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2. You say an open apostate or heretic would stop being your priest or bishop.

So does the False Prophet need to buy a billboard and announce that he has lost the Catholic Faith? That isn't going to happen. There is an active deception going on. The guy is not going to openly admit that he is a Baptist or a Muslim. He is going to claim that the new Catholic Faith allows things that contradict the traditional Apostolic teaching, such as saying all religions lead to God or that sodomite couples should be blessed.

You have to pay attention and compare the Apostolic Faith to the new Counterfeit Faith.

I'm agreeing with you lol. I'm saying that yeah it's a common sense intuition that a heretic who says that the new Catholic Faith allows things that contradict the traditional Apostolic teaching, such as saying all religions lead to God or that sodomite couples should be blessed would ipso facto lose his office, so I can see how sedevacantism could be true.

In case it wasn't clear:
1 is the R&R intuition
2 is the sede intuition

I think both are intuitions that make sense.

I'm agreeing with you lol. I'm saying that yeah it's a common sense intuition that a heretic who says that the new Catholic Faith allows things that contradict the traditional Apostolic teaching, such as saying all religions lead to God or that sodomite couples should be blessed would ipso facto lose his office, so I can see how sedevacantism could be true.

In case it wasn't clear:
1 is the R&R intuition
2 is the sede intuition

I think both are intuitions that make sense.

Okay. You say "could be true." I say must be true because the Apostolic Faith teaches that IF (note the conditional) a papal claimant does not hold the Catholic Faith, then he is not even Catholic and a non-Catholic cannot possibly be the Vicar of Christ on earth.

We are not talking here about the papal claimant being in error about a theological opinion or changing a perennial discipline. We are talking about a teaching like the exclusivity of Jesus as the Savior of mankind:

Jesus said: Thomas saith to him: Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?  Jesus saith to him: I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No man cometh to the Father, but by me.

Bergoglio said: "One of the things that has impressed me most about the young people here is your capacity for interfaith dialogue. This is very important because if you start arguing, “My religion is more important than yours...,” or “Mine is the true one, yours is not true....,” where does this lead? Somebody answer. [A young person answers, “Destruction”.] That is correct. All religions are paths to God. I will use an analogy, they are like different languages that express the divine. But God is for everyone, and therefore, we are all God’s children. “But my God is more important than yours!”. Is this true? There is only one God, and religions are like languages, paths to reach God. Some Sikh, some Muslim, some Hindu, some Christian. Understood? Yet, interfaith dialogue among young people takes courage. The age of youth is the age of courage, but you can misuse this courage to do things that will not help you. Instead, you should have courage to move forward and to dialogue.

Prevost said: "This year, the Catholic Church celebrates the Jubilee of Hope. Both hope and pilgrimage are realities common to all our religious traditions. This is the journey that Nostra Aetate invites us to continue: to walk together in hope. Then, when we do so, something beautiful happens. Hearts open, bridges are built, and new paths appear where none seemed possible. This is not the work of one religion, one nation, or even one generation. It is a sacred task for all humanity: to keep hope alive, to keep dialogue alive, and to keep love alive in the heart of the world.


What you call the R&R intuition contradicts Scripture. Truth is not constituted by the consensus of a majority. The consensus of the majority in Jesus's day was that Jesus was an agent of Beelzebub and needed to be killed. It should not "make sense" to an informed traditional Catholic.

What you call the Sede intuition is the actual teaching of the Church from Apostolic times based on Titus 3:10-11 "A man that is a heretic, after the first and second admonition, avoid: Knowing that he, that is such an one, is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned by his own judgment."

Sorry for my writing quirks but I think in analogies haha.

There's two principles and axioms that are both true and I think they're related to this:

1. "Hey man what if Toys 'r' us is a front for meth labs in the basement?" "I suppose that could be technically possible, but it's an extraordinary claim that involves a truly extraordinary amount of proof, until then, I have no reason to believe such a thing". You generally trust face-value reality and apply Ockhams razor

2. "Hey man you should see my cat, it's got a beatiful mane, saddle and hooves" "You have a horse, then". Law of identity and non-contradiction

Analogies only go so far. If all Catholics had to go on was the appearance of the institutional apparatus, then your analogy holds fine. But Catholics have Scripture and thousands of years of interpretations of those Scriptures and private revelation to guide us.

We are told by Jesus and the saints to look for certain anomalies at the end of the age. We are told to expect some of those who dress in vestments of wool (sheep's clothing) to be ravening wolves. We are told to beware of the false prophets. We are told that a man will sit in the "temple of God" (the Catholic Church) and promote sin and most Catholics will follow him to destruction because of what is called "the operation of error."

Are you aware of Our Lady's warnings at Quito, at La Salette, at Fatima, at Garabandal, at Akita? They all warn about the same final tribulations inside the Church. What about Leo XIII and the conversation between Satan and Jesus? For 100 years Satan will be allowed to destroy the Church. Is it not obvious that satanic plan is progressing along nicely.

My point is that structurally you should be expecting the situation because Heaven has warned us over and over and over again. And...broken record here, if you are watching for the signs of the times that are warned about, then you should see that they are happening...now.

If God told you a Toy Store would be transformed into a meth lab and you saw zombified people with really bad teeth in and out of there all day and night, might you be able to put 2 and 2 together without God sending a thunderbolt?

The guy claiming to be "the Pope" is teaching another gospel. He is teaching that by "dialoguing" with others we can bring about peace of earth. No Jesus required. Do you see it?