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Poll

R&R ONLY: Do you have moral certitude that Leo XIV is a manifest, public, heretic?

Yes
5 (33.3%)
No
9 (60%)
other (please explain)
1 (6.7%)

Total Members Voted: 15

Author Topic: R&R ONLY: Do you have moral certitude Leo XIV is a manifest, public heretic?  (Read 5201 times)

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Offline Catholic Knight

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Laudislaus, unless you present evidence (other than your own words) to support your position, please just be quiet on the matter.



Offline Catholic Knight

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One cannot separate the crime of heresy from the sin of heresy because the crime is based upon the sin.  What makes the sin of heresy a true sin is its formal element, that is, pertinacity.

Online Ladislaus

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When one uses the term "heretic" without any qualification, then it is interpreted as "formal heretic".  The 1917 Code of Canon Law includes pertinacity in its definition of "heretic".

No ... you and Mr. Kramer blur formal heresy with pertinacity ... not the same thing.

So Canon Law doesn't use the term "formal" heretic, but according to you it's merely INTERPRETED (because you want it to be), but then because the word "manifest" doesn't appear, then it doesn't exist because you don't "interpret" it that way.

Manifest is common sense, and the Church only judges the external forum (taught by Popes and unanimously by theologians, since, duh, it's common sense that one cannot judge the internal forum, by definiition).  As mentioned, unless you hold that occult heresy results in loss of office, then "manifest" is what's assumed in Canon Law, and not "formal", not in the way you define it, where it becomes an internal forum judgment.

You and Kramer are just desperate to salvage Wojtyla and Ratzinger while jettisoning Bergoglio and Prevost ... so you make garbage up to justify what you've already decided you want to believe.

Wojtyla, Ratzinger, and Bergoglio were all persistent in holding that the Old Covenant is still in force and salvific for the Jews, contrary to the dogmatic teaching of Florence.  Both Wojtyla and Ratzinger were well educated theologians, educated prior to Vatican II and undoubtedly knew that they were attempting to change prior Church teaching on the matter, and they persisted in teaching this error repeatedly ... which renders it pertinacious manifest heresy.  If anyone was just clownishly repeating stuff he heard and had no clue that Florence taught the opposite, it was Bergoglio.

But then either my opinion or your opinion or Kramer's regarding who "really means" the heresy and who doesn't ... that and $10 might get you a medium-size Starbucks coffee.  We're both speculating, since neither of us can read the internal forum ... that's why the criterion is manifest pertinacious (not formal) heresy.

Manifest is merely opposed to ... occult.
Pertinacity is merely opposed to ... where there was a slip of the tongue, brain fart (didn't mean it), or honestly were wrong about what the Church taught.

So if a priest utters a heretical proposition from the pulpit, and you go ask him and he says "oh, sorry ... that was just a slip of the tongue" or you point out, "hey, Father, that's technically heretical" and he looks it up and says, "oh, you're right", that is contrary to pertinacity.  I once listened to a sermon by an otherwise-wonderful priest that contained close to double-digit Christological heresies, but it's clear that he made those statements in ignorance and not any kind of pertinacious rejection of Church teaching.  That's what pertinacity is contrary to ... not whether he truly, really "meant it" in the internal forum.

If you know that the Council of Florence teaches that the Old Covenant is defunct, replaced, and no longer salvific for anyone ... and you teach the opposite anyway.  Now, when you teach it in an official papal teaching, something that appears in AAS, it's no accident, no slip of the tongue, as things that go out there are reviewed and then formally approved ... unlike if Bergoglio had been shooting the breeze on a papal plane or in an interview with Scalfari or the like.

Now, given that Wojtyla and Ratzinger, even if they were Modernists, were no dummmies ... having received advanced degrees prior to Vatican II when they meant something.  There's no chance that they did not know they are contradicting the teaching of Florence.  Wojtyla invented the teaching that the Old Covenant remains in force and is salvific for the Jews, and then Ratzinger taught it multiple times.  They had to know they were contradicting Church teaching, and because they taught it officially and multiple times, that suffices to establish pertinacity.  Bergoglio on the other hand ... he's a moron that couldn't pass a quiz based on Baltimore Catechism No. 2.  Of course, that doesn't matter, since as Pope, his duties of state require that he know Church teaching, and his ignorance would be culpable.

Online Ladislaus

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https://www.cathinfo.com/crisis-in-the-church/affirm-or-deny-heretic-yet-pope-until-death-(pope-honorius-i-case/msg1010767/#msg1010767

You shoot yourself in the foot by citing the definition of "pertinacity" (which is precisely what I said it is) ...
Quote
holding firmly to error which is in some way known to be error

So all that's required is "holding firmly" to an error.  As I said, this is opposed to a passing thought, slip of the tongue, etc.  When you repeatedly TEACH something, that's "holding firmly" to it.  Then it has to be "in some way know to be error".  Well, yeah, that "some way" is because the Council of Florence anathematized those who held that the Old Covenant was still in force.  So the missing ingredient really is whether it was "known".  That's where I say that if ANYONE knew that this teaching contradicted Florence, it would have been Wojtyla and Ratzinger ... whereas Bergoglio might have thought Florence was just a town in Italy.

You'll notice also in the docuмents you posted that the ignorance must be invincible, otherwise it's culpable and sinful, and culpability can be proportionate to your duties of state.  If a layman doesn't not know some relatively-finer point of moral theology, his ignorance may not be culpable if he commits a sin due to this ignorance ... but if a priest is unaware of the same and gives bad advice to someone in the Confessional, he's culpable since his duties of state required knowledge of such matters.

There's no way that a Pope isn't required by duties of state to know the errors that the Church has anathematized, so he's culpable (aka commits sin) just for that reason.

It's amazing that you cite these docuмents believing they support your case, when they actually undermine it.  That goes to show you the effect that a desired prior conclusion can influence your judgment and your "interpretation" of things.

You should do some introspection.  Just admit it that you WANT the outcome to be that Wojtyla and Ratzinger were not heretical Antipopes but that Bergoglio (and now Prevost?) have been Anti-Popes.  You are STARTING with that desired outcome and so you interpret, spin, and twist everything to suit that outcome.

THAT is by far the greatest dynamic leading to error in modern times, where people have a pre-determined desired outcome and then they engage in confirmation bias or cognitive dissonance to get the evidence to support their conclusion.  This illutrates the genius of the scholastic approach.  For them, when they dealt with the "objections", these weren't just pro-forma exercises to get the opposing views out of the way.  They entered into consideration of the question with the objections in mind and kept an open mind about them, and their final conclusion was the result of honestly entertaining those objections.  That's why they had such a high "hit rate" on truth.


Offline SkidRowCatholic

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So, I notice 9 voted that they are not convicted that Leo is a heretic and 4 say yes they are.

Should I make a poll asking WHY some R&R think he is a heretic?

If so, what should the questions/options be?

Offline Catholic Knight

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Laudislas, the crime of heresy cannot be disassociated from the sin of heresy.  Canon 2195, Section 1 of the 1917 Code of Canon Law defines a delict (crime as such):

".....an external and morally imputable violation of a law to which a canonical sanction, at least an indeterminate one, is attached."

Notice the term "morally imputable".  This implies that the one guilty of a delict is guilty of the sin.  In regards to the crime of heresy, it is the "pertinacity" that underlines it.  And "pertinacity" is the formal element of the sin of heresy as I have shown above.

Online Ladislaus

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So, I notice 9 voted that they are not convicted that Leo is a heretic and 4 say yes they are.

Should I make a poll asking WHY some R&R think he is a heretic?

If so, what should the questions/options be?

So ... you could ask why is it they think he's a heretic and remains Pope.  Do they hold some variation of Cajetan / John of St. Thomas, or Father Chazal's, position?


Offline Catholic Knight

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Quote
Heresy consists precisely in holding firmly to error which is in some way known to be error, for reasons which may be true in themselves, but which do not justify the assent given to the error. Without this quality of pertinacity, there may be material sins of heresy,—erroneous acts of judgment which de facto are opposed to revealed truth. With this quality, such acts are formally sinful, and constitute the subjective element in the delict of heresy, and are the subjective reason for the serious penalties inflicted by the Church.



Note the distinction in the quote above made between material and formal sin and formal sin's relation to pertinacity.