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Author Topic: The Attack on Ultramontanism  (Read 3549 times)

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Offline Stubborn

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Re: The Attack on Ultramontanism
« Reply #45 on: August 04, 2021, 01:15:21 PM »
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  • Look at the whole text, Pius XII does not say "Christ, which is the Church", but "the Mystical Body of Christ, which is the Church". The text of the encyclical explains it: Christ is the Head, while the Church is the Body.
    Pius XII Humani Generis
    27. Some say they are not bound by the doctrine, explained in Our Encyclical Letter of a few years ago, and based on the Sources of Revelation, which teaches that the Mystical Body of Christ and the Roman Catholic Church are one and the same thing.[6] Some reduce to a meaningless formula the necessity of belonging to the true Church in order to gain eternal salvation. Others finally belittle the reasonable character of the credibility of Christian faith.

    I could post more but have to do a little work at the moment
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: The Attack on Ultramontanism
    « Reply #46 on: August 04, 2021, 01:22:26 PM »
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  • You write as if you had forgotten all we've been talking about in the past hours. Wasting our time.
    You said there was a contradiction, and said: "Hence, it must be possible to obey God and obey any legitimate Pope at the same time".
    There is no contradiction when the pope does not want us to do something that offends God. It is not a contradiction to not obey the pope if it offends God, it is simply not possible to obey the pope in those instances. 
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Marion

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    Re: The Attack on Ultramontanism
    « Reply #47 on: August 04, 2021, 01:39:04 PM »
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  • Pius XII Humani Generis
    27. Some say they are not bound by the doctrine, explained in Our Encyclical Letter of a few years ago, and based on the Sources of Revelation, which teaches that the Mystical Body of Christ and the Roman Catholic Church are one and the same thing.[6] Some reduce to a meaningless formula the necessity of belonging to the true Church in order to gain eternal salvation. Others finally belittle the reasonable character of the credibility of Christian faith.

    I could post more but have to do a little work at the moment

    Sure, the Church is (not Christ) but the Mystical Body of Christ. That's undisputed.

    The encyclical Mystici corporis says that Christ is the Head and the Church is the Body. The Body does not include the Head. In #53 Pius says that "Christ in a certain sense lives in the Church, that she is, as it were, another Christ". But: not "the Church is Christ", rather "the Church is another Christ". And this must be understood correctly:

    Quote
    54. Nevertheless this most noble title of the Church must not be so understood as if that ineffable bond by which the Son of God assumed a definite human nature belongs to the universal Church; but it consists in this, that our Savior shares prerogatives peculiarly His own with the Church in such a way that she may portray, in her whole life, both exterior and interior, a most faithful image of Christ. For in virtue of the juridical mission by which our Divine Redeemer sent His Apostles into the world, as He had been sent by the Father, it is He who through the Church baptizes, teaches, rules, looses, binds, offers, sacrifices.

    Not "the Church is Christ", rather "the Church is a most faithful image of Christ".
    That meaning of the sacred dogmas is ever to be maintained which has once been declared by holy mother church. (Dei Filius)

    Offline Marion

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    Re: The Attack on Ultramontanism
    « Reply #48 on: August 04, 2021, 01:45:33 PM »
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  • You said there was a contradiction, and said: "Hence, it must be possible to obey God and obey any legitimate Pope at the same time".

    There is no contradiction when the pope does not want us to do something that offends God. It is not a contradiction to not obey the pope if it offends God, it is simply not possible to obey the pope in those instances.

    You can't just ignore the facts:

    1.) We're forced to obey God.
    2.) We're forced to obey the Vatican Council.
    3.) Given 2.) we're forced to obey the Pope. (Reply #33)

    All these are always true. If I say: There is a Pope I can't obey, then I contradict 3.)
    That meaning of the sacred dogmas is ever to be maintained which has once been declared by holy mother church. (Dei Filius)

    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    Re: The Attack on Ultramontanism
    « Reply #49 on: August 04, 2021, 01:45:47 PM »
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  • The conciliar church is not the Catholic Church.

    So, what is it?  Is the undisputed Head thereof also the Head of the Catholic Church?  If so, HOW is such an absurdity possible?

    Thank you in advance for your unwavering simplicity, clarity and honesty.
    "Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is all man."


    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    Re: The Attack on Ultramontanism
    « Reply #50 on: August 04, 2021, 01:51:04 PM »
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  • Stubborn,

    Do you agree that husband and wife are one, yet distinct?

    Holy Church is the Mystical Body of Christ; He is the (presently-invisible) Head thereof.  The Roman Pontiff is the visible head.

    Holy Church is the Immaculate Spouse of Christ, not Christ Himself; similarly, my wife and I are two in one flesh, but we are not the exact same thing/person/etc.

    If, as you assert, Christ IS the Church, please educate us on what the role of the Holy Ghost is?  Why is the Third Person even involved, if the Second Person IS the Church?  Perhaps Christ IS the Holy Ghost?
    "Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is all man."

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: The Attack on Ultramontanism
    « Reply #51 on: August 04, 2021, 02:42:51 PM »
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  • You can't just ignore the facts:

    1.) We're forced to obey God.
    2.) We're forced to obey the Vatican Council.
    3.) Given 2.) we're forced to obey the Pope. (Reply #33)

    All these are always true. If I say: There is a Pope I can't obey, then I contradict 3.)
    Given #3 referencing reply 33, V1 teaches that as subjects of the pope, we are bound to submit to the pope in *true obedience.*  V1 does not say "obedience", nor does it say blind obedience, V1 specifically teaches that as his subordinates, it is our duty to obey the pope with *true obedience*.

    You've created a conundrum by eliminating "true obedience" and replacing it with either just plain old simple "obedience" or blind obedience, not sure which, perhaps both, I don't know.   

    Either way, our true obedience is owed to him in matters concerning faith and morals and regarding the disciplines/government of the Church - which because the conciliar popes are all hell bent on destroying the Church, in true obedience we cannot obey.

    We would only be contradicting if the pope wanted to implement something Catholic or something not anti-Catholic into the faith/morals/discipline/government of the true Church but we rejected it, other than that, we do not and can never contradict the teaching by exercising and adhering to true obedience.



     


    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: The Attack on Ultramontanism
    « Reply #52 on: August 04, 2021, 02:54:42 PM »
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  • Sure, the Church is (not Christ) but the Mystical Body of Christ. That's undisputed.

    The encyclical Mystici corporis says that Christ is the Head and the Church is the Body. The Body does not include the Head. In #53 Pius says that "Christ in a certain sense lives in the Church, that she is, as it were, another Christ". But: not "the Church is Christ", rather "the Church is another Christ". And this must be understood correctly:

    Not "the Church is Christ", rather "the Church is a most faithful image of Christ".
    The mystical body of Christ, is Christ, the whole Christ, head and all. It's been a long day so if you won't, I will find more authoritative sources in the morning.

    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: The Attack on Ultramontanism
    « Reply #53 on: August 04, 2021, 02:56:53 PM »
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  • So, what is it?  Is the undisputed Head thereof also the Head of the Catholic Church?  If so, HOW is such an absurdity possible?

    Thank you in advance for your unwavering simplicity, clarity and honesty.
    It's the anti-Catholic church. Your question I answered in another thread a few days ago.......
    Quote
    I said:
    The link should start right at the mark, otherwise listen for about 2 minutes from about the 1:13:39 mark.

    https://youtu.be/yFfnTdlrGK4?t=4419

    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: The Attack on Ultramontanism
    « Reply #54 on: August 04, 2021, 03:12:05 PM »
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  • Stubborn,

    Do you agree that husband and wife are one, yet distinct?

    Holy Church is the Mystical Body of Christ; He is the (presently-invisible) Head thereof.  The Roman Pontiff is the visible head.

    Holy Church is the Immaculate Spouse of Christ, not Christ Himself; similarly, my wife and I are two in one flesh, but we are not the exact same thing/person/etc.

    If, as you assert, Christ IS the Church, please educate us on what the role of the Holy Ghost is?  Why is the Third Person even involved, if the Second Person IS the Church?  Perhaps Christ IS the Holy Ghost?
    I've been in front of this screen for +11 hours, I'm done for the day but will answer in the morning or tomorrow as I am able to.
    The quick answer is that Holy Ghost's is the sanctifyer. The pope is the visible head, and is he going to get it when he meets Our Lord, always reminds me of...... "Woe to the pastors, that destroy and tear the sheep of my pasture, saith the Lord. Therefore thus saith the Lord the God of Israel to the pastors that feed my people: You have scattered my flock, and driven them away, and have not visited them: behold I will visit upon you for the evil of your doings, saith the Lord." - Jer 23:1-2
     
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Marion

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    Re: The Attack on Ultramontanism
    « Reply #55 on: August 04, 2021, 09:26:40 PM »
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  • The mystical body of Christ, is Christ, the whole Christ, head and all.

    Above, I quoted the relevant parts of Mystici corporis contradicting what you say.


    It's been a long day so if you won't, I will find more authoritative sources in the morning.

    You would have to, to convince me.
    That meaning of the sacred dogmas is ever to be maintained which has once been declared by holy mother church. (Dei Filius)


    Offline Marion

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    Re: The Attack on Ultramontanism
    « Reply #56 on: August 04, 2021, 10:38:19 PM »
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  • https://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2021/08/the-popes-boundenness-to-tradition-as.html?m=1

    I read several of the first paragraphs. Kwasniewski seems to be echoing Gregorius Hesse, though replacing the crimes of Montini by Bergoglio's motu proprio. Sounds like a typical Trad Inc gatekeeper to me.
    That meaning of the sacred dogmas is ever to be maintained which has once been declared by holy mother church. (Dei Filius)

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: The Attack on Ultramontanism
    « Reply #57 on: August 05, 2021, 05:43:01 AM »
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  • Above, I quoted the relevant parts of Mystici corporis contradicting what you say.


    You would have to, to convince me.
    I must mention that I'm a bit puzzles that this doctrine apparently is something unknown or new to some, but PPXII explains it very well imo. The doctrine stated very simply is this: Christ and the Church are one.

    There are more references out there I'm sure, but these were the most easily found, I bolded the points we're discussing......

    Pope Pius XII

    53. As Bellarmine notes with acuмen and accuracy, this appellation of the Body of Christ is not to be explained solely by the fact that Christ must be called the Head of His Mystical Body, but also by the fact that He so sustains the Church, and so in a certain sense lives in the Church, that she is, as it were, another Christ. The Doctor of the Gentiles, in his letter to the Corinthians, affirms this when, without further qualification, he calls the Church "Christ," following no doubt the example of his Master who called out to him from on high when he was attacking the Church: "Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?"  Indeed, if we are to believe Gregory of Nyssa, the Church is often called simply "Christ" by the Apostle; and you are familiar Venerable Brethren, with that phrase of Augustine: "Christ preaches Christ."

    60. And now, Venerable Brethren, We come to that part of Our explanation in which We desire to make clear why the Body of Christ, which is the Church, should be called mystical. This name, which is used by many early writers, has the sanction of numerous Pontifical docuмents. There are several reasons why it should be used; for by it we may distinguish the Body of the Church, which is a Society whose Head and Ruler is Christ, from His physical Body, which, born of the Virgin Mother of God, now sits at the right hand of the Father and is hidden under the Eucharistic veils; and, that which is of greater importance in view of modern errors, this name enables us to distinguish it from any other body, whether in the physical or the moral order.

    67. Here, Venerable Brethren, We wish to speak in a very special way of our union with Christ in the Body of the Church, a thing which is, as Augustine justly remarks, sublime, mysterious and divine; but for that very reason it often happens that many misunderstand it and explain it incorrectly. It is at once evident that this union is very close. In the Sacred Scriptures it is compared to the chaste union of man and wife, to the vital union of branch and vine, and to the cohesion found in our body. Even more, it is represented as being so close that the Apostle says: "He (Christ) is the Head of the Body of the Church," and the unbroken tradition of the Fathers from the earliest times teaches that the Divine Redeemer and the Society which is His Body form but one mystical person, that is to say to quote Augustine, the whole Christ. Our Savior Himself in His sacerdotal prayer did not hesitate to liken this union to that wonderful unity by which the Son is in the Father, and the Father in the Son.

    77. This communication of the Spirit of Christ is the channel through which all the gifts, powers, and extra-ordinary graces found superabundantly in the Head as in their source flow into all the members of the Church, and are perfected daily in them according to the place they hold in the Mystical Body of Jesus Christ. Thus the Church becomes, as it were, the filling out and the complement of the Redeemer, while Christ in a sense attains through the Church a fullness in all things. Herein we find the reason why, according to the opinion of Augustine already referred to, the mystical Head, which is Christ, and the Church, which here below as another Christ shows forth His person, constitute one new man, in whom heaven and earth are joined together in perpetuating the saving work of the Cross: Christ We mean, the Head and the Body, the whole Christ.



    Eph 5:23
    Because the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ is the head of the church. He is the saviour of his body.

    Col 1:18
    And he is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he may hold the primacy



    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse