter word? Was this somehow "improving" or making more "modern" the essential form? This leads to a strong suspicion that it was doen on purpose to delibertely invalidate the rite.
"ut" indicates causality, that the Holy Ghost causes or effects the ordination, but that explicit causal link between the Holy Ghost and the Sacramental effect is missing in the new rite.
-
Anti-sede, but not anti-Catholic. I myself am growing "anti-sede" in the sense that it now entails an entire set of beliefs and practices set apart from the rest beyond merely not believing these Popes are legitimate.
I would be accused of being anti-R&R and starting "trad wars" if I just posted Fr. Cekada videos too. You can't simply discuss anything on a Catholic forum without being accused of offending idol A or B. To hell with it all.
I think you're throwing out the baby with the bathwater here. There are some, mostly the radical dogmatic SV types that you've had a bad experience with, but this doesn't mean that Jorge Bergoglio is the pope. He's clearly not. There are some more balanced positions out there that don't lead to the excesses of the dogmatic sedevacantists, not excluding that of Father Chazal. Your association this entire "set of beliefs and practices" is to give in and allow the dogmatic SV to define what it means to be a sedevacantist. There are many moderate SVs out there who overlap with the moderate R&R ... at least as far as their attitude of being somewhat tolerant regarding things that fall short of settled Catholic doctrine.
You don't have to declare everybody and his uncle a heretic in order to hold that Bergoglio is no pope and that the papacy is protected by the Holy Spirit from grave error (something that even Archbishop Lefebvre affirmed).
You don't have to de-canonize and de-Doctorize Saint Alphonsus. This thinking comes from the binary mentality where someone is either 100% right about everything or else a bad-willed malicious heretic. It's possible to disagree respectfully with a St. Alphonsus without reviling him.
-
DL
I am not sure who ordained him but for priests who will be biritual they sometimes give permission to be ordained by the other rites bishop, so no idea if he was ordained by the Jesuits or bishop Zayek. He would probably want Zayek if it was possible as he was the only Maronite bishop in the US at the time
-
I'm largely ignorant of this liturgy but have seen it thrown around with disdain here. The area im looking to move would have a Maronite Church right in town (https://maps.app.goo.gl/5jUfrDSennhUJBsB6), but is it valid like the Tridentine or Eastern liturgies? Or to be avoided like the NOM?
I have looked for Eastern Rite possibilities in the past, and never succeeded. I found that these parishes are very liberal, and pray in the vulgar tongue. They are pretty much NO venues with a Mediterranean twist.
I don't think the NO hierarchy is going to let any official organ in communion with their sect remain integral and intact. But if you find something to the contrary, I'm all ears; because I would run this way in a heartbeat if I could find orthodoxy in belief and liturgy.
-
This really answered my own question.
Upon further reflection of this article, my outrage is comparable to the hack job they did to the Roman rite with the NOM. There were elements, such as the recitation of Psalm 50 which had existed in the liturgy since the 5th century, that were completely removed to accommodate for Bugninian opposition to repetition.
Even if it were valid (in the sense of Holy Orders, technically a post-BXVI NOM would be "valid" if performed by a traditionally-ordained priest), I couldn't in good conscience attend it knowing now how they butchered the liturgy. :facepalm:
There may be something objectively even more beautiful about the Eastern Rites than the more, say, logical and characteristically Roman, Latin Rite. And it follows that vulgarization, modernization, and "reformation" of these heavenly liturgies is even more reprehensible, at least under the aspect of beauty.
-
Anti-sede, but not anti-Catholic. I myself am growing "anti-sede" in the sense that it now entails an entire set of beliefs and practices set apart from the rest beyond merely not believing these Popes are legitimate.
I would be accused of being anti-R&R and starting "trad wars" if I just posted Fr. Cekada videos too. You can't simply discuss anything on a Catholic forum without being accused of offending idol A or B. To hell with it all.
Though I have a moral conviction that the novus ordo is NOT the Catholic Church, and that these "popes" of the VII council are not Catholics, and therefore not legitimate Vicars of Christ, I steadfastly refuse to call myself a sedevacantist.
A Catholic is a real being; hence it is logically and metaphysically proper to call oneself a Catholic. But properly speaking, there is no such thing as a sedevacantist. The term does not signify any real being. Thus it is improper and false to call oneself a sedevacantist; because by doing so one identifies with non-being.
Most unfortunately, this truth/distinction is never discussed; and Catholics are endlessly lured into the trap of making themselves out to be something they are not, and can never be.
It is perfectly reasonable to conclude that the See of Peter is occupied by an anti-pope. But this conclusion is an intellectual judgment, and no more. It is a judgment upon which one may base their practical and intellectual actions, but no more. A judgment is an act of the intellectual faculty. It is not a real being. The term sedevacantist, which is derived from a judgment that the See of Peter has been usurped or occupied by fakers, nevertheless cannot designate any real being; whereas the term "Catholic" most certainly designates a real being, namely a member of the Mystical Body of Christ.
Because people have fallen into the intellectual error of equating "sedevacantist" with real being, many of those calling themselves sedevacantist have made a mere judgment - and a merely human judgment at that - into their very religion. In certain persons who call themselves sedevacantist, this judgment has become a false identification which has supplanted the true identification of Catholic.
It is metaphysically impossible to identity with a judgment. But how may there are who do so identify themselves. How can this not be a terrible source of division within the ranks of Catholics who strive to hold the Faith? It is just as harmful and divisive as anathematizing anyone who questions the legitimacy of the VII papal poseurs.
-
Though I have a moral conviction that the novus ordo is NOT the Catholic Church, and that these "popes" of the VII council are not Catholics, and therefore not legitimate Vicars of Christ, I steadfastly refuse to call myself a sedevacantist.
A Catholic is a real being; hence it is logically and metaphysically proper to call oneself a Catholic. But properly speaking, there is no such thing as a sedevacantist. The term does not signify any real being. Thus it is improper and false to call oneself a sedevacantist; because by doing so one identifies with non-being.
Most unfortunately, this truth/distinction is never discussed; and Catholics are endlessly lured into the trap of making themselves out to be something they are not, and can never be.
It is perfectly reasonable to conclude that the See of Peter is occupied by an anti-pope. But this conclusion is an intellectual judgment, and no more. It is a judgment upon which one may base their practical and intellectual actions, but no more. A judgment is an act of the intellectual faculty. It is not a real being. The term sedevacantist, which is derived from a judgment that the See of Peter has been usurped or occupied by fakers, nevertheless cannot designate any real being; whereas the term "Catholic" most certainly designates a real being, namely a member of the Mystical Body of Christ.
Because people have fallen into the intellectual error of equating "sedevacantist" with real being, many of those calling themselves sedevacantist have made a mere judgment - and a merely human judgment at that - into their very religion. In certain persons who call themselves sedevacantist, this judgment has become a false identification which has supplanted the true identification of Catholic.
It is metaphysically impossible to identity with a judgment. But how may there are who do so identify themselves. How can this not be a terrible source of division within the ranks of Catholics who strive to hold the Faith? It is just as harmful and divisive as anathematizing anyone who questions the legitimacy of the VII papal poseurs.
The term sedevancantism has been used since the usurpation of the Seat in 1958 as a label to brand Catholics who deny the “Hollywood jew-show” known as modern Rome.
Even Msgr Bugnini craftily asserted that doubters of the authority of Liturgical change took the position that the pope was not the pope.
“Sedevanctism” has become talismatic word used to paralyze thinking Catholics who question the schismatic church.
-
I'm largely ignorant of this liturgy but have seen it thrown around with disdain here. The area im looking to move would have a Maronite Church right in town (https://maps.app.goo.gl/5jUfrDSennhUJBsB6), but is it valid like the Tridentine or Eastern liturgies? Or to be avoided like the NOM?
It is a valid liturgy. Several parts of the mass, including the consecration, are in Aramaic and ancient Syriac. Communion is done by intinction, so there is no risk of profanation of the Eucharist by communion in the hand. However, there are lay 'lectors,' and in many places, there is a lack of reverence in church once mass is over. The priest also says Mass facing the people, similar if not identical to the New mass.