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Author Topic: The Maronite liturgy?  (Read 6575 times)

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Re: The Maronite liturgy?
« Reply #45 on: March 11, 2023, 09:13:07 AM »
No. And I tire of your witch hunt.
And I'm tired of your hypocritical stance regarding the divisions caused by the Trad wars when you had no issue posting a video that is clearly anti-sede.   

Re: The Maronite liturgy?
« Reply #46 on: March 11, 2023, 09:15:08 AM »
No. And I tire of your witch hunt. You DM me basically trying to check my sedevacantist purity for opening a discussion on the matter and now you're pushing that I CERTANLY believe such a thing.

I don’t know with certainty. YOU don't know with certainty. NO ONE BUT GOD KNOWS WITH CERTAINTY
If you have no issue with Mitch Pacwa's new rite ordination so long as he was ordained by an Old Rite bishop, then you do believe that the New Rite ordination is valid. 


Re: The Maronite liturgy?
« Reply #47 on: March 11, 2023, 09:17:42 AM »
And I'm tired of your hypocritical stance regarding the divisions caused by the Trad wars when you had no issue posting a video that is clearly anti-sede. 
Anti-sede, but not anti-Catholic. I myself am growing "anti-sede" in the sense that it now entails an entire set of beliefs and practices set apart from the rest beyond merely not believing these Popes are legitimate.

I would be accused of being anti-R&R and starting "trad wars" if I just posted Fr. Cekada videos too. You can't simply discuss anything on a Catholic forum without being accused of offending idol A or B. To hell with it all.

Re: The Maronite liturgy?
« Reply #48 on: March 11, 2023, 09:26:01 AM »
Anti-sede, but not anti-Catholic. I myself am growing "anti-sede" in the sense that it now entails an entire set of beliefs and practices set apart from the rest beyond merely not believing these Popes are legitimate.

I would be accused of being anti-R&R and starting "trad wars" if I just posted Fr. Cekada videos too. You can't simply discuss anything on a Catholic forum without being accused of offending idol A or B. To hell with it all.
Anyone who doesn't want to add fuel to the so-called trad war fire or get involved with it wouldn't post either.  

Offline Ladislaus

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Re: The Maronite liturgy?
« Reply #49 on: March 11, 2023, 09:28:24 AM »
The real question lies with the Episcopal orders , yes?

Unfortunately, no.  There's enough there to constitute positive doubt even about the NO rite for ordaining priests, not only the removal of the "ut" but removal throughout the entire rite of anything related to the priest's power to offer sacrifice, forgive sins, etc. (the same reasons that Pope Leo XIII stated that the Anglican Rite was invalid even after they attempted to "fix" the essential form).

But the removal of "ut" is very significant in that it severs the link between the Holy Ghost and the Sacramental effect, and no longer explicitly invokes the Holy Ghost in order to produce said effect.  Rather, it's broken up into two pieces, 1) invoking the Holy Ghost (who can be invoked for myriad reasons, including just sanctifying souls), and 2) praying that (God?) would make the man a priest.  One can try to argue that there's an "implicit" link there, but that's IMO only due to reading into it the previous version.  If you saw this rite and were not familiar with the earlier version, would you read into this that the Holy Ghost is being asked to make the person a priest?  That link is not necessarily there in the text.

Why did these people BOTHER to take out a single two-letter word?  Was this somehow "improving" or making more "modern" the essential form?  This leads to a strong suspicion that it was doen on purpose to delibertely invalidate the rite.

"ut" indicates causality, that the Holy Ghost causes or effects the ordination, but that explicit causal link between the Holy Ghost and the Sacramental effect is missing in the new rite.