Author Topic: The Crisis in the Church is a supernatural mystery (Read 6952 times)

Matthew · « **on:** August 29, 2019, 08:12:03 AM »

The Pope question is neither here nor there unless you're a Bishop, cleric or have a special calling. For all of us laymen (which is the majority of CathInfo) we just have to keep the Faith and be Traditional Catholics, completely rejecting Vatican II and its de-facto new religion. Do this, and we have a chance of saving our souls. Do it not, and our souls have a 100X greater chance of losing the Faith and being lost.

The Pope question is a complete red herring for Traditional Catholics. We have much bigger fish to fry, as demonstrated and discussed in the "Catholics Living in the Modern World" thread about daughters being worldly and boy-crazy. SSPX and other Trad Catholics are losing their sons and daughters to the World and to satan -- but they don't care, as long as they think they have the Pope question figured out! Madness!

I've pointed out many times that Sedevacantism offers zero practical benefit over and above the immense benefits of the Traditional Movement itself. Now whether it causes any harm seems to be open for debate.

I personally go so far as to say that the exact nature of the Crisis in the Church is a bona fide supernatural mystery, one that literally can't be known, achieved or grasped by human reason alone, without the aid of Divine Revelation -- and God hasn't revealed it yet! That is to say, if all the best minds and theologians in Tradition got together for a 1-month conference, they wouldn't be able to figure out the Crisis in the Church, unless God joined their little conference.

This is my perspective, as one who has been in the actual Traditional movement for over 4 decades.

Unless men can figure out the mind and plans of God "by human reason alone", the Crisis in the Church is a nut that will never be cracked by human power.

Matthew · « **Reply #1 on:** August 29, 2019, 08:18:16 AM »

It is a FACT that we Traditional Catholics only have so many hours in the day, and much of that is spent by the time we wake up in the morning: duties of state, work, personal care, maintenance, you name it.

How many hours a week does the average Trad have, to study, pray, and think about things? Do we really have the leisure to muse about academic questions like the status of the Pope, when there are SO MANY more pressing, practical matters that need our immediate attention!

Do you think God wants you, the head of a family, to worry more about raising your children Catholic, or does He expect you to figure out the Crisis in the Church and the Pope question with 100% certainty and clarity?

I think it's obvious that God only expects MORAL certainty, enough to act on (enough to become a Traditional Catholic) and to spend more time sanctifying ourselves and our families, and spending time and love on our children, so they will be less likely to stray later.

If I were the devil, you know what I'd do? I'd trick Trads into wasting time spinning their wheels on the Pope question, so I can get their ill-prepared and relatively neglected children. Diabolically clever!

Ooops... you know what? I bet that's exactly what the devil thought! He's been doing that for years.

Trads aren't going to be tempted by ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity, becoming a transsɛҳuąƖ, etc. The ways the devil gets a Leftist, the ways he gets a Novus Ordo Catholic, and the ways he gets a Trad are CERTAINLY going to be completely different. It's common sense! The devil isn't some 80 IQ moron who uses the same tactics on everybody. Unlike Leftists, the devil knows and accepts the truth that there are vast differences in men -- different temperaments, different cultures/races, differences in male/female brains and psychology, differences in upbringing, individual strengths/weaknesses, etc. AND THE DEVIL USES EVERY LAST BIT OF THIS KNOWLEDGE when trying to tempt or misdirect a soul.

Clemens Maria · « **Reply #2 on:** August 29, 2019, 08:41:44 AM »

Is it really that much of a mystery? I think every traditional Catholic understands the problem is with the pope. So what’s wrong with the pope? Easy, we don’t have one. It’s not rocket science.

forlorn · « **Reply #3 on:** August 29, 2019, 09:23:17 AM »

Quote from: Clemens Maria on August 29, 2019, 08:41:44 AM

Is it really that much of a mystery? I think every traditional Catholic understands the problem is with the pope. So what’s wrong with the pope? Easy, we don’t have one. It’s not rocket science.

The issue is 60 year sedevacantism means that we now have no hierarchy, which cannot be.

Yet an occupied See means that we have a pope teaching heresy and celebrating a false mass, and that 99% of valid Catholics masses celebrated around the world are invalid and blasphemous. On top of that, many sedeplenist Trads also believe the new rite of ordination is doubtful - so they don't even know if the pope is a real priest! None of those things can possibly be either - Catholic masses cannot be blasphemous, the Church certainly cannot promulgate a false rite, a false rite of ordination would mean Francis isn't even pope, and a false rite of ordination would mean that in 50 or so years we'd have no hierarchy - so the exact same problem as sedevacantism, only delayed, along with all the other issues of the mass.

So there really isn't any position that fully explains everything or doesn't have huge problems of its own.

Stubborn · « **Reply #4 on:** August 29, 2019, 10:15:13 AM »

Matthew is spot on. The main (not the only) thing sedeism has actually accomplished and only can accomplish as it's end goal, is cause division among many of the very few faithful that are left. "Divide and conquer" is a most effective tool of the devil and in this matter, we see how this tool has been utilized, in real time and with our own eyes. If it has some other goal, do tell.

Personally, I hold that in part, that at the root of this mess, the sede issue falls on: 1) certain (not all) well respected 19th/20th theologians who are responsible for their ambiguous or wrong ideas or opinions as regards the Church's infallibility, which ideas were published and 2) taught in all Catholic places of learning and 3) accepted as if de fide teachings of the Church by nearly everyone.

In the words of the good Archbishop Lefebvre:

"Infallibility is extremely limited, only bearing on very specific cases which Vatican I has very well defined and detailed. It is not possible to say that whenever the pope speaks he is infallible. The fact is that the pope is a liberal, that all this liberal trend has taken place at the Council of Vatican II, and created a direction for the destruction of the church - a destruction which one expects to happen any day.....After all of these liberal ideas have been infiltrated into the seminaries, the catechisms and all the manifestations of the church, I am now being asked to align myself with these liberal ideas. Because I have not aligned myself with these liberal ideas that would destroy the church, there are attempts to suppress my seminaries. And it is for this reason that I am asked to stop ordaining priests..."

Alan · « **Reply #5 on:** August 29, 2019, 10:21:16 AM »

Quote from: Matthew on August 29, 2019, 08:12:03 AM

The Pope question is neither here nor there unless you're a Bishop, cleric or have a special calling. For all of us laymen (which is the majority of CathInfo) we just have to keep the Faith and be Traditional Catholics, completely rejecting Vatican II and its de-facto new religion. Do this, and we have a chance of saving our souls. Do it not, and our souls have a 100X greater chance of losing the Faith and being lost.

The Pope question is a complete red herring for Traditional Catholics. We have much bigger fish to fry, as demonstrated and discussed in the "Catholics Living in the Modern World" thread about daughters being worldly and boy-crazy. SSPX and other Trad Catholics are losing their sons and daughters to the World and to satan -- but they don't care, as long as they think they have the Pope question figured out! Madness!

I've pointed out many times that Sedevacantism offers zero practical benefit over and above the immense benefits of the Traditional Movement itself. Now whether it causes any harm seems to be open for debate.

I personally go so far as to say that the exact nature of the Crisis in the Church is a bona fide supernatural mystery, one that literally can't be known, achieved or grasped by human reason alone, without the aid of Divine Revelation -- and God hasn't revealed it yet! That is to say, if all the best minds and theologians in Tradition got together for a 1-month conference, they wouldn't be able to figure out the Crisis in the Church, unless God joined their little conference.

This is my perspective, as one who has been in the actual Traditional movement for over 4 decades.

Unless men can figure out the mind and plans of God "by human reason alone", the Crisis in the Church is a nut that will never be cracked by human power.

Why is it a mystery??
To me, it's not a mystery because it has been discussed and analyzed by several book authors. The latest book was out within 2 months ago.

forlorn · « **Reply #6 on:** August 29, 2019, 10:25:09 AM »

Quote from: Stubborn on August 29, 2019, 10:15:13 AM

Matthew is spot on. The main (not the only) thing sedeism has actually accomplished and only can accomplish as it's end goal, is cause division among many of the very few faithful that are left. "Divide and conquer" is a most effective tool of the devil and in this matter, we see how this tool has been utilized, in real time and with our own eyes. If it has some other goal, do tell.

Personally, I hold that in part, that at the root of this mess, the sede issue falls on: 1) certain (not all) well respected 19th/20th theologians who are responsible for their ambiguous or wrong ideas or opinions as regards the Church's infallibility, which ideas were published and 2) taught in all Catholic places of learning and 3) accepted as if de fide teachings of the Church by nearly everyone.

In the words of the good Archbishop Lefebvre:

"Infallibility is extremely limited, only bearing on very specific cases which Vatican I has very well defined and detailed. It is not possible to say that whenever the pope speaks he is infallible. The fact is that the pope is a liberal, that all this liberal trend has taken place at the Council of Vatican II, and created a direction for the destruction of the church - a destruction which one expects to happen any day.....After all of these liberal ideas have been infiltrated into the seminaries, the catechisms and all the manifestations of the church, I am now being asked to align myself with these liberal ideas. Because I have not aligned myself with these liberal ideas that would destroy the church, there are attempts to suppress my seminaries. And it is for this reason that I am asked to stop ordaining priests..."

And you don't see the hypocrisy in not trusting that NO priests are real priests, yet trusting that the pope(who was ordained in the new rite) is a real pope?

forlorn · « **Reply #7 on:** August 29, 2019, 10:25:51 AM »

Quote from: Alan on August 29, 2019, 10:21:16 AM

Why is it a mystery??
To me, it's not a mystery because it has been discussed and analyzed by several book authors. The latest book was out within 2 months ago.

"Books" is very vague. Which books, what position do they espouse, and how do they prove it?

Mr G · « **Reply #8 on:** August 29, 2019, 10:26:26 AM »

Whether we have a Pope and we ignore him, follow him, resist him or claim he is not the Pope, or pick our own Pope; the problem still remains: the guy in the white cassock sitting in the Vatican spewing out heresies and promoting all the Communist's agendas is claimed to be the Pope by the vast majority of all baptized Catholics and by the vast majority of all those claiming to be the Catholic Chur's Hierarchy.

So if Trads are going to debate each other, they should be productive and debate what is the best way to make the guy in the white cassock to stop destroying the church and make VII and the Novus Ordo go away. Then once a plan is agreed, carry it out. If that can be done among the Trads, then I would support that effort, but if not then you are better off taking Matthew's advice "spend more time sanctifying ourselves and our families, and spending time and love on our children, so they will be less likely to stray later." At least that we can have an impact.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #9 on:** August 29, 2019, 10:36:51 AM »

#1) I wouldn't use the term "supernatural". I think it's knowable from reason. Supernatural, in the strict sense, refers to the inner life of the Holy Trinity which cannot be known with reason. It is certainly, however, a mystery in the sense that we have not been able to fully grasp what has been doing on. God has not revealed the precise (albeit very natural) details of what's happened to the Church. Yeah, I know, I'm being a bit too pedantic here.

#2) I understand what you're saying, but the Pope and the papacy is important. It IS important ... and it isn't. And you're referring to this second aspect of it's not being important.

So how is it important and how is it not?

It is absolutely essential for understanding whether we should be Traditional Catholics in the first place. Depending on how we view the authority of the papacy, we may or may not be justified in rejecting Vatican II, the New Mass ... and effectively refusing communion with the hierarchy. So it's all in reference to the papacy that people determine their response to the crisis: conservative Novus Ordo, flee to the Eastern Rite, be a Motarian or FSSP type, become standard R&R, sede-doubtist, sedeprivationist, or dogmatic sedevacantist.

NOW ... once you have determined in conscience to become a Traditional Catholic, you're absolutely right that it has no bearing whatsoever on our sanctification, on how we live our day to day lives.

Archbishop Lefebvre:

Quote

“Now some priests (even some priests in the Society) say that we Catholics need not worry about what is happening in the Vatican; we have the true sacraments, the true Mass, the true doctrine, so why worry about whether the pope is heretic or an impostor or whatever; it is of no importance to us. But I think that is not true. If any man is important in the Church it is the pope.” (Talk, March 30 and April 18, 1986, text published in The Angelus, July 1986)

Ladislaus · « **Reply #10 on:** August 29, 2019, 10:38:34 AM »

Quote from: Mr G on August 29, 2019, 10:26:26 AM

So if Trads are going to debate each other, they should be productive and debate what is the best way to make the guy in the white cassock to stop destroying the church and make VII and the Novus Ordo go away. Then once a plan is agreed, carry it out.

Trads will never agree. God will have to solve it His own way. While one group of Trads is preparing the conclave to elect Pope Michael II, another group is actively working with Rome to get regularized.

Stubborn · « **Reply #11 on:** August 29, 2019, 10:51:10 AM »

Quote from: forlorn on August 29, 2019, 10:25:09 AM

And you don't see the hypocrisy in not trusting that NO priests are real priests, yet trusting that the pope(who was ordained in the new rite) is a real pope?

To me, it does not matter one way or the other unless he ever commands us to do something, but the pope was elected using the only method there is to elect a pope, this makes his election legitimate, hence the true pope. It cannot be proven otherwise and one way or the other there is absolutely nothing anyone can do about it, so we need not be much concerned about it.

NO clergy, whether legitimate or illegitimate does not matter to me either, but because of the ad libbing that happens since V2, to me they are doubtful, but to the Church, the owner of the sacraments, they are presumed valid unless proven invalid. Either way, faithful trads who will only ever use trad priests need not be much concerned about it.

Stubborn · « **Reply #12 on:** August 29, 2019, 11:06:47 AM »

Quote from: Mr G on August 29, 2019, 10:26:26 AM

Whether we have a Pope and we ignore him, follow him, resist him or claim he is not the Pope, or pick our own Pope; the problem still remains: the guy in the white cassock sitting in the Vatican spewing out heresies and promoting all the Communist's agendas is claimed to be the Pope by the vast majority of all baptized Catholics and by the vast majority of all those claiming to be the Catholic Chur's Hierarchy.

So if Trads are going to debate each other, they should be productive and debate what is the best way to make the guy in the white cassock to stop destroying the church and make VII and the Novus Ordo go away. Then once a plan is agreed, carry it out. If that can be done among the Trads, then I would support that effort, but if not then you are better off taking Matthew's advice "spend more time sanctifying ourselves and our families, and spending time and love on our children, so they will be less likely to stray later." At least that we can have an impact.

I just listened to another very good sermon from Fr. Wathen where he likened the Church of today to the little boat in the storm at sea.

The Apostles, who were veteran fishermen, were so terrified at the ferociousness of the storm and the waves that they thought they were going to drown. The whole time (while He was sound asleep, on a pillow) God was in complete control of that little boat as it rocked and sailed down into the trough of one wave and up to the peak of the next again and again, they thought that little boat was ready to break apart at any moment. The reason God did this was to test their faith.

That boat represents the Church today, and same as during that storm, God is in complete and total control over the Church. To do our part, we are expected to keep the faith through this storm, trusting that nothing will over come God. No matter how bad the pope is or how many bad popes there are, nothing will overcome God, nothing will ever destroy the Church. We must past this test of faith, we must have great faith, regardless of the status of the pope.

Mithrandylan · « **Reply #13 on:** August 29, 2019, 11:20:58 AM »

I think it's a natural mystery. I think it will be something we will eventually all perfectly understand, unlike (say) the Trinity or the hypostatic union. Even if it is not revealed to us until after death. Divine revelation is closed, has been since St. John died. There's nothing new under the sun.

forlorn · « **Reply #14 on:** August 29, 2019, 11:37:07 AM »

Quote from: Stubborn on August 29, 2019, 10:51:10 AM

To me, it does not matter one way or the other unless he ever commands us to do something, but the pope was elected using the only method there is to elect a pope, this makes his election legitimate, hence the true pope. It cannot be proven otherwise and one way or the other there is absolutely nothing anyone can do about it, so we need not be much concerned about it.

NO clergy, whether legitimate or illegitimate does not matter to me either, but because of the ad libbing that happens since V2, to me they are doubtful, but to the Church, the owner of the sacraments, they are presumed valid unless proven invalid. Either way, faithful trads who will only ever use trad priests need not be much concerned about it.

See, I understand the logic of "I'll give the pope the benefit of the doubt, but I want to be careful about my Sacraments so I'll go to traditional priests", but then why is the SSPX coming into a closer relationship with Rome such a bad thing? As long as the SSPX continues with the traditional rites of ordination and mass, and doesn't embrace the modernist heresies abundant in Rome, then I fail to see how coming into a more regular status in the Church is a bad thing. It would just protect the SSPX from accusations of schism and make it easier for the traditional mass to grow within the Church.

Author Topic: The Crisis in the Church is a supernatural mystery (Read 6952 times)

Matthew

The Crisis in the Church is a supernatural mystery

Matthew

Re: The Crisis in the Church is a supernatural mystery

Clemens Maria

Re: The Crisis in the Church is a supernatural mystery

forlorn

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Stubborn

Re: The Crisis in the Church is a supernatural mystery

Alan

Re: The Crisis in the Church is a supernatural mystery

forlorn

Re: The Crisis in the Church is a supernatural mystery

forlorn

Re: The Crisis in the Church is a supernatural mystery

Mr G

Re: The Crisis in the Church is a supernatural mystery

Ladislaus

Re: The Crisis in the Church is a supernatural mystery

Ladislaus

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Stubborn

Re: The Crisis in the Church is a supernatural mystery

Stubborn

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Mithrandylan

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forlorn

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