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Author Topic: The Attack on Ultramontanism  (Read 3799 times)

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Offline Meg

Re: The Attack on Ultramontanism
« Reply #10 on: August 04, 2021, 01:23:04 AM »
Quote from: Matto on August 03, 2021, 05:43:39 PM
Sedes seem to argue that we should not think and merely mindlessly follow whatever comes from the Pope. Of course they do not do that. They judge what comes just as R&R do. With the R&R saying the pope is mistaken and the sedes the pope is not the Pope. But the judgment is the same. Neither look to the papacy the way that the sedes demand the R&R do. For in that case, when the Popes started declaring that black was white and white was black in the sixties, the sedes would have conformed their judgment to Rome no matter what, as Saint Ignatius said the Jesuits should, and believe white is black and black is white, rather than thinking for themselves. For even if the pope was false, the lack of trust according to the sede model condemns them. What is the meaning of gaslighting? I want to use that word here but am not sure if it is proper.

Just a question. How can one trust the Pope absolutely as the sedes demand? If at any time the Pope could teach heresy and fall from his state unknown to all? So you can never know if the pope is real and his teaching is true, or if he is false and is teaching lies? The sedes even reject the Papacy of John XXIII who was accepted by the whole world and all Catholics and there weren't even traditional Catholics for six or seven years after he died, let alone sedevacantists. It would make sense to follow blindly if we knew that what happened today is impossible because God would not allow it. But it happened so that model is dead. I mean if a true Pope were elected tomorrow and was accepted by the sedes and he declared BOD was a heresy, they would reject the Pope again and declare a sede vacante again.

Well said.

And to me, that's why I now believe that why Sedeism tends toward evil. The sedes and sedewhatevers will never themselves do what they, in their severeness and excessiveness, hold R&R to. They absolutely demand a standard from R&R that they will never themselves adhere to, and cannot adhere to. And they want everyone else to be the same way, but some of us still want to be honest, and will not go down the road of treachery which is Sedeism. 
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Offline Stubborn

  • Supporter
Re: The Attack on Ultramontanism
« Reply #11 on: August 04, 2021, 07:05:48 AM »
Quote from: Hermes on August 03, 2021, 04:49:12 PM
If Christians could determine for themselves what Tradition is, its sources of extraction, how it is to be interpreted, when it is applied, how it ought to be formulated, and when it should be followed then what use is the Papacy? Eastern Orthodoxy would make more sense under this system.
Catholic traditions, like the faith, have been well established over the life of the Church to the point that for the most part, these things only need to be handed down and reinforced so that children are raised in the faith and traditions of the Church. This means that as children, we learn our religion from our parents, catechisms, sermons, Catholic school and so on - the pope is not in this picture. Any questions were asked to parents or other Catholics, then to parish priests, not the pope.

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Offline DigitalLogos

Re: The Attack on Ultramontanism
« Reply #12 on: August 04, 2021, 08:18:59 AM »
Quote from: Meg on August 04, 2021, 01:23:04 AM
Well said.

And to me, that's why I now believe that why Sedeism tends toward evil. The sedes and sedewhatevers will never themselves do what they, in their severeness and excessiveness, hold R&R to. They absolutely demand a standard from R&R that they will never themselves adhere to, and cannot adhere to. And they want everyone else to be the same way, but some of us still want to be honest, and will not go down the road of treachery which is Sedeism.
You make a lot of bold accusations and presumptions about the motivations of what sedes do and do not desire. Perhaps you need to check your own eye before you start pointing out the specks in the eyes of others.
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Offline Hermes

Re: The Attack on Ultramontanism
« Reply #13 on: August 04, 2021, 08:32:55 AM »
Quote from: Stubborn on August 04, 2021, 07:05:48 AM
Catholic traditions, like the faith, have been well established over the life of the Church to the point that for the most part, these things only need to be handed down and reinforced so that children are raised in the faith and traditions of the Church. This means that as children, we learn our religion from our parents, catechisms, sermons, Catholic school and so on - the pope is not in this picture. Any questions were asked to parents or other Catholics, then to parish priests, not the pope.
What led to them being well established if not for the Popes, councils, and OUM?

In Catholic ecclesiology, your system does not work.
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Offline Stubborn

  • Supporter
Re: The Attack on Ultramontanism
« Reply #14 on: August 04, 2021, 09:30:09 AM »
Quote from: Hermes on August 04, 2021, 08:32:55 AM
What led to them being well established if not for the Popes, councils, and OUM?

In Catholic ecclesiology, your system does not work.
The Ordinary magisterial teachings are the usual day to day teachings of the Church, taught to her members through parents, priests, nuns, teachers, catechisms, hierarchy etc,. The Church's  Universal Magisterium is merely, as PPIX puts it, "all that has been handed down as divinely revealed by the ordinary teaching authority of the entire Church spread over the whole world and which, for this reason, Catholic theologians, with a universal and constant consent, regard as being of the faith". Councils are relatively rare yet their place as regards the UM cannot be over stated.

Deo Gratias they've all done their job, how else could we know V2 is wrong? Yet 1000 - 2000 years ago souls were saved without the Council of Trent, V1 and many other Councils, how did they do it? How do we do it? - resort back to my previous post here. 

In may not work in your idea of Catholic ecclesiology, but in reality that's the way it is.
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