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Author Topic: The Heretical Pope Fallacy  (Read 44504 times)

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Online Pax Vobis

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Re: The Heretical Pope Fallacy
« Reply #285 on: January 11, 2018, 12:45:33 PM »
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    It is not the precise narrative that makes the decrees binding;
    V1 says you're wrong.

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    it is the papal promulgation of them in a setting of a General Council.
    Yes, if the narrative is precise enough to warrant more than a 'religious assent', which is conditional.

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    Catholics are not supposed to scrutinize every detail of the council docuмents trying to identify what parts are binding and what parts are not.
    We don't have to srutinize every detail because USUALLY council docuмents are quite clear, short and to the point.  It is plainly obvious that a 4th grader, with a general understanding of the english language, can recognize when the Church is teaching authoritatively and when She's not.

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    We are supposed to give religious asent to whatever is proposed in a ecunemical Council ratified by a pope, trusting that it is for our own benefit.
    'Religious assent' is conditional.  It is not blind trust.  

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    You can't pick and choose.
    The catechism is a summary of our Faith; it can be understood by children.  When V2 says something different than the catechism, that should send 'alarm bells' off in our heads.  We have a brain, we have a conscience - we are supposed to USE IT.

    It is not 'picking and choosing' (unless you erroneously think that EVERY sentence in a council is binding, in some generalized, inspecific way) to compare one's catechism to a view that appears new.  You act like the Faith is rocket science.  IT'S ALL THERE IN THE CATECHISM.  It will never change, be added to, or subtracted from.  It's the same as it was in Christ's time.  THERE IS NOTHING NEW IN CATHOLICISM.  So when V2 comes along with something new, and doesn't teach it officially or clearly, the simpliest, most logical answer is that IT'S WRONG because it contradicts the catechism, and something wrong can't come from the Church.

    The answer is not some complex, canon law interpretation, personal authority nonsense, whereby since a council can CREATE and CHANGE Church doctrine, therefore there's not a pope.  That's circular logic.  The simpliest answer is not that Paul VI was not the pope; it is that the council was not an ecuмenical council in the same degree as all previous ones.  This view requires much less canon-law acrobatics, is consistent with V1, and is supported by the council's own docuмents AND all the opinions of the post-V2 hierarchy, who all say that V2 was not binding but only requires 'conditional/religious assent'  (which, by the way, contradicts the assertion that God will not allow the laity to be led into error if they submit to a general council...the magisterium which CREATED the council said it was not binding and must be interpreted according to tradition).  So, again, more contradictions!

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: The Heretical Pope Fallacy
    « Reply #286 on: January 11, 2018, 01:02:58 PM »
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    We decided moreover that all that has been established synodally is to be religiously observed by all the faithful,

    little more needs to be demonstrated


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: The Heretical Pope Fallacy
    « Reply #287 on: January 11, 2018, 01:09:02 PM »
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  • Sorry, Pax, but you keep relying upon the strict limits of infallibility but then have no concept whatsoever regarding the overall indefectibility of the Magisterium.  If an Ecuмenical Council, guided by the Holy Ghost, could produce a body of doctrine so harmful to faith that it forces Catholics to break submission with the hierarchy rather than assent to them, then the Magisterium would have defected.

    One of the (accidental) harms that people noticed from the Vatican I definition was precisely this notion of yours that everything which didn't have the notes of infallibility as defined by Vatican I became "take it or leave it" (your words).  This was never taught by Vatican I  but was wrongly inferred by people who think as you do.  That is completely alien to any true sensus Catholicus.

    Online Pax Vobis

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    Re: The Heretical Pope Fallacy
    « Reply #288 on: January 11, 2018, 01:16:29 PM »
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    We decided moreover that all that has been established

    What has been established?  What is to be observed?

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: The Heretical Pope Fallacy
    « Reply #289 on: January 11, 2018, 01:22:28 PM »
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  • What is a dogmatic Decree?
     
    A dogmatic decree is an ex cathedra definition, it is final. They must be taken literally, unequivocally, and absolutely. Hence, no one need to re-interpret dogma for it is THE final “interpretation”.
     
    All those who are inclined to qualify or interpret dogma should have the good sense to realize that if this is not what the words of the definitions mean, the Church (the Holy Ghost) would never have promulgated such a position. To give any other meaning to these words is to portray the Church as foolish and ridiculous.  
     

    Vatican II is nowhere clear, volumes and volumes of  pages that need interpretation. This by itself should tell anyone with eyes to see, that Vatican II is not of God.


    Online Pax Vobis

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    Re: The Heretical Pope Fallacy
    « Reply #290 on: January 11, 2018, 01:25:26 PM »
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    That is completely alien to any true sensus Catholicus.
    It is also an alien concept that the Church hierarchy is full of people who are trying to destroy Her from within.  So, when war breaks out, certain "social norms" are disregarded, for 'life and death' purposes.  What you are proposing is that we are supposed to blindly trust the hierarchy, who is openly trying to destroy the Faith, all in the name of 'catholic standards', none of which the hierarchy supports, believes in or cares about. 

    It's like you're arguing we have the obligation to 'respect our father' when he comes home at night drunk, starts beating our mother, but stops to ASK (he did not tell us) us to go get him another bottle of whiskey.  I say, 'we don't have to obey him 1) he didn't command us and 2) circuмstances dictate we ignore his request'. 

    You are arguing that we should "obey" him (even when there's no command) out of "respect" for his authority, even when he's abusing his authority and causing harm?  INSANITY!

    Offline Cantarella

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    Re: The Heretical Pope Fallacy
    « Reply #291 on: January 11, 2018, 01:56:27 PM »
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  • Sorry, Pax, but you keep relying upon the strict limits of infallibility but then have no concept whatsoever regarding the overall indefectibility of the Magisterium.  If an Ecuмenical Council, guided by the Holy Ghost, could produce a body of doctrine so harmful to faith that it forces Catholics to break submission with the hierarchy rather than assent to them, then the Magisterium would have defected.

    One of the (accidental) harms that people noticed from the Vatican I definition was precisely this notion of yours that everything which didn't have the notes of infallibility as defined by Vatican I became "take it or leave it" (your words).  This was never taught by Vatican I  but was wrongly inferred by people who think as you do.  That is completely alien to any true sensus Catholicus.

    The Catholic Encyclopedia of 1917 gives the following definition of the Church's indefectibility:

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    "By this term is signified, not merely that the Church will persist to the end of time, but further, that it will be preserved unimpaired in its essential characteristics. The Church can never undergo any constitutional change, which will make it, as a social organism, something different from what it was originally. It can never become corrupt in faith or in morals; nor can it ever lose the Apostolic hierarchy, or the Sacraments through which Christ communicates grace to men." 

    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: The Heretical Pope Fallacy
    « Reply #292 on: January 11, 2018, 03:44:19 PM »
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  • It is also an alien concept that the Church hierarchy is full of people who are trying to destroy Her from within.  So, when war breaks out, certain "social norms" are disregarded, for 'life and death' purposes.  

    Nonsense, the guarantee of indefectibility and infallibility is not predicated on the worthiness or good intentions of the hierarchy.  If said hierarchy is legitimate, then the protections related to infallibility and indefectibility still apply, and God will uphold the honor of the Church ... even if it means striking dead an offending prelate about to violate these boundaries.

    In fact, that's why I believe the infiltrators installed Roncalli by way of illegitimate election.  They knew that if one who was secretly theirs (and not manifestly heretical) managed to infiltrate and get elected legitimately, God would thwart him from violating infallibility.  That's one of the interesting corollaries of the Bellarmine ipso facto depositus position.  He maintains that a secret heretic, since he's not manifest, remains a member of the Church.  What happens if this evil secret heretic were to set out to deliberately teach erroneous doctrine using the language of solemn definition?  God would prevent this ... because of His guarantees regarding the Church ... if by striking him dead before he can carry out the nefarious activity.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: The Heretical Pope Fallacy
    « Reply #293 on: January 11, 2018, 03:52:25 PM »
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    "By this term is signified, not merely that the Church will persist to the end of time, but further, that it will be preserved unimpaired in its essential characteristics. The Church can never undergo any constitutional change, which will make it, as a social organism, something different from what it was originally. It can never become corrupt in faith or in morals; nor can it ever lose the Apostolic hierarchy, or the Sacraments through which Christ communicates grace to men."

    This is a great quote, Cantarella.  On the one side, straight SVism has been accused of violating the principle that the Church cannot "lose the Apostolic hierarchy", while R&Rism of violating the principle that the Church "can never become corrupt in faith or in morals".  Most SVs also state that the Novus Ordo Sacraments are invalid.  That's why I believe that some form of CT would address both these issues.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: The Heretical Pope Fallacy
    « Reply #294 on: January 11, 2018, 03:55:41 PM »
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  • What has been established?  What is to be observed?

    Religious Liberty, the new ecclesiology, etc. ... all these were established at Vatican II.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: The Heretical Pope Fallacy
    « Reply #295 on: January 11, 2018, 03:59:17 PM »
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  • it is that the council was not an ecuмenical council in the same degree as all previous ones

    For the, oh, fifteenth time now, papal approbation defines an Ecuмenical Council.  If Paul VI was a legitimate pope, Vatican II was an Ecuмenical Council in every sense of the word.  That's just nonsense.


    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: The Heretical Pope Fallacy
    « Reply #296 on: January 11, 2018, 04:45:40 PM »
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  • This is garbage and you are making it up. This has no basis in Catholic belief or teaching whatsoever. If Paul VI is Pope, he is infallibly saying that what is contained therein is binding. So there is no teaching in any of the docuмents that may be disputed by the faithful. You have no proof from anything Church related that this is actually something Catholics must abide by. You are making it up as you go along in your attempt to circuмvent Catholic Dogma. This is purely fiction. You are so entrenched in your SSPX/Siscoe etc.. beliefs, that Catholic sense and teaching are foreign to you. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if you are deliberately making all these nonsense distinctions on purpose in order to further keep people in their false view of the Church.
    At this point, this is how I'm leaning.

    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: The Heretical Pope Fallacy
    « Reply #297 on: January 11, 2018, 05:05:12 PM »
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  • V1 says you're wrong.
    Yes, if the narrative is precise enough to warrant more than a 'religious assent', which is conditional.
    We don't have to srutinize every detail because USUALLY council docuмents are quite clear, short and to the point.  It is plainly obvious that a 4th grader, with a general understanding of the english language, can recognize when the Church is teaching authoritatively and when She's not.
    'Religious assent' is conditional.  It is not blind trust.  
    The catechism is a summary of our Faith; it can be understood by children.  When V2 says something different than the catechism, that should send 'alarm bells' off in our heads.  We have a brain, we have a conscience - we are supposed to USE IT.

    It is not 'picking and choosing' (unless you erroneously think that EVERY sentence in a council is binding, in some generalized, inspecific way) to compare one's catechism to a view that appears new.  You act like the Faith is rocket science.  IT'S ALL THERE IN THE CATECHISM.  It will never change, be added to, or subtracted from.  It's the same as it was in Christ's time.  THERE IS NOTHING NEW IN CATHOLICISM.  So when V2 comes along with something new, and doesn't teach it officially or clearly, the simpliest, most logical answer is that IT'S WRONG because it contradicts the catechism, and something wrong can't come from the Church.

    The answer is not some complex, canon law interpretation, personal authority nonsense, whereby since a council can CREATE and CHANGE Church doctrine, therefore there's not a pope.  That's circular logic.  The simplest answer is not that Paul VI was not the pope; it is that the council was not an ecuмenical council in the same degree as all previous ones.  This view requires much less canon-law acrobatics, is consistent with V1, and is supported by the council's own docuмents AND all the opinions of the post-V2 hierarchy, who all say that V2 was not binding but only requires 'conditional/religious assent'  (which, by the way, contradicts the assertion that God will not allow the laity to be led into error if they submit to a general council...the magisterium which CREATED the council said it was not binding and must be interpreted according to tradition).  So, again, more contradictions!
    .
    How does anyone know what the "degree" of a council is? 
    .
    It's either a council or it isn't. And if Vat.II was not a council, that's not a matter for laymen to determine.
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    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: The Heretical Pope Fallacy
    « Reply #298 on: January 11, 2018, 05:27:26 PM »
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  • .

    Quote
    Quote
    Furthermore, the CE explains that in respect of the general legislative acts of the pope there is never doubt as to the universal extent of the obligation;
    .

    Correct, except V2 did not have any legislative acts!  St Thomas defines a law as:
    1. a certain dictate of reason
    2. for the common good,
    3. made by him who has the care of the community
    4. and promulgated publicly.

    V2 fulfils 2, 3 and 4 but not 1.  "Dictate" means 'an order or principle that must be obeyed'.  V2 never authoritatively tells any catholic they MUST believe x.  It never uses the words like "shall" or "must" or "we command" or "we order", etc.  These phrases are a BASIC part of law and if they are not there, then there is no obligation, even if the law is valid.

    Example:  Your parents have a rule in the house - "Bedtime may begin after dark and usually before midnight."  Ok, so what's the obligation?  There is none.  It's a guideline.  Does it say "shall be before midnight"?  No, so it's negotiable.  Does it say there's a penalty for going to bed before dark?  No, there's no penalty.  It's a passive, indirect, and subjective law.  V2 is filled with this type of language, which is not exact, and therefore, we are obligated to nothing.
    .
    It seems to me that Vat.II fails 1, 2 and 4, not just 1.
    .
    It fails 4 because a council and the governance of the Church is a very specific and precise thing, but Vat.II was never specifically and precisely promulgated. Instead, what we got was the FAKE IMITATION of promulgation, followed by the iron fist of Paul VI demanding obedience of bishops and priests and all religious, after which the faithful fell in line mostly, because they were trying to be obedient.
    .
    And it fails 2 because while it was promoted as being for the common good, that was a FAKE attribute, since Vat.II deviates from the longstanding traditions of the Church and from Church teachings.
    .
    Finally, it fails 1 because as you say, it did not authoritatively demand the religious faith of Catholics, EVEN THOUGH IT SEEMED TO SAY IT DID. Sedes like to trot out the decree of Paul VI containing those words, but the Catholic way of demanding the religious assent of faith is dogmatic definition, of which Vat.II contained nothing. From the start it was only a "pastoral" council. Go back and check, there had never before been a "pastoral council" in the Church's history, so this was a first. 
    .
    It's going to take a new Council to declare Vat.II "different" from the previous 19, and therefore abrogated.
    .
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    Offline Clemens Maria

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    Re: The Heretical Pope Fallacy
    « Reply #299 on: January 11, 2018, 08:43:21 PM »
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  • This is a great quote, Cantarella.  On the one side, straight SVism has been accused of violating the principle that the Church cannot "lose the Apostolic hierarchy", while R&Rism of violating the principle that the Church "can never become corrupt in faith or in morals".  Most SVs also state that the Novus Ordo Sacraments are invalid.  That's why I believe that some form of CT would address both these issues.
    The Apostolic hierarchy consists of all Catholic clergy (all who have been received into and have remained in the clerical state and remain in communion with the pope).  So as long as there is at least one Catholic bishop, the hierarchy has not defected.  No SV that I know of would claim that there are no Catholic bishops in existence.  On the other hand there are a lot of traditionalists who think there must be at least one ordinary in existence at all times.  Aside from the fact that it is not proven that this belief is true, it has not yet been proven that there isn’t a Catholic ordinary somewhere.  So straight SVism is certainly a tenable position.