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Sedevacantists:if you were convinced sede-ism was wrong, what would you do next?

Become an R&R Traditionalist
12 (36.4%)
Become an Indult Traditionalist
5 (15.2%)
Become an NO Cath Conservative
9 (27.3%)
Become a very liberal Catholic
1 (3%)
Cease to practice Catholicism
6 (18.2%)

Total Members Voted: 27

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Sedevacantists:if you were convinced sede-ism was wrong, what would you do next?
« Reply #90 on: July 08, 2020, 10:14:59 AM »
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    • Quote from: Quo vadis Domine on July 07, 2020, 07:53:37 PM
    Ahh, and this, unfortunately, is what it amounts to. They would rather destroy the fundamental tenets of the papacy and concede that the Church can officially teach and promote error, just so they can say that a degenerate communist heretic is the pope? I don’t get it! Why? Cognitive dissonance?

    I've thought about this myself.  Catholics instinctively know that membership in the Church is intrinsically tied to subjection to the Pope.  So they feel the need to cling to the Papacy.  But they can't separate clinging to the Papacy from having a concrete Pope.  There's also some "normalcy bias" at work here.

    I know there are some who thoughtfully consider sedevacantism and reject it due to some actual theological concern they have, but there are some (including here on CI) who simply froth at the mouth at the mere mention of the possibility.  In those, there's clearly some psychological motivation.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Sedevacantists:if you were convinced sede-ism was wrong, what would you do next?
    « Reply #91 on: July 08, 2020, 10:21:26 AM »
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    • Quote from: Matto on July 07, 2020, 08:02:25 PM
    Because if sedevacantism is true, after sixty two years, there is no Church left on earth

    Yet ...  if R&R is true, there might as well be "no Church left on earth".  If the "Church" serves mostly to lead people to hell, then we'd be better off without one.  One of the primary reasons Our Lord founded a Church was to keep souls anchored in the TRUTH, to be their rock of truth.  What purpose does the Conciliar Church server?  Is it just so we can put a picture of some guy wearing white in the vestibule?  I guess that makes some people feel better.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Sedevacantists:if you were convinced sede-ism was wrong, what would you do next?
    « Reply #92 on: July 08, 2020, 10:25:26 AM »
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    • Quote from: Quo vadis Domine on July 07, 2020, 08:21:10 PM
    So you would rather embrace the erroneous notion that the Church can officially promote and teach error? Would you rather believe that the papacy is superfluous? There is *no* dogma that states that an interregnum can’t be 60, 70, or 100 years and I never contended that there are no bishops today that have ordinary jurisdiction. Have faith my friend and *trust* God.

    And there's some precedent for this.  The so-called Great Western Schism went on for NEARLY 40 YEARS.  While there was a legitimate pope the whole time, Catholics were absolutely confused about where the TRUE CHURCH was.  There was no obvious "Church to point to" during that time either.  This did not compromise the indefectibility of the Church, nor would a prolonged vacancy.  Now, a total corruption of the Magisterium and the Church's Rites of Worship, now THAT would compromise indefectibility.
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Sedevacantists:if you were convinced sede-ism was wrong, what would you do next?
    « Reply #93 on: July 08, 2020, 10:42:08 AM »
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    Yet ...  if R&R is true, there might as well be "no Church left on earth".  If the "Church" serves mostly to lead people to hell, then we'd be better off without one. 
    You could argue that that Arian heresy is an example of a prolonged R&R situation (let's not get into the weeds on the "kind" of R&R, just a general point).  You had a weak, ineffective, heretical-condoning pope, you had (according to historical accounts) 98-99% of the catholic clerics/population infected with the Arian heresy, you had self-espoused "arian-catholic priests" arguing with "I-agree-with-Arianism-but-not-your-kind" priests, and then you had "St Athanasius against the world", the only (maybe a handful of others) cleric who was truly orthodox.
    .
    After Arianism went away (remember, Arianism had already been condemned multiple times before the time of St Athanasius, just like the tenets of Modernism have been condemned previously), there was not a re-consecration of bishops, nor a re-election of Cardinals, nor a re-election of popes, nor a re-installation of bishops into dioceses...the heresy went away and orthodoxy return when a 100% orthodox pope was elected (who also censured Pope Honorius).  You can easily argue that 98% of the clergy at the time (including the pope) led people into error because as it was said "the entire world groaned under the error of Arianism."  Very similar circuмstances to V2 and indefectibility didn't apply.
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    Offline Argentino

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    Re: Sedevacantists:if you were convinced sede-ism was wrong, what would you do next?
    « Reply #94 on: July 08, 2020, 11:26:00 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on July 08, 2020, 10:25:26 AM
    And there's some precedent for this.  The so-called Great Western Schism went on for NEARLY 40 YEARS.  While there was a legitimate pope the whole time, Catholics were absolutely confused about where the TRUE CHURCH was.  There was no obvious "Church to point to" during that time either.  This did not compromise the indefectibility of the Church, nor would a prolonged vacancy.  Now, a total corruption of the Magisterium and the Church's Rites of Worship, now THAT would compromise indefectibility.

    During that time, it was not a question of where the true Church was any more than it was when the Roman See was vacant.
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    Offline Argentino

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    Re: Sedevacantists:if you were convinced sede-ism was wrong, what would you do next?
    « Reply #95 on: July 08, 2020, 11:36:15 AM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on July 08, 2020, 10:42:08 AM
    You could argue that that Arian heresy is an example of a prolonged R&R situation (let's not get into the weeds on the "kind" of R&R, just a general point).  You had a weak, ineffective, heretical-condoning pope, you had (according to historical accounts) 98-99% of the catholic clerics/population infected with the Arian heresy, you had self-espoused "arian-catholic priests" arguing with "I-agree-with-Arianism-but-not-your-kind" priests, and then you had "St Athanasius against the world", the only (maybe a handful of others) cleric who was truly orthodox.
    .
    After Arianism went away (remember, Arianism had already been condemned multiple times before the time of St Athanasius, just like the tenets of Modernism have been condemned previously), there was not a re-consecration of bishops, nor a re-election of Cardinals, nor a re-election of popes, nor a re-installation of bishops into dioceses...the heresy went away and orthodoxy return when a 100% orthodox pope was elected (who also censured Pope Honorius).  You can easily argue that 98% of the clergy at the time (including the pope) led people into error because as it was said "the entire world groaned under the error of Arianism."  Very similar circuмstances to V2 and indefectibility didn't apply.

    Your general point failed. Catholics didn't resist anything from a pope in teaching, liturgy or discipline.
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Sedevacantists:if you were convinced sede-ism was wrong, what would you do next?
    « Reply #96 on: July 08, 2020, 12:44:37 PM »
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    Catholics didn't resist anything from a pope in teaching, liturgy or discipline.
    Neither do R&R Trads today, because there is nothing in V2 that is binding on anyone’s conscience.  And the new mass is not obligatory.  +Vigano’s view of new-Rome agrees.
    .
    The period of Arianism is even MORE similar to today when you view that Honorius’ lack of condemning error (while never officially condoning it) created a chaos vacuum where the catholic faithful/clergy didn’t have a clear authority and guide.  So what happened? This left the Arian clergy free reign to assert authority and declare Arianism to be true (I’m sure they used Honorius’ words against him), just like the Modernists bishops used V2’s ambiguity against the faithful and also Paul VI’s contradictory statements on everything.  In the end, both then and now, the evil bishops/priests were the ones that corrupted the people.  The popes created confusion by lack of leadership (Honorius) or by a contradiction (V2 popes).  But OFFICIALLY neither Honorius nor the V2 popes have ever commanded sin or error to be accepted.
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    Offline forlorn

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    Re: Sedevacantists:if you were convinced sede-ism was wrong, what would you do next?
    « Reply #97 on: July 08, 2020, 01:07:35 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on July 08, 2020, 12:44:37 PM
    Neither do R&R Trads today, because there is nothing in V2 that is binding on anyone’s conscience.  And the new mass is not obligatory.  +Vigano’s view of new-Rome agrees.
    .
    The period of Arianism is even MORE similar to today when you view that Honorius’ lack of condemning error (while never officially condoning it) created a chaos vacuum where the catholic faithful/clergy didn’t have a clear authority and guide.  So what happened? This left the Arian clergy free reign to assert authority and declare Arianism to be true (I’m sure they used Honorius’ words against him), just like the Modernists bishops used V2’s ambiguity against the faithful and also Paul VI’s contradictory statements on everything.  In the end, both then and now, the evil bishops/priests were the ones that corrupted the people.  The popes created confusion by lack of leadership (Honorius) or by a contradiction (V2 popes).  But OFFICIALLY neither Honorius nor the V2 popes have ever commanded sin or error to be accepted.
    They did command Catholic countries to secularise. 
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Sedevacantists:if you were convinced sede-ism was wrong, what would you do next?
    « Reply #98 on: July 08, 2020, 01:29:23 PM »
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    They did command Catholic countries to secularise. 
    Is that the main gripe then?  Was secularization commanded under pain of sin?  If not, that has nothing to do with the magisterium but with political policy and the Vatican govt.  You can be in a secularized country and still save your soul.  Is it ideal?  No, but secularization was already happening to all catholic countries since the 1600s, due to Protestantism and Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ.
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    Offline Struthio

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    Re: Sedevacantists:if you were convinced sede-ism was wrong, what would you do next?
    « Reply #99 on: July 08, 2020, 02:13:34 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on July 08, 2020, 01:29:23 PM
    Is that the main gripe then?  Was secularization commanded under pain of sin?  If not, that has nothing to do with the magisterium but with political policy and the Vatican govt.  You can be in a secularized country and still save your soul.  Is it ideal?  No, but secularization was already happening to all catholic countries since the 1600s, due to Protestantism and Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ.

    Secularization was commanded "in the Holy Spirit" and "for the glory of God":

    Quote from: The Magisterium of Antichrist,
    Consequently, in order that relationships of peace and harmony be established and maintained within the whole of mankind, it is necessary that religious freedom be everywhere provided with an effective constitutional guarantee and that respect be shown for the high duty and right of man freely to lead his religious life in society.

    May the God and Father of all grant that the human family, through careful observance of the principle of religious freedom in society, may be brought by the grace of Christ and the power of the Holy Spirit to the sublime and unending and “glorious freedom of the sons of God” (Rom. 8:21).

    Each and all these matters which are set forth in this Declaration have been favorably voted on by the Fathers of the Council. And We, by the apostolic authority given Us by Christ and in union with the Fathers, approve, decree and establish them in the Holy Spirit and command that they be promulgated for the glory of God.

    I, Paul, Bishop of the Catholic Church

    There follow the signatures of the Fathers.

    stjosef.at
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Sedevacantists:if you were convinced sede-ism was wrong, what would you do next?
    « Reply #100 on: July 08, 2020, 02:27:29 PM »
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    • Quote from: Matto on July 07, 2020, 08:02:25 PM
    Because if sedevacantism is true, after sixty two years, there is no Church left on earth, having not only no pope, but no Bishops with authority from God through the pope. All that is left is a handful of laymen playing make believe and praying the rosary. Whenever the vocal sedes talk about how R&R would be a defection, I feel they are deaf, dumb, and blind, as if the Church for all intents and purposes ceasing to exist upon earth is not also a defection? And a greater one. For in the R&R model, faults as it may have, there is at least a Church to point to.
    One of the doctrines the sedes have backwards is that Church, which is Christ, is in danger of defecting. This because the pope and hierarchy et al have defected. Since somewhere in their mind they know this is impossible, they concoct a theory that goes something along the lines of; "there must be at least one true living bishop somewhere in this world or the Church has defected".  Altogether backwards.

    It's like everything sede Matto, that the Church is indefectible is foundational, which makes this foundation the starting point with which all other theories, however wild, must agree. But, as you know, that is not their starting point. Their starting point is with an empty Chair and ends with a Church that has or is almost defected. 
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Sedevacantists:if you were convinced sede-ism was wrong, what would you do next?
    « Reply #101 on: July 08, 2020, 02:48:34 PM »
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    • Quote from: Struthio on July 08, 2020, 02:13:34 PM
    Secularization was commanded "in the Holy Spirit" and "for the glory of God":



    Quote from: The Magisterium of Antichrist,
    Quote
    Consequently, in order that relationships of peace and harmony be established and maintained within the whole of mankind, it is necessary that religious freedom be everywhere provided with an effective constitutional guarantee and that respect be shown for the high duty and right of man freely to lead his religious life in society.

    May the God and Father of all grant that the human family, through careful observance of the principle of religious freedom in society, may be brought by the grace of Christ and the power of the Holy Spirit to the sublime and unending and “glorious freedom of the sons of God” (Rom. 8:21).

    Each and all these matters which are set forth in this Declaration have been favorably voted on by the Fathers of the Council. And We, by the apostolic authority given Us by Christ and in union with the Fathers, approve, decree and establish them in the Holy Spirit and command that they be promulgated for the glory of God.

    I, Paul, Bishop of the Catholic Church

    There follow the signatures of the Fathers.


    stjosef.at

    stjosef.at


    But it was "pastoral."  :laugh2:
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    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline Struthio

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    Re: Sedevacantists:if you were convinced sede-ism was wrong, what would you do next?
    « Reply #102 on: July 08, 2020, 02:58:31 PM »
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    • Quote from: The Magisterium of Antichrist
    We, by the apostolic authority given Us by Christ and in union with the Fathers, approve, decree and establish them in the Holy Spirit and command that they be promulgated for the glory of God.

    I, Paul, Bishop of the Catholic Church

    There follow the signatures of the Fathers.



    Quote from: Catholic Encyclopedia
    Conciliar decrees approved by the pope have a double guarantee of infallibility: their own and that of the infallible pope.
    newadvent.org
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Sedevacantists:if you were convinced sede-ism was wrong, what would you do next?
    « Reply #103 on: July 08, 2020, 03:04:24 PM »
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    • Quote
    Secularization was commanded
    :facepalm:  Reading comprehension...
    .

    Quote
    Conciliar decrees
    A conciliar decree (an infallible doctrinal statement, which didn’t happen in V2) is different than the phrase “we decree” that you posted.   :facepalm:  Reading comprehension problem #1,004.
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    Offline Struthio

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    Re: Sedevacantists:if you were convinced sede-ism was wrong, what would you do next?
    « Reply #104 on: July 08, 2020, 03:08:59 PM »
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    • Quote
    Infallibility of general councils

    All the arguments which go to prove the infallibility of the Church apply with their fullest force to the infallible authority of general councils in union with the pope. For conciliary decisions are the ripe fruit of the total life-energy of the teaching Church actuated and directed by the Holy Ghost. Such was the mind of the Apostles when, at the Council of Jerusalem (Acts 15:28), they put the seal of supreme authority on their decisions in attributing them to the joint action of the Spirit of God and of themselves: Visum est Spiritui sancto et nobis (It hath seemed good to the Holy Ghost and to us). This formula and the dogma it enshrines stand out brightly in the deposit of faith and have been carefully guarded throughout the many storms raised in councils by the play of the human element. From the earliest times they who rejected the decisions of councils were themselves rejected by the Church. Emperor Constantine saw in the decrees of Nicaea "a Divine commandment" and Athanasius wrote to the bishops of Africa: "What God has spoken through the Council of Nicaea endureth for ever." St. Ambrose (Ep. xxi) pronounces himself ready to die by the sword rather than give up the Nicene decrees, and Pope Leo the Great expressly declares that "whoso resists the Councils of Nicaea and Chalcedon cannot be numbered among Catholics" (Ep. lxxviii, ad Leonem Augustum). In the same epistle he says that the decrees of Chalcedon were framed instruente Spiritu Sancto, i.e. under the guidance of the Holy Ghost. How the same doctrine was embodied in many professions of faith may be seen in Denzinger's (ed. Stahl) "Enchiridion symbolorum et definitionum", under the heading (index) "Concilium generale representat ecclesiam universalem, eique absolute obediendum" (General councils represent the universal Church and demand absolute obedience). The Scripture texts on which this unshaken belief is based are, among others: "But when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will teach you all truth . . ." John 16:13) "Behold I am with you [teaching] all days even to the consummation of the world" (Matthew 28:20), "The gates of hell shall not prevail against it [i.e. the Church]" (Matthew 16:18).

    Quote
    Papal and conciliar infallibility

    [...]

    The Divine constitution of the Church and the promises of Divine assistance made by her Founder, guarantee her inerrancy, in matters pertaining to faith and morals, independently of the pope's infallibility

    https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04423f.htm
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