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Author Topic: The Heretical Pope Fallacy  (Read 62028 times)

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Offline Stubborn

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Re: The Heretical Pope Fallacy
« Reply #30 on: January 03, 2018, 10:48:35 AM »
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  • What an idiot!  :facepalm:  You apparently can't even read plain English.

    I could cite about 10 other paragraphs as well.
    Try hard and see if you can read what I already posted from that link you doubting nincompoop. The magisterium is always infallible. Quote it 10 more times if you need to.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: The Heretical Pope Fallacy
    « Reply #31 on: January 03, 2018, 11:20:41 AM »
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    The link looks to be spot on and agrees with what I said - that the magisterium is always infallible.
    As Lee Corso would say: "Not so fast, my friend".  It depends which type you are talking about - there are 3 types of magisteriums and ALL have multiple names.  So confusing!

    1.  Solemn/Extraordinary magisterium - when the pope issues a dogmatic, solemn decree (i.e. ex cathedra), as outlined by Vatican I.
    Example:  Dogma of the Assumption defined in the 1950s by Pius XII.

    2.  Ordinary Infallible magisterium (or 'ordinary and universal') - when the pope teaches "what has always been taught" without using solemn, dogmatic language.
    Example:  Humanae Vitae enclycical which re-stated the Church's opposition to birth control and upheld the Natural Law.

    -  Cardinal Siri:  "This Encyclical recapitulated the ancient teaching and the habitual teaching of today. This means that we can say that the conditions for the Ordinary irreformable [i.e., infallible - Ed.] Magisterium were met."
    -  In the case of the [Ordinary] universal Magisterium, this whole complex is that of the concordant teaching of the bishops in communion with Rome; in the case of the Ordinary pontifical Magisterium [i.e., the pope alone - Ed.], it is the continuity of teaching of the successors of Peter: in other words, it is the "tradition of the Church of Rome," to which Msgr. Gasser appealed at Vatican I (Collana Lacensis, col.404).

    My comment:  The ordinary magisterium is only infallible when it is in continuity with the teachings of all the popes (as it says above); when it agrees with the "traditions of the Church of rome".  Ergo, when it teaches "what has always been taught".

    3.  Authentic magisterium (or just 'ordinary') - teaching of the pope/bishops/cardinals which has no authoritative language, and does not teach "that which has always been taught", like a simple speech given by the pope to pilgrims in St Peter's square, or his annual 'urbi et orbi' speech, or even a Bishop's conference...or even Vatican II.

    This means, in effect, that an "isolated act" of the pope is infallible only in the context of a "dogmatic definition"; outside dogmatic definitions, i.e., in the Ordinary Magisterium, infallibility is guaranteed by the complex of "countless other similar acts of the Holy See," or of a "long succession" of the successors of Peter.


    What of Vatican II?
    Vatican II did not use its Solemn infallibility because the pope issued no doctrinal statements ex cathedra.  Therefore the following quote applies:
    As regards those non-infallible doctrinal decisions given by the pope or by the Roman congregations, there is a strict duty of obedience which obliges us to give an internal assent ...that is prudent and habitually excludes all reasonable doubt, but this assent is legitimized [not by infallibility, but rather] by the high degree of prudence with which the ecclesiastical authority habitually acts in such circuмstances" (entry "Église" in DTC, vol.IV, co1.2209).

    Comment:  Since our assent is usually given because the ecclesiastical authorities USUALLY act with prudence, then our assent is legitimized.  If the hierarchy DOES NOT ACT WITH PRUDENCE then our assent has 'reasonable doubts' and it is conditional.  Such is the case with V2.

    Since not everything taught by the Ordinary Magisterium is infallible, we must ask what kind of assent we should give to its various decisions. The Christian is required to give the assent of faith to all the doctrinal and moral truths defined by the Church's Magisterium (there were none at V2). He is not required to give the same assent to teaching imparted by the sovereign pontiff that is not imposed on the whole Christian body as a dogma of faith (nothing from V2 is binding). In this case it suffices to give that inner and religious assent which we give to legitimate ecclesiastical authority. (this is why new-rome says we must give 'religious assent' to V2) This is not an absolute assent, because such decrees are not infallible, but only a prudential and conditional assent, since in questions of faith and morals there is a presumption in favor of one's superior (under normal circuмstances, yes, we trust our superiors.  Not in the case of post-V2)....Such prudential assent does not eliminate the possibility of submitting the doctrine to a further examination, if that seems required by the gravity of the question (Nicolas Jung, Le Magistère de L’Èglise, 1935, pp.153,154). 

    Comment:  Since V2 did not define, formally teach, bind, or clarify any doctrine, but only proposed PASTORAL APPLICATIONS of doctrine (i.e. how do pastors apply doctrine to the everyday lives of catholics?), therefore its purpose was different from ALL OTHER EcuмENICAL COUNCILS IN THE HISTORY OF THE CHURCH.  For this reason alone (not to mention the novelties contained in it), we have every reason and freedom to pause and consider our 'religious assent' in the face of the doubts and novel approach of our ecclesiastical authorities.


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: The Heretical Pope Fallacy
    « Reply #32 on: January 03, 2018, 11:24:30 AM »
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  • Bellator, obviously Leo XIII is talking about when the 'ordinary' is infallible.  Since his time, theologians have studied this topic and there's so many different names that it makes your head bobble.

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: The Heretical Pope Fallacy
    « Reply #33 on: January 03, 2018, 11:45:00 AM »
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  • As Lee Corso would say: "Not so fast, my friend".  It depends which type you are talking about - there are 3 types of magisteriums and ALL have multiple names.  So confusing!
    Yes, it is confusing, as Lad's link said: "In conclusion we shall excerpt the text of a theologian, whose passing is much to be regretted, who had a very clear grasp of the doctrine we are recalling here, and who knew well that it had been brought into confusion by the New Theologians."

    What we know is that V1 mentions 3 separate magisteriums - 1) Divine Magisterium, 2) Ordinary Magisterium and 3) Universal Magisterium. Then theologians and even popes introduced other magisteriums that have or can have, different meanings.

    Personally, when I speak of the magisterium, I only speak of V1's - those, being binding, are all always infallible. The magisteriums meantioned by other sources are confusing because it appears that they have more than a single meaning, as such may or may not  be infallible.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: The Heretical Pope Fallacy
    « Reply #34 on: January 03, 2018, 12:13:43 PM »
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  • This is true that bishops alone or the Pope, clearly not intending to teach the whole Church something, is not infallible. The problem is that this cannot be part of the Magisterium since there are numerous Papal Teachings which state that any form of Magisterium (there are only 2 categories) is infallible. There has never been any statement by a Pope that the Magisterium can err in any capacity whatsoever.

    As for Vatican II, if it had valid Popes presiding over it, it was definitely infallible. This means that it would have infallibly taught error and the Gates of Hell prevailed against the Church. There is nothing in Church history which one can point to that would prove that an official Pope approved Ecuмenical Council of the Catholic Church could be anything less than Infallible. Any aspect touching morals and faith would be infallible. Our Lord said "Where two or three are gathered together in my name, I am there in the midst of them." This applies to all the General Councils. One would NOT be able to point to any part of a Council of the past dealing with faith or morals that one is free to reject as not Infallible. This is why we can appeal to any Docuмent of a Council, not dealing with changeable disciplines, to refute any heretic that comes along.
    So either Vatican II is infallible and religious liberty is divinely revealed or we worship the same god as muslims etc... or the men presiding over them were not Catholic and had no authority to call a council.
    In that regard, all V2 proves is that it was not infallible, that is all it proves in that regard,and it actually proves this in virtue of it's own teachings riddled with error and heresies. It apparently takes great faith in the doctrine of papal infallibility to accept this fact because without that faith, people start theorizing all sorts of wild theories till they become doctrines unto themselves. It further proves that the ideas held by the masses as regards infallibility of popes and councils are decidedly false.

    That is what V2 actually and indisputably proves as regards papal infallibility and the infallibility of ecuмenical councils.
     
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: The Heretical Pope Fallacy
    « Reply #35 on: January 03, 2018, 12:26:03 PM »
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    Let me make it less confusing for you, man...
    All of the quotes in that article are from pre-V2 times, so we have some trust that these theologians were orthodox.  Yes, there are not 3 magisteriums (strictly speaking) but 3 LEVELS of the magisterium.  Sorry for not being precise; I assumed you would understand since you read the article.

    Offline Incredulous

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    Re: The Heretical Pope Fallacy
    « Reply #36 on: January 03, 2018, 12:36:37 PM »
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  • I have to disagree.  Dogma is not the proximate rule of faith.  Neither is the pope himself personally.  Proximate rule of faith is the Magisterium.

    Dogma is in fact the OBJECT of our faith.  We have the remote rule of faith in Scripture/Tradition, and the proximate role of faith in the Magisterium.

    Truth of the matter is actually in between the two sides debating in the OP.

    Ladislaus, Please guide me on my thinking here.

    So, it seems the modern popes have broken with tradition and the proximate rule of faith (Magisterium), but have not made any Dogmatic decrees from the seat?   Is this correct?

    If this is correct, why would it be?  

    From his record, why wouldn't Francis just go for it, and make a heretical dogmatic pronouncement from the Seat of Peter?

    Even a de facto, destroyer Pope would know, the Holy Ghost would block him from doing so?

    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: The Heretical Pope Fallacy
    « Reply #37 on: January 03, 2018, 12:41:52 PM »
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    This is true that bishops alone or the Pope, clearly not intending to teach the whole Church something, is not infallible. The problem is that this cannot be part of the Magisterium since there are numerous Papal Teachings which state that any form of Magisterium (there are only 2 categories) is infallible. There has never been any statement by a Pope that the Magisterium can err in any capacity whatsoever.
    The pre-V2 theologians who were quoted in the article are not contradicting previous papal statements, but are further distinguishing the different levels of the magisterium (since in the past, the orthodox hierarchy spoke only orthodox things).  Such a distinguishment was necessary because in the 1900s, popes had the duty of speaking on non-doctrinal matters (i.e. communism, social theory, education) which may or may not be infallible, depending.


    Quote
    As for Vatican II, if it had valid Popes presiding over it, it was definitely infallible.
    No, no, no.  Just because a pope gives a talk in St Peter's square does not make it infallible.  Just because a pope writes an encyclical does not make it infallible.  Just because the pope presides at a council does not make it infallible.  All previous ecuмenical councils were infallible (because they officially taught doctrine) but that does not mean that all ecuмenical councils are infallible, just because they're ecuмenical.


    Quote
    This means that it would have infallibly taught error and the Gates of Hell prevailed against the Church. There is nothing in Church history which one can point to that would prove that an official Pope approved Ecuмenical Council of the Catholic Church could be anything less than Infallible. Any aspect touching morals and faith would be infallible. Our Lord said "Where two or three are gathered together in my name, I am there in the midst of them." This applies to all the General Councils. One would NOT be able to point to any part of a Council of the past dealing with faith or morals that one is free to reject as not Infallible. This is why we can appeal to any Docuмent of a Council, not dealing with changeable disciplines, to refute any heretic that comes along.
    Previous councils were infallible because they defined doctrine.  If they had not, they would not have been.  V2 was unique in that it was the first ecuмenical council to not define doctrine.


    Quote
    So either Vatican II is infallible and religious liberty is divinely revealed or we worship the same god as muslims etc... or the men presiding over them were not Catholic and had no authority to call a council.
    Or...V2 didn't define doctrine (solemn magisterium) and it didn't teach "what has always been taught" (ordinary and universal magisterium) therefore it only employed its "merely authentic" or "ordinary" magisterium which is fallible.  Therefore, it requires no "assent" because
    1) it never said it required assent (which is a requirement to be infallible), and
    2) no catholic is required to give assent to matters which are not clearly "matters of faith", even if such matters are related to doctrine/faith/morals.


    Offline Incredulous

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    Re: The Heretical Pope Fallacy
    « Reply #38 on: January 03, 2018, 12:42:15 PM »
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  • As Lee Corso would say: "Not so fast, my friend".  It depends which type you are talking about - there are 3 types of magisteriums and ALL have multiple names.  So confusing!
    For the readers, please explain who Lee Corso is ?

    (They may think he's some pious Benedictine Italian monk)
    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: The Heretical Pope Fallacy
    « Reply #39 on: January 03, 2018, 12:43:06 PM »
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  • First, what you said proves that you have no faith that what the Councils of the Church teach is infallible, thereby giving you no reason whatsoever to use a Council to prove any of your points.

    Second, since all of the prerequisites were met for Vatican II to be an act of the Magisterium, it would most definitely be infallible, were the claimants presiding actually Popes.

    Third, what all this proves is that it cannot be a Council of the Catholic Church and the men presiding were not Popes. If they were, the Church has defected and the Gates of Hell have prevailed.
    First, if you have any faith at all and want to keep it, all we can say with absolute certainty of faith is that V2 was not infallible. All other opinions and theories are simply that, useless opinions and useless theories elevated to be doctrines by those with no faith and no faith in the doctrine of infallibility.

    Second, per V1, the prerequisites for infallibility were not met at V2. 

    Third, it was a council of the Catholic Church - you can dispute this indisputable fact all you like, but that will never change indisputable fact. Note that in spite of that indisputable fact, the Catholic Church has not been destroyed.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: The Heretical Pope Fallacy
    « Reply #40 on: January 03, 2018, 12:44:37 PM »
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  • Ladislaus, Please guide me on my thinking here.

    So, it seems the modern popes have broken with tradition and the proximate rule of faith (Magisterium), but have not made any Dogmatic decrees from the seat?   Is this correct?

    If this is correct, why would it be?  

    From his record, why wouldn't Francis just go for it, and make a heretical dogmatic pronouncement from the Seat of Peter?

    Even a de facto, destroyer Pope would know, the Holy Ghost would block him from doing so?
    Great points!
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: The Heretical Pope Fallacy
    « Reply #41 on: January 03, 2018, 12:49:52 PM »
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    There are no "levels" of the magisterium...
    Bellator, you sound foolish and it goes to show you haven't read the article.  Go read it and get back to us.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: The Heretical Pope Fallacy
    « Reply #42 on: January 03, 2018, 01:00:05 PM »
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  • The magisterium is always infallible.

    In that case, dude, you'd better accept Religious Liberty as de fide.

    [Of course we know that you have redefined "Magisterium" to include only the true things taught by popes ... so making infallibility into a tautology.]

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: The Heretical Pope Fallacy
    « Reply #43 on: January 03, 2018, 01:06:57 PM »
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  • So, for those who claim that the Magisterium is always infallible, are you claiming that every word that came out of Pius XII's mouth that appeared in AAS is to be regarded as infallible?

    [I'm talking to the SVs here.  Stubborn has redefined Magisterium according to his Magisterium-sifting principles and does not believe in a priori infallibility for anything except solemn definitions].

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: The Heretical Pope Fallacy
    « Reply #44 on: January 03, 2018, 01:13:01 PM »
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  • In that case, dude, you'd better accept Religious Liberty as de fide.

    [Of course we know that you have redefined "Magisterium" to include only the true things taught by popes ... so making infallibility into a tautology.]
    No, I cannot accept RL at all, certainly not based on you having an altogether ridiculous understanding of what the Magisterium even is - re: your sededoubtism.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse