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Poll

Sedevacantists:if you were convinced sede-ism was wrong, what would you do next?

Become an R&R Traditionalist
12 (36.4%)
Become an Indult Traditionalist
5 (15.2%)
Become an NO Cath Conservative
9 (27.3%)
Become a very liberal Catholic
1 (3%)
Cease to practice Catholicism
6 (18.2%)

Total Members Voted: 27

Author Topic: Sedevacantists:if you were convinced sede-ism was wrong, what would you do next?  (Read 15034 times)

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Offline Matto

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Why?
Because if sedevacantism is true, after sixty two years, there is no Church left on earth, having not only no pope, but no Bishops with authority from God through the pope. All that is left is a handful of laymen playing make believe and praying the rosary. Whenever the vocal sedes talk about how R&R would be a defection, I feel they are deaf, dumb, and blind, as if the Church for all intents and purposes ceasing to exist upon earth is not also a defection? And a greater one. For in the R&R model, faults as it may have, there is at least a Church to point to.
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Offline Quo vadis Domine

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Because if sedevacantism is true, after sixty two years, there is no Church left on earth, having not only no pope, but no Bishops with authority from God through the pope. All that is left is a handful of laymen playing make believe and praying the rosary.

So you would rather embrace the erroneous notion that the Church can officially promote and teach error? Would you rather believe that the papacy is superfluous? There is *no* dogma that states that an interregnum can’t be 60, 70, or 100 years and I never contended that there are no bishops today that have ordinary jurisdiction. Have faith my friend and *trust* God.
For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?


Offline Matto

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So you would rather embrace the erroneous notion that the Church can officially promote and teach error? That the pope is superfluous? There is *no* dogma that states that an interregnum can’t be 60, 70, or 100 years and I never contended that there are no bishops today that have ordinary jurisdiction. Have faith my friend and trust God.
  
I have faith in God and I trust him. Let's be honest. You can not name one real Bishop who agrees with you. So the pope is not superfluous, but we can go for a hundred years without one? Where is the infallible and indefectible Church today? You can not point to it. There are problems with sedevacantism also if we are to be honest with ourselves. But can the Church teach error officially? Maybe if it is official but not infallible. Who knows? I don't have all the answers, but in my experience the sedes don't have them either.
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Please pray for the repose of my soul.

Offline Matto

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I mean, can the Church officially teach error if it is not infallible? I do not think this is as clear as the sedes would have it. The most obvious example is the geocentrism issue which was taught as a matter of faith, and then the teaching was quietly changed, about which I have never seen a satisfying explanation by the sedes (which cassini always used to point out) and most of what I have seen about the issue seemed dishonest. So I don't really know. But I object to the sede-supremacy.
R.I.P.
Please pray for the repose of my soul.

Offline Matto

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Anyway I thought it was dogma that there would be popes until the end of time. But the sedes argue that one away as well. Except for a hundred years here or there.
R.I.P.
Please pray for the repose of my soul.


Offline Stubborn

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No Sean, you don’t just lower the status of the papacy, you border on hating it. Frankly, I find it repulsive. If I thought Bergoglio was a real pope, I would obey him unquestionably. Obviously, I can’t because he’s a heretic and a heretic is not a Catholic and someone who is not a Catholic can’t possibly be the head of the Catholic Church.
"In this field, God has given the Holy Father a kind of infallibility distinct from the charism of doctrinal infallibility in the strict sense. He has so constructed and ordered the Church that those who follow the directives given to the entire kingdom of God on earth will never be brought into the position of ruining themselves spiritually through this obedience".- Fr. Fenton

Quo, what you are saying is in fact what the masses *actually did* when the revolution was only in it's infancy - they obeyed unquestionably.

It's not too far fetched to say the success of the NO altogether hinged upon the above quote, because when Catholics in the 60s and 70s saw what was happening within the Church and saw what they KNEW was wrong, the enemies' won over most of the the stubborn hold outs by appealing to the above false teaching, thereby convincing most of the holdouts that obedience to the authority of the pope makes null and void our duty to remain faithful to the true faith and doctrines of the Church - just exactly as you believe and just as exactly as directed to do by Fr. Fenton and other certain theologians of the past two centuries as quoted above.

I know you don't engage debates with me, so be it, but know the above quote is at least grave error, if not outright heresy, a heresy that Lad repeatedly quotes in support of sedes as their impenetrable foundation - which in reality is a foundation made of nothing but sand.  

Consider that if in fact the above is truly an authentic teaching of the Church, then I, as well as you, as well as Lad and all other sedes, as well as all of the people on earth who *do not* "obey him unquestionably" will lose our souls.
"But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

Offline Nishant Xavier

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Stubborn, but it is not just the Theologians. The Popes themselves say that the Ordinary Magisterium is to be regarded as being protected by the promise, "Whoever hears you, hears Me". This is the way it is explained by Pope Pius XII in Humani Generis. The theory that doctrine taught even by the non-infallible Magisterium of the Roman Pontiffs or of the teaching Church is nonetheless at least safe even if not immediately infallibly true dogma comes from that. Your thoughts on those words of the Holy Father Pope Pius XII?

Quote from: Quo
There is *no* dogma that states that an interregnum can’t be 60, 70, or 100 years and I never contended that there are no bishops today that have ordinary jurisdiction.
Well, the two are inter-connected. Loss of Papally Authorized Bishops=Loss of Ordinary Jurisdiction=Defection of the Church's Apostolicity.

Unless you wish to argue that Ordinary Jurisdiction can be transmitted to the Bishops apart from the Pope, but that seems to contradict doctrine of the Authentic Magisterium of Pope Pius XII, who taught, in Ad Apostolorum Principis, in 1958: "bishops who have been neither named nor confirmed by the Apostolic See, but who, on the contrary, have been elected and consecrated in defiance of its express orders, enjoy no powers of teaching or of jurisdiction since jurisdiction passes to bishops only through the Roman Pontiff as We admonished in the Encyclical Letter Mystici Corporis in the following words: ". . . As far as his own diocese is concerned each (bishop) feeds the flock entrusted to him as a true shepherd and rules it in the name of Christ. Yet in exercising this office they are not altogether independent but are subordinate to the lawful authority of the Roman Pontiff, although enjoying ordinary power of jurisdiction which they receive directly from the same Supreme Pontiff."[13]

40. And when We later addressed to you the letter Ad Sinarum gentem, We again referred to this teaching in these words: "The power of jurisdiction which is conferred directly by divine right on the Supreme Pontiff comes to bishops by that same right, but only through the successor of Peter, to whom not only the faithful but also all bishops are bound to be constantly subject and to adhere both by the reverence of obedience and by the bond of unity."[14]" 

http://www.vatican.va/content/pius-xii/en/encyclicals/docuмents/hf_p-xii_enc_29061958_ad-apostolorum-principis.html No Pope in history perhaps had taught this doctrine as clearly as Pope Pius XII, whom sedevacantists now consider to be "the last Pope". Yet, if you agree (1) the Church cannot lose Apostolicity, and (2) at least some Bishops with Ordinary Jurisdiction are necessary for the Church's Apostolicity, then you must hold that (3) Ordinary Jurisdiction can be transmitted to Bishops other than through the Successor of St. Peter, which seems to contradict Pope Pius XII word-for-word. Cardinal Ottaviani and Msgr. Fenton also confirmed this doctrine of Pope Pius XII in their writings. If you want to discuss this in more detail, we can do that in the "Oldest living Bishops" thread.

Ladislaus, I agree with Bp. Athanasius Schneider almost completely. Bp. Athanasius has also been very strong on the necessity of explicit faith in Christ for salvation, identifying that as one of the key issues of the day: yet I support Abp. Vigano also, and believe both Bishops are on the same side, fighting for the same end, trying to correct the abuses that have cropped up. These issues have to be discussed by the Church Authorities, especially Bishops, and I believe that will be done correctly at something like a future Third Vatican Council. One of the early traditionalists Priests - I forgot his name; he wasn't SSPX, though - was a proponent of a Vatican III. It is at such a future Council, which will be dogmatic and infallible, that some of these issues can be corrected/explicitly defined. 
"We wish also to make amends for the insults to which Your Vicar on earth and Your Priests are everywhere subjected [above all by schismatic sedevacantists - Nishant Xavier], for the profanation, by conscious neglect or Terrible Acts of Sacrilege, of the very Sacrament of Your Divine Love; and lastly for the Public Crimes of Nations who resist the Rights and The Teaching Authority of the Church which You have founded." - Act of Reparation to the Sacred Heart of Lord Jesus.

Offline Quo vadis Domine

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Stubborn, but it is not just the Theologians. The Popes themselves say that the Ordinary Magisterium is to be regarded as being protected by the promise, "Whoever hears you, hears Me". This is the way it is explained by Pope Pius XII in Humani Generis. The theory that doctrine taught even by the non-infallible Magisterium of the Roman Pontiffs or of the teaching Church is nonetheless at least safe even if not immediately infallibly true dogma comes from that. Your thoughts on those words of the Holy Father Pope Pius XII?
Well, the two are inter-connected. Loss of Papally Authorized Bishops=Loss of Ordinary Jurisdiction=Defection of the Church's Apostolicity.

Unless you wish to argue that Ordinary Jurisdiction can be transmitted to the Bishops apart from the Pope, but that seems to contradict doctrine of the Authentic Magisterium of Pope Pius XII, who taught, in Ad Apostolorum Principis, in 1958: "bishops who have been neither named nor confirmed by the Apostolic See, but who, on the contrary, have been elected and consecrated in defiance of its express orders, enjoy no powers of teaching or of jurisdiction since jurisdiction passes to bishops only through the Roman Pontiff as We admonished in the Encyclical Letter Mystici Corporis in the following words: ". . . As far as his own diocese is concerned each (bishop) feeds the flock entrusted to him as a true shepherd and rules it in the name of Christ. Yet in exercising this office they are not altogether independent but are subordinate to the lawful authority of the Roman Pontiff, although enjoying ordinary power of jurisdiction which they receive directly from the same Supreme Pontiff."[13]

40. And when We later addressed to you the letter Ad Sinarum gentem, We again referred to this teaching in these words: "The power of jurisdiction which is conferred directly by divine right on the Supreme Pontiff comes to bishops by that same right, but only through the successor of Peter, to whom not only the faithful but also all bishops are bound to be constantly subject and to adhere both by the reverence of obedience and by the bond of unity."[14]"

http://www.vatican.va/content/pius-xii/en/encyclicals/docuмents/hf_p-xii_enc_29061958_ad-apostolorum-principis.html No Pope in history perhaps had taught this doctrine as clearly as Pope Pius XII, whom sedevacantists now consider to be "the last Pope". Yet, if you agree (1) the Church cannot lose Apostolicity, and (2) at least some Bishops with Ordinary Jurisdiction are necessary for the Church's Apostolicity, then you must hold that (3) Ordinary Jurisdiction can be transmitted to Bishops other than through the Successor of St. Peter, which seems to contradict Pope Pius XII word-for-word. Cardinal Ottaviani and Msgr. Fenton also confirmed this doctrine of Pope Pius XII in their writings. If you want to discuss this in more detail, we can do that in the "Oldest living Bishops" thread.

Ladislaus, I agree with Bp. Athanasius Schneider almost completely. Bp. Athanasius has also been very strong on the necessity of explicit faith in Christ for salvation, identifying that as one of the key issues of the day: yet I support Abp. Vigano also, and believe both Bishops are on the same side, fighting for the same end, trying to correct the abuses that have cropped up. These issues have to be discussed by the Church Authorities, especially Bishops, and I believe that will be done correctly at something like a future Third Vatican Council. One of the early traditionalists Priests - I forgot his name; he wasn't SSPX, though - was a proponent of a Vatican III. It is at such a future Council, which will be dogmatic and infallible, that some of these issues can be corrected/explicitly defined.
I have no problem in believing that bishops can and could legitimately be appointed by false shepherds under common error, especially in the Eastern Rite of the Church. I also have no problem in believing that some older bishops validly consecrated in the Roman Rite didn’t resign to lawful authority and thus still retain their office. 
You, on the other hand, have a much much bigger problem. You have to accept the *condemned* proposition that the Church can teach and promote error. 
For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?


Offline Stubborn

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Stubborn, but it is not just the Theologians. The Popes themselves say that the Ordinary Magisterium is to be regarded as being protected by the promise, "Whoever hears you, hears Me". This is the way it is explained by Pope Pius XII in Humani Generis. The theory that doctrine taught even by the non-infallible Magisterium of the Roman Pontiffs or of the teaching Church is nonetheless at least safe even if not immediately infallibly true dogma comes from that. Your thoughts on those words of the Holy Father Pope Pius XII?
You are way off the context of what I said. My point is that the dogma states in apodictic terms that the pope is infallible when he defines a doctrine ex cathedra - period.

The pope has no other "kind of infallibility distinct from the charism of doctrinal infallibility", this is a novel idea, this is grave error or heresy - to insist he has an other infallibility in addition to the infallibility defined at V1, is to grant him an infallibility that per V1, he simply does not have. Do you agree?




"But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

Offline Nishant Xavier

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It is absolutely and unambiguously clear that the Conciliar sect teaches that salvation can be obtained through any religion and even no religion.  So, if Bergoglio is the pope, one can legitimately ditch all religion, lead an entirely secular life, just be a "good person", be environmentally conscientious, and one is pretty much assured heaven.
I missed to respond to this. No, it isn't "absolutely and unambiguously clear". Here is CCC 161, "http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/161.htm
161 Believing in Jesus Christ and in the One who sent him for our salvation is necessary for obtaining that salvation. "Since "without faith it is impossible to please [God]" and to attain to the fellowship of his sons, therefore without faith no one has ever attained justification, nor will anyone obtain eternal life 'But he who endures to the end.'"
And Ad Gentes, Vatican II, on the Missionary Activity of the Church: "7. This missionary activity derives its reason from the will of God, "who wishes all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, Himself a man, Jesus Christ, who gave Himself as a ransom for all" (1 Tim. 2:4-5), "neither is there salvation in any other" (Acts 4:12). Therefore, all must be converted to Him, made known by the Church's preaching, and all must be incorporated into Him by baptism and into the Church which is His body. For Christ Himself "by stressing in express language the necessity of faith and baptism (cf. Mark 16:16; John 3:5), at the same time confirmed the necessity of the Church, into which men enter by baptism, as by a door. Therefore those men cannot be saved, who though aware that God, through Jesus Christ founded the Church as something necessary, still do not wish to enter into it, or to persevere in it."(17) Therefore though God in ways known to Himself can lead those inculpably ignorant of the Gospel to find that faith without which it is impossible to please Him (Heb. 11:6), yet a necessity lies upon the Church (1 Cor. 9:16), and at the same time a sacred duty, to preach the Gospel. And hence missionary activity today as always retains its power and necessity." http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/docuмents/vat-ii_decree_19651207_ad-gentes_en.html

Quo Vaidis Domine, I don't say the Church can teach error. Jurisdiction will not be supplied to heretics for heretics to make appointments. Is jurisdiction supplied to the Patriarch of Constantinople and Patriarch of Moscow? If the Papal appointments confer authority, it is because those doing the appointing are True Popes. 

Stubborn, this is Humani Generis: "20. Nor must it be thought that what is expounded in Encyclical Letters does not of itself demand consent, since in writing such Letters the Popes do not exercise the supreme power of their Teaching Authority. For these matters are taught with the ordinary teaching authority, of which it is true to say: "He who heareth you, heareth me";[3] and generally what is expounded and inculcated in Encyclical Letters already for other reasons appertains to Catholic doctrine. But if the Supreme Pontiffs in their official docuмents purposely pass judgment on a matter up to that time under dispute, it is obvious that that matter, according to the mind and will of the Pontiffs, cannot be any longer considered a question open to discussion among theologians." Agree or disagree?
"We wish also to make amends for the insults to which Your Vicar on earth and Your Priests are everywhere subjected [above all by schismatic sedevacantists - Nishant Xavier], for the profanation, by conscious neglect or Terrible Acts of Sacrilege, of the very Sacrament of Your Divine Love; and lastly for the Public Crimes of Nations who resist the Rights and The Teaching Authority of the Church which You have founded." - Act of Reparation to the Sacred Heart of Lord Jesus.

Offline Pax Vobis

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Xavier, that Pius XII passage is making a distinction between 1) infallible teaching and 2) papal decisions (ie “passing judgement”).  He was saying that it is wrong to ignore papal judgments (ie legal/govt decisions) because they aren’t “infallible doctrine”.  He was also saying that some some encyclicals “pertain to doctrine” so we must give respect to them (which, up til that time in history, 1900 yrs, there has never been error in an encyclical).
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V2 didn’t pass judgement on anything (which is part of the pope’s governing power, not his teaching power).  It did “pertain to doctrine” but giving assent (temporarily) does not mean we accept error (long term).
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As +Vigano stated, we’ve tried to make V2 consistent with Orthodoxy and it doesn’t work.  So we cast it out into the darkness. This is consistent with what Pius XII wrote above. 


Offline Pax Vobis

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Stubborn,
Good reminder about the faulty theology of Fenton, whom +Vigano totally disagrees with.

Offline OHCA

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Anyway I thought it was dogma that there would be popes until the end of time. But the sedes argue that one away as well. Except for a hundred years here or there.

Is perpetually, in the context you allude to, broken every time a Pope dies?  Of course not!  Whose “time” matters most?  Ours or God’s?  I submit that would be God’s “time” is much more relevant than ours.  61 years and 9 months, 100 years, 500 years is hardly more to God than the blink of an eye—hardly more than the interim when a Pope passes.

Offline Stubborn

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Stubborn, this is Humani Generis: "20. Nor must it be thought that what is expounded in Encyclical Letters does not of itself demand consent, since in writing such Letters the Popes do not exercise the supreme power of their Teaching Authority. For these matters are taught with the ordinary teaching authority, of which it is true to say: "He who heareth you, heareth me";[3] and generally what is expounded and inculcated in Encyclical Letters already for other reasons appertains to Catholic doctrine. But if the Supreme Pontiffs in their official docuмents purposely pass judgment on a matter up to that time under dispute, it is obvious that that matter, according to the mind and will of the Pontiffs, cannot be any longer considered a question open to discussion among theologians." Agree or disagree?
Of course I agree.

1st, V1 defined when the pope is infallible, i.e. when he defines a doctrine ex cathedra.
2nd, certain theologians, Fr. Fenton in this case, added an additional infallibility, one that is of their own invention.
3rd, like Quo, this addition to the dogma swayed and still sways those who believe in this new infallibility to join the NO and/or go sede.

It is the theologians of the past few centuries who are guilty of passing judgement on the official docuмents of the popes, not I. They are the ones who took it upon themselves to grant an infallibility not found in any papal docuмent, official or otherwise, which has proven to be the cause of much scandal within the Church.
"But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

Offline Pax Vobis

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This is the most wrongly-quoted Pius XII passage in history.  Both sedes and (anti-sede) Xavier quote it the same, but it's a lack of reading comprehension that produces a wrong conclusion.
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Quote
20. Nor must it be thought that what is expounded in Encyclical Letters does not of itself demand consent,

Of course, an encyclical demands assent.  But what kind?  Certainly not "certainty of faith" which is only for infallible/doctrines.  "Religious submission" maybe?  Which is defined as assent to superiors but which still allows questions/critiques if the encyclical is confusing.
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since in writing such Letters the Popes do not exercise the supreme power of their Teaching Authority.

Obvious.
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Quote
For these matters are taught with the ordinary teaching authority, of which it is true to say: "He who heareth you, heareth me";[3]

Ordinary teaching authority is neither infallible, nor error-free.  It is a reiteration of defined truth.  A re-teaching of dogma.  Mistakes can be made.  Even heresies.  But...Pius XII is saying that we USUALLY trust such encyclicals BECAUSE (see the next phrase below, which is ALWAYS forgotten)...
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Quote
and generally what is expounded and inculcated in Encyclical Letters already for other reasons appertains to Catholic doctrine.

Pius XII is saying that we trust encyclical letters because..."GENERALLY" (but not always.  Not an absolute.  Not 100%) these docuмents pertain to doctrine.  AND...one assumes that such doctrinal writings are ORTHODOX (because we've never before in history had an infiltration into the Church that we've had today.).
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So let's sum up the reasons why we trust encyclical letters (in normal orthodox times):
1.  Because we owe respect and 'religious submission' to our fallible pope.
2.  Because (normally) a pope has orthodoxy as his goal and is trying to teach the faithful good things.
3.  Because (normally) an encyclical is on doctrinal matters, so we give it the benefit of the doubt that it is orthodox, due to trust we have in #1 and #2 above.
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None of this applies to the V2 popes or their encyclicals. 
1) We give them 'religious submission' but we also have the right to be wary of their lack of orthodoxy and to critique their less-than-true writings. 
2) The V2 popes have proven that orthodoxy is not their ultimate goal, nor is re-teaching doctrine, but want to "pastorally apply doctrine" in catholic lives in "new and unique ways for the modern man". 
3) V2 encyclicals have not been "GENERALLY...PERTAINING TO CATHOLIC DOCTRINE", as they've been mixed with new-age ideals, political concerns, and pastoral directives.
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Thus, V2 encyclicals are of the lowest level of the magisterium, which is to say they are 100% fallible and capable of heresy because when you mix doctrine with non-doctrine (politics, pastoral directives, humanism/socialism) then such writings are no longer doctrinally-focused but only opinion, theory and agenda.