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Author Topic: The Attack on Ultramontanism  (Read 3557 times)

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Offline Stubborn

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Re: The Attack on Ultramontanism
« Reply #30 on: August 04, 2021, 11:24:49 AM »
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  • It isn't even about any individual pope; it is about a counterfeit church created via V2.
    I agree, yet somehow, "the pope" always manages to work it's way in there.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    Re: The Attack on Ultramontanism
    « Reply #31 on: August 04, 2021, 11:27:39 AM »
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  • Do you think if sedes would actually answer questions honestly, or at least give actual answers at all, that we'd all have a true grasp of what they actually think, vs the impression their attitude leaves us to think?

    This forum is FULL of clear, oft-lengthy, honest answers and commentary from SVs (and it is but one source of many).  You may not like or agree with or understand said comments/answers, but that is an entirely separate matter.  Good day :)
    "Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is all man."


    Offline Marion

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    Re: The Attack on Ultramontanism
    « Reply #32 on: August 04, 2021, 11:30:09 AM »
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  • Do you agree that the Church and Christ are one? That the Church is Christ?

    If so, what's the point of being even the least bit concerned about the Church's indefectibility?

    The Father and Christ are one. The Church and Christ are not one.

    Christ is Christ. The Church is the Church. Christ is not the Church. The Church is not Christ.

    The Church is in a mysterious way the Body of Christ, not actually, not literally but in a figurative sense.

    That meaning of the sacred dogmas is ever to be maintained which has once been declared by holy mother church. (Dei Filius)

    Offline Marion

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    Re: The Attack on Ultramontanism
    « Reply #33 on: August 04, 2021, 11:47:44 AM »
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  • Stubborn, don't ask sedevacantists, ask the infallible and extraordinary magisterium of the Church of Our Lord:

    Quote from: Vatican Council, Pastor aeternus
    Wherefore we teach and declare that, by divine ordinance, the Roman church possesses a pre-eminence of ordinary power over every other church, and that this jurisdictional power of the Roman pontiff is both episcopal and immediate.

    Both clergy and faithful, of whatever rite and dignity, both singly and collectively, are bound to submit to this power by the duty of hierarchical subordination and true obedience, and this not only in matters concerning faith and morals, but also in those which regard the discipline and government of the church throughout the world.
    https://www.papalencyclicals.net/councils/ecuм20.htm

    We are "bound to submit to" the Roman pontiff "by the duty of hierarchical subordination and true obedience, and this not only in matters concerning faith and morals, but also in those which regard the discipline and government of the church throughout the world."
    That meaning of the sacred dogmas is ever to be maintained which has once been declared by holy mother church. (Dei Filius)

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: The Attack on Ultramontanism
    « Reply #34 on: August 04, 2021, 11:49:05 AM »
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  • This forum is FULL of clear, oft-lengthy, honest answers and commentary from SVs (and it is but one source of many).  You may not like or agree with or understand said comments/answers, but that is an entirely separate matter.  Good day :)
    No way GV, in many other threads, one recent, I could not get even one of the sedes to answer. I got everything but answers, same o same o. Check DL's post in this thread, it's is a case in point, it's typical. Ask a question having nothing to do with popes, get a reply whose main context is about the pope.
       
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: The Attack on Ultramontanism
    « Reply #35 on: August 04, 2021, 12:05:52 PM »
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  • Stubborn, don't ask sedevacantists, ask the infallible and extraordinary magisterium of the Church of Our Lord:
    https://www.papalencyclicals.net/councils/ecuм20.htm

    We are "bound to submit to" the Roman pontiff "by the duty of hierarchical subordination and true obedience, and this not only in matters concerning faith and morals, but also in those which regard the discipline and government of the church throughout the world."
    Note that V1 states we owe the pope *true obedience*, yet this is impossible unless we always maintain the highest of all principles in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man". Leaving it at that, we come to a full stop, period. Sedes cannot stop there, they have some need to insist popes are not popes, as if that opinion is their religious obligation.

    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Marion

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    Re: The Attack on Ultramontanism
    « Reply #36 on: August 04, 2021, 12:11:20 PM »
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  • Note that V1 states we owe the pope *true obedience*, yet this is impossible unless we always maintain the highest of all principles in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man". Leaving it at that, we come to a full stop, period. Sedes cannot stop there, they have some need to insist popes are not popes, as if that opinion is their religious obligation.

    One arrives at a contradiction, if it is not possible to obey God and the Pope at the same time. Consequently, there is some error in the assumptions. One possibility: the Pope is not the Pope.

    Do you know of any other possibility?
    That meaning of the sacred dogmas is ever to be maintained which has once been declared by holy mother church. (Dei Filius)

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: The Attack on Ultramontanism
    « Reply #37 on: August 04, 2021, 12:16:41 PM »
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  • The Father and Christ are one. The Church and Christ are not one.

    Christ is Christ. The Church is the Church. Christ is not the Church. The Church is not Christ.

    The Church is in a mysterious way the Body of Christ, not actually, not literally but in a figurative sense.
    Sorry but Christ and the Church are one and the same. So says St. Paul, many popes and saints etc,. You can look it up if you want. To say otherwise is to admit that Christ is not the Head of the Church. The Church is Christ's Mystical Body (head included) of which we (Catholics) are members. We are not the body of Christ, we are members of His Body (head included). Christ and the Church are one.

    No one can believe in Christ, and at the same time not believe in His Church. As Pope Pius XII said referencing St. Paul, Christ and the Church are one: "The doctrine of the Mystical Body of Christ, which is the Church, was first taught us by the Redeemer Himself" and this has been repeated throughout many papal teachings, St. Augustine also taught that you can never separate Christ from the Church because the two are one.

    At any rate, you can investigate on your own, the bottom line is, the indefectibility of the Church is not our concern, it is our foundation.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Marion

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    Re: The Attack on Ultramontanism
    « Reply #38 on: August 04, 2021, 12:29:21 PM »
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  • Sorry but Christ and the Church are one and the same. So says St. Paul, many popes and saints etc,. You can look it up if you want. To say otherwise is to admit that Christ is not the Head of the Church. The Church is Christ's Mystical Body (head included) of which we (Catholics) are members. We are not the body of Christ, we are members of His Body (head included). Christ and the Church are one.

    That's pure nonsens!

    1.) Please, go ahead and quote the Apostle and some Popes and Saints!
    2.) Being the head of the something surely isn't the same as being that something.
    3.) The Church is not "Christ's Mystical Body (head included)", but rather head not included

    :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm:
    That meaning of the sacred dogmas is ever to be maintained which has once been declared by holy mother church. (Dei Filius)

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: The Attack on Ultramontanism
    « Reply #39 on: August 04, 2021, 12:40:12 PM »
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  • One arrives at a contradiction, if it is not possible to obey God and the Pope at the same time. Consequently, there is some error in the assumptions. One possibility: the Pope is not the Pope.

    Do you know of any other possibility?
    Yes, the popes have corrupted themselves, became modernist heretics and have lost the faith, while at the same time believing they're under the Holy Ghost's protection so whatever they teach can never harm the faithful or the Church, and they are always infallibly safe to follow.

    I know, I know - Enter V1's teaching that quotes Our Lord praying that St. Peter not lose the faith....this divine revelation from Our Lord has not been in any way compromised or otherwise infringed upon, because it is a revelation from Our Lord Himself.     this is because Our Lord was referring to when the pope engages his papal infallibility. I cannot remember which if the Fathers taught this, but will look it up when I get the chance, or you can when you get the chance.  

    At any rate, as regards the Church's infallibility and indefectibility, words of wisdom.....
    "If these two Doctrines be true, then whatever the popes have said or done, whatever they ever say or do, will not be a violation of the Church' s attribute of infallibility. And no matter what anyone does, whether from within or without, he will not succeed in destroying the Church. The enemies of Christ's Church do not believe this, which explains why they will never cease to try". - Fr. Wathen, Who Shall Ascend?
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Marion

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    Re: The Attack on Ultramontanism
    « Reply #40 on: August 04, 2021, 12:49:03 PM »
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  • Yes, the popes have corrupted themselves, became modernist heretics and have lost the faith, while at the same time believing they're under the Holy Ghost's protection so whatever they teach can never harm the faithful or the Church, and they are always infallibly safe to follow.

    I know, I know - Enter V1's teaching that quotes Our Lord praying that St. Peter not lose the faith....this divine revelation from Our Lord has not been in any way compromised or otherwise infringed upon, because it is a revelation from Our Lord Himself.     this is because Our Lord was referring to when the pope engages his papal infallibility. I cannot remember which if the Fathers taught this, but will look it up when I get the chance, or you can when you get the chance.  

    At any rate, as regards the Church's infallibility and indefectibility, words of wisdom.....
    "If these two Doctrines be true, then whatever the popes have said or done, whatever they ever say or do, will not be a violation of the Church' s attribute of infallibility. And no matter what anyone does, whether from within or without, he will not succeed in destroying the Church. The enemies of Christ's Church do not believe this, which explains why they will never cease to try". - Fr. Wathen, Who Shall Ascend?

    I'm not able to follow your reasoning.

    I must somehow obey Our Lord first. To find out how to do that, I primarily use infallible teaching of the Church. E.g. the Vatican Council. I don't believe that there can be any contradiction between the Vatican Council and my duty to obey God first. Hence, it must be possible to obey God and obey any legitimate Pope at the same time.
    That meaning of the sacred dogmas is ever to be maintained which has once been declared by holy mother church. (Dei Filius)


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: The Attack on Ultramontanism
    « Reply #41 on: August 04, 2021, 12:52:20 PM »
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  • That's pure nonsens!

    1.) Please, go ahead and quote the Apostle and some Popes and Saints!
    2.) Being the head of the something surely isn't the same as being that something.
    3.) The Church is not "Christ's Mystical Body (head included)", but rather head not included

    :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm:
    Nonsense? It is a doctrine of the Church, as I already quoted PPXII saying: "The doctrine of the Mystical Body of Christ, which is the Church, was first taught us by the Redeemer Himself" - he was a true pope no?

    There are plenty of other authoritative sources as well. Look it up.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Marion

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    Re: The Attack on Ultramontanism
    « Reply #42 on: August 04, 2021, 12:59:00 PM »
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  • Nonsense? It is a doctrine of the Church, as I already quoted PPXII saying: "The doctrine of the Mystical Body of Christ, which is the Church, was first taught us by the Redeemer Himself" - he was a true pope no?

    There are plenty of other authoritative sources as well. Look it up.

    Look at the whole text, Pius XII does not say "Christ, which is the Church", but "the Mystical Body of Christ, which is the Church". The text of the encyclical explains it: Christ is the Head, while the Church is the Body.

    That meaning of the sacred dogmas is ever to be maintained which has once been declared by holy mother church. (Dei Filius)

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: The Attack on Ultramontanism
    « Reply #43 on: August 04, 2021, 01:06:44 PM »
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  • I'm not able to follow your reasoning.

    I must somehow obey Our Lord first. To find out how to do that, I primarily use infallible teaching of the Church. E.g. the Vatican Council. I don't believe that there can be any contradiction between the Vatican Council and my duty to obey God first. Hence, it must be possible to obey God and obey any legitimate Pope at the same time.
    There is no contradiction. All of the Church's teachings are infallible whether binding or not, whether defined ex cathedra or not. This is true because Christ is the Church, hence all teachings taught by the Church cannot be anything but truth, which is to say that truth is always infallible. The pope is not the Church, Christ is the Church. The pope is only a man, and outside of when he speaks ex cathedra, can teach errors and all manner or heresy as we've seen since V2 and even before.

    When the conciliar popes want us to do or believe heresies or anything that offends God, we cannot accept those teachings because if we do, we offend God. In order to not offend God in this mess, we are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Marion

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    Re: The Attack on Ultramontanism
    « Reply #44 on: August 04, 2021, 01:09:45 PM »
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  • There is no contradiction. All of the Church's teachings are infallible whether binding or not, whether defined ex cathedra or not. This is true because Christ is the Church, hence all teachings taught by the Church cannot be anything but truth, which is to say that truth is always infallible. The pope is not the Church, Christ is the Church. The pope is only a man, and outside of when he speaks ex cathedra, can teach errors and all manner or heresy as we've seen since V2 and even before.

    When the conciliar popes want us to do or believe heresies or anything that offends God, we cannot accept those teachings because if we do, we offend God. In order to not offend God in this mess, we are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man.

    You write as if you had forgotten all we've been talking about in the past hours. Wasting our time.
    That meaning of the sacred dogmas is ever to be maintained which has once been declared by holy mother church. (Dei Filius)