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Author Topic: The Heretical Pope Fallacy  (Read 73942 times)

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Online Pax Vobis

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Re: The Heretical Pope Fallacy
« Reply #290 on: January 11, 2018, 01:25:26 PM »
Quote
That is completely alien to any true sensus Catholicus.
It is also an alien concept that the Church hierarchy is full of people who are trying to destroy Her from within.  So, when war breaks out, certain "social norms" are disregarded, for 'life and death' purposes.  What you are proposing is that we are supposed to blindly trust the hierarchy, who is openly trying to destroy the Faith, all in the name of 'catholic standards', none of which the hierarchy supports, believes in or cares about. 

It's like you're arguing we have the obligation to 'respect our father' when he comes home at night drunk, starts beating our mother, but stops to ASK (he did not tell us) us to go get him another bottle of whiskey.  I say, 'we don't have to obey him 1) he didn't command us and 2) circuŠ¼stances dictate we ignore his request'. 

You are arguing that we should "obey" him (even when there's no command) out of "respect" for his authority, even when he's abusing his authority and causing harm?  INSANITY!
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Offline Cantarella

Re: The Heretical Pope Fallacy
« Reply #291 on: January 11, 2018, 01:56:27 PM »
Quote from: Ladislaus on January 11, 2018, 01:09:02 PM
Sorry, Pax, but you keep relying upon the strict limits of infallibility but then have no concept whatsoever regarding the overall indefectibility of the Magisterium.  If an EcuŠ¼enical Council, guided by the Holy Ghost, could produce a body of doctrine so harmful to faith that it forces Catholics to break submission with the hierarchy rather than assent to them, then the Magisterium would have defected.

One of the (accidental) harms that people noticed from the Vatican I definition was precisely this notion of yours that everything which didn't have the notes of infallibility as defined by Vatican I became "take it or leave it" (your words).  This was never taught by Vatican I  but was wrongly inferred by people who think as you do.  That is completely alien to any true sensus Catholicus.

The Catholic Encyclopedia of 1917 gives the following definition of the Church's indefectibility:

Quote
"By this term is signified, not merely that the Church will persist to the end of time, but further, that it will be preserved unimpaired in its essential characteristics. The Church can never undergo any constitutional change, which will make it, as a social organism, something different from what it was originally. It can never become corrupt in faith or in morals; nor can it ever lose the Apostolic hierarchy, or the Sacraments through which Christ communicates grace to men." 

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: The Heretical Pope Fallacy
« Reply #292 on: January 11, 2018, 03:44:19 PM »
Quote from: Pax Vobis on January 11, 2018, 01:25:26 PM
It is also an alien concept that the Church hierarchy is full of people who are trying to destroy Her from within.  So, when war breaks out, certain "social norms" are disregarded, for 'life and death' purposes.  

Nonsense, the guarantee of indefectibility and infallibility is not predicated on the worthiness or good intentions of the hierarchy.  If said hierarchy is legitimate, then the protections related to infallibility and indefectibility still apply, and God will uphold the honor of the Church ... even if it means striking dead an offending prelate about to violate these boundaries.

In fact, that's why I believe the infiltrators installed Roncalli by way of illegitimate election.  They knew that if one who was secretly theirs (and not manifestly heretical) managed to infiltrate and get elected legitimately, God would thwart him from violating infallibility.  That's one of the interesting corollaries of the Bellarmine ipso facto depositus position.  He maintains that a secret heretic, since he's not manifest, remains a member of the Church.  What happens if this evil secret heretic were to set out to deliberately teach erroneous doctrine using the language of solemn definition?  God would prevent this ... because of His guarantees regarding the Church ... if by striking him dead before he can carry out the nefarious activity.
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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: The Heretical Pope Fallacy
« Reply #293 on: January 11, 2018, 03:52:25 PM »
Quote
"By this term is signified, not merely that the Church will persist to the end of time, but further, that it will be preserved unimpaired in its essential characteristics. The Church can never undergo any constitutional change, which will make it, as a social organism, something different from what it was originally. It can never become corrupt in faith or in morals; nor can it ever lose the Apostolic hierarchy, or the Sacraments through which Christ communicates grace to men."

This is a great quote, Cantarella.  On the one side, straight SVism has been accused of violating the principle that the Church cannot "lose the Apostolic hierarchy", while R&Rism of violating the principle that the Church "can never become corrupt in faith or in morals".  Most SVs also state that the Novus Ordo Sacraments are invalid.  That's why I believe that some form of CT would address both these issues.
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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: The Heretical Pope Fallacy
« Reply #294 on: January 11, 2018, 03:55:41 PM »
Quote from: Pax Vobis on January 11, 2018, 01:16:29 PM
What has been established?  What is to be observed?

Religious Liberty, the new ecclesiology, etc. ... all these were established at Vatican II.
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