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Author Topic: Red Alert! Are the Sedevacantists the Only True Followers of Abp. Lefebvre?  (Read 17722 times)

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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: Red Alert! Are the Sedevacantists the Only True Followers of Abp. Lefebvre?
« Reply #165 on: January 20, 2024, 12:09:29 PM »
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    There are a handful of dogmatic non-una-cuм types out there, but most are not.
    At this point in time, I think the dogmatic types are far, far in the majority.  This is based on my experience on this site, as well as personal experience with relatives/friends who have cut themselves off from other Trads.

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    What's under discussion is the implication that +Lefebvre may have gone sedevacantist before he died.
    :laugh1:  I've never met +ABL, but i've read enough of his quotes to know that anyone who claims he did x but not y, and never flip-flopped, is just sadly mistaken and doesn't understand +ABL's character.  His quotes are all over the place; he gave so many sermons and he had the ability to entertain a variety of viewpoints, while taking his time to make a decision.  He was a philosopher of sorts; a great thinker.  He was not a "yes, yes, no, no" type of person; not impulsive (and I mean that in a positive way).

    Anyone who says he had "one mind" on a topic is just delusional.  But that's why revisionist history works; people want to hear what they want to hear.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Red Alert! Are the Sedevacantists the Only True Followers of Abp. Lefebvre?
    « Reply #166 on: January 20, 2024, 12:14:01 PM »
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  • At this point in time, I think the dogmatic types are far, far in the majority.

    You're incorrect.  CMRI, SSPV are not dogmatic anti-una-cuм.  Those would be SGG and Bishop Sanborn's group ... who are far outnumbered by CMRI & SSPV.


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Red Alert! Are the Sedevacantists the Only True Followers of Abp. Lefebvre?
    « Reply #167 on: January 20, 2024, 12:14:51 PM »
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    False.  They don't have to prove anything. 
    Of course they do.  They are putting forth a viewpoint that attempts to change people's perceptions and actions, in the religious/theological realm.  They aren't simply writing a history book, and passively putting an idea out there.  They are ACTIVELY trying to engineer social change, in the realm of Traditionalism.  This is another attack on the sspx, pure and simple.  Personally, I don't care about the sspx.  But their actions are propaganda.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Red Alert! Are the Sedevacantists the Only True Followers of Abp. Lefebvre?
    « Reply #168 on: January 20, 2024, 12:17:33 PM »
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    CMRI, SSPV are not dogmatic anti-una-cuм. 
    Maybe "on paper" they aren't dogmatic about it.  But the stories I hear, directly from individuals who attend these chapels, is that this topic is talked about A LOT.  And many laity absorb these "talking points" and apply them in their lives, against una cuм Trads, with disasterous results.  Fr Jenkins' chapels included.  

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Red Alert! Are the Sedevacantists the Only True Followers of Abp. Lefebvre?
    « Reply #169 on: January 20, 2024, 12:21:36 PM »
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    This isn't about whether (una cuм is) sinful.
    It's precisely about the aspect of sin.  Una cuм is a made up 'litmus test' whereby *many* Sede clerics impose their view, either directly or indirectly, to get the laity to avoid non-Sede chapels.  They imply that use of 'una cuм' is sinful and heretical, just the same as many, many on here call other non-Sede Trads 'heretic' all the time.


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Red Alert! Are the Sedevacantists the Only True Followers of Abp. Lefebvre?
    « Reply #170 on: January 20, 2024, 12:26:26 PM »
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  • However, it was my understanding that Fr Epiney heard it directly from ABL. Having said that, I'm just not sure what to make of it. 

    I want to retract my earlier posts because I have seen some other quotes post-1988 that would seem to suggest that ABL wouldn't say the mass non una cuм.  However, I don't rule out the possibility that he did it privately but still held it was a position that should remain private.
    The interview begins by saying: "Fr. Epiney told me personally, so many times that after the 1988 consecrations, Archbishop Lefebvre would not anymore mention the name of John Paul 2 in the Canon of the Mass. So you know, I'm not lying about this, I have no reasons to believe that Fr. Epiney lied about it, and that's what he told me multiple times." He goes on to say he believes it because he believes it came to a head and finally hit +ABL after the 1988 consecrations.

    First, it is easy to understand that +Roy has no reason to disbelieve Fr. Epiney because he is himself non-una cuм, and unlike +ABL, has always believed in and preached non-una cuм. Believes non-una cuм to be correct and probably even virtuous.

    Meanwhile we have recordings of +ABL from 1989, almost a whole year after the consecrations - plenty of time to have "seen the light" - yet he is preaching against sedeism and specifically preaching against non-una cuм....
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    ”… And then, he (Dom Guillou O.S.B. 2) goes through all the prayers of the Canon, all the prayers of the Roman Canon. He goes through them one after the other and then he shows the difference, he gives translations, very good ones. He gives, for example, precisely this famous.. you know, this famous una cuм.., una cuм of the sedevacantists. And you, do you say una cuм? (laughter of the nuns of St-Michel-en-Brenne). You say una cuм in the Canon of the Mass! Then we cannot pray with you; then you’re not Catholic; you’re not this; you’re not that; you’re not.. Ridiculous! ridiculous! because they claim that when we say una cuм summo Pontifice, the Pope, isn’t it, with the Pope, so therefore you embrace everything the Pope says. It’s ridiculous! It’s ridiculous! In fact, this is not the meaning of the prayer..."
    If you read the link, you will find that +ABL continues on to explain what the prayer actually does mean. NOTE: Whether or not sedes agree it means what +ABL says it means does not matter, what matters *in this case* is that *he believes it,* and is on that account he never could have said the Mass non-una cuм, not ever.

    He ends by saying:
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    "Then we must not keep this idea which is FALSE! which a number of Catholics, poorly instructed, poorly taught, believe! So obviously, people no longer understand anything, they are completely desperate, they do not know what to expect! We must keep the Catholic faith as the Church teaches it."
    What the bishop in the video is saying and apparently believes, is that +ABL includes himself among those poorly instructed and poorly taught who believe in a false idea. And that +ABL himself no longer understands anything, is completely desperate and does not know what to expect.

    The whole idea that +ABL was at anytime non-una cuм is altogether absurd to the Nth degree. The video is "ridiculous! ridiculous!"


    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Red Alert! Are the Sedevacantists the Only True Followers of Abp. Lefebvre?
    « Reply #171 on: January 20, 2024, 12:37:11 PM »
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  • Maybe "on paper" they aren't dogmatic about it.  But the stories I hear, directly from individuals who attend these chapels, is that this topic is talked about A LOT.  And many laity absorb these "talking points" and apply them in their lives, against una cuм Trads, with disasterous results.  Fr Jenkins' chapels included. 

    No, they aren't dogmatic about it in reality.  There's a woman who was a prominent member of an SSPV chapel (Father Jenkins) and she taught at the school of an independent una-cuм priest, and went to daily una-cuм Mass there, and Father Jenkins had no objections whatsoever.  Same holds of CMRI, not the least bit dogmatic about the issue.  People go back and forth between the CMRI Akron chapel and Father Carley's una-cuм chapel without any objections from either Father Carley or the CMRI priest.  Your "stories" are simply not true.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Red Alert! Are the Sedevacantists the Only True Followers of Abp. Lefebvre?
    « Reply #172 on: January 20, 2024, 12:38:07 PM »
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    The whole idea that +ABL was at anytime non-una cuм is altogether absurd to the Nth degree.
    No, it's ridiculous to say that +ABL didn't entertain the idea.  I can totally see +ABL using non-una-cuм at one time.  He was a French theologian - he entertained many opposing views, to analyze them, and because they are complex problems, he went back and forth on them, as his many sermons show.

    What's ridiculous is to say that +ABL DIDN'T analyze theological situations, or go back and forth on some MINOR issues, as almost every Trad Catholic did, in the crazy days of the 70s and 80s.

    We've all lived through Covid and the almost unlimited amount of propaganda/lies/conspiracy theories out there -- can anyone of us say we didn't entertain ANY false stories during the 3 years of this mayhem?  It would be impossible not to.


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Red Alert! Are the Sedevacantists the Only True Followers of Abp. Lefebvre?
    « Reply #173 on: January 20, 2024, 12:42:35 PM »
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  • Dear Stubborn,

    The names of a pope or a bishop in the Canon of the Mass are just like the feast days of saints; movable (people die, some become new saints).
    Canon XIII of the Seventh Session does not preclude the changes in the liturgy outside of the rites of the sacraments. One does not incur anathema by not putting the name of the pope or the bishop into the provided space. These men even in regular times can be out of Office ( the state of sedevacante). One does, however, incur anathema by putting the name of St. Joseph to an unchangeable Canon of the Mass. Pope John XXIII is under anathema of Trent and the wrath of Sts. Peter and Paul of Quo Primum.

    This is the problem with the 1962 Missal, and Father Ratzinger knew this. That is why he was not only OK with the 1962 liturgy, but in "Summorum Pontificuм" he made sure that the Mass of Pope St. Pius V does not return.
    Abp. Lefebvre imposed the 1962 liturgy on the SSPX. Did he ever say the new Mass? Did he "ordain" (God forbid!) a priest with a new rite of Order?

    By the way, your statement that Fr. Pierre Epiney, who is the primary source of information, is "repeating a lie" is a defamation of a very holy priest, unless you have specific proof to the contrary. Bishop Pierre Roy, ordained by Bp. Williamson and consecrated by Bp. de Silva, who was ordained to the Priesthood by Bishop Williamson in 2017, is a valid Roman Catholic Bishop. We owe him at least the benefit of the doubt that he would not disseminate disinformation.

    Casting doubts on the name, character, and reputation of true priests and bishops carries a heavy burden of proof for a lay Catholic.
    Texana, I can no more offer proof he is wrong or lying than I can prove +ABL said or never said the Mass non-una cuм. All I can do I did with my last post above. The fact is, it is altogether unreasonable to assume +ABL ever said the Mass non-una cuм - to una cuм faithful. OTOH, it is very easy for non-una cuм faithful to believe he did.

    The fact remains that the law of Quo Primum forbids omitting the name of the pope BECAUSE the Church has always taught that to omit his name is an act of schism. I'm not making this up, if you look it up you will find this to be true.

    Below is a quote from Ex Quo of Pope Benedict XIV almost 200 years after Trent....
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    "It is said in addition that no discussions on restoring unity were ever begun without the acceptance of the prior condition that the commemoration of the Roman pontiff should be included in the sacred liturgy, nor was a union which had been agreed on regarded as complete until the previous condition had actually been put into effect.
    The clear result of all this is that the Latin and Greek churches agree in recognizing and affirming that the commemoration implies a profession of due subjection to the Roman pontiff as head of the Church, and of a willingness to remain in the unity of the Church. On the other hand the omission of this commemoration signifies the  intention of steadfastly espousing schism."

    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Red Alert! Are the Sedevacantists the Only True Followers of Abp. Lefebvre?
    « Reply #174 on: January 20, 2024, 12:43:46 PM »
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  • No, it's ridiculous to say that +ABL didn't entertain the idea.  I can totally see +ABL using non-una-cuм at one time.  He was a French theologian - he entertained many opposing views, to analyze them, and because they are complex problems, he went back and forth on them, as his many sermons show.

    What's ridiculous is to say that +ABL DIDN'T analyze theological situations, or go back and forth on some MINOR issues, as almost every Trad Catholic did, in the crazy days of the 70s and 80s.

    We've all lived through Covid and the almost unlimited amount of propaganda/lies/conspiracy theories out there -- can anyone of us say we didn't entertain ANY false stories during the 3 years of this mayhem?  It would be impossible not to.

    Now, this is the objective reality of the matter.  It's not out of the realm of possibility.  +Lefebvre repeatedly stated that SVism is possible, and stated in the time leading up to Assisi that he and Bishop de Castro Mayer had "preferred to wait" for twenty years (seems like a bit of hyperbole there, as that would put it back to 1966) but that if Assisi happened, he may have to declare it "officially and solemnly".  So who knows?  And we don't know how he would have reacted to a Jorge Bergoglio, who is single-handedly causing a fair number of Conciliar priests got straight to sedevacantism.  Perhaps he would have gone Bennyvacantist.  Perhaps he would have taken the +Vigano route.  We don't know, and nearly 33 years later, our speculations are utterly meaningless.  We should let Archbishop Lefebvre rest in peace.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Red Alert! Are the Sedevacantists the Only True Followers of Abp. Lefebvre?
    « Reply #175 on: January 20, 2024, 12:47:45 PM »
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  • The fact is, it is altogether unreasonable to assume +ABL ever said the Mass non-una cuм - to una cuм faithful. OTOH, it is very easy for non-una cuм faithful to believe he did.

    Nobody's "assuming" anything.  In fact, the reason this is newsworthy is that pretty much everyone had assumed the opposite.  We're not dealing with assumptions, but with a report from Bishop Roy about what Father Epiney says Archbishop Lefebvre told him.  Again, irrelevant 33 years later, but this has nothing to do with "assuming" anything.


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Red Alert! Are the Sedevacantists the Only True Followers of Abp. Lefebvre?
    « Reply #176 on: January 20, 2024, 12:50:16 PM »
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  • No, it's ridiculous to say that +ABL didn't entertain the idea.  I can totally see +ABL using non-una-cuм at one time.  He was a French theologian - he entertained many opposing views, to analyze them, and because they are complex problems, he went back and forth on them, as his many sermons show.

    What's ridiculous is to say that +ABL DIDN'T analyze theological situations, or go back and forth on some MINOR issues, as almost every Trad Catholic did, in the crazy days of the 70s and 80s.

    We've all lived through Covid and the almost unlimited amount of propaganda/lies/conspiracy theories out there -- can anyone of us say we didn't entertain ANY false stories during the 3 years of this mayhem?  It would be impossible not to.
    Oh BS Pax. Now you're being ridiculous! ridiculous!

    The idea that he considered it at one time or another is not the issue - almost EVERYONE considered it at one point or another, in all likely hood even +ABL, but that's not the issue. Stick with the issue.

    Read the link, he explains what the prayer means. What it means is NOT what sedes want it to mean. It is because of what the prayer actually means that +ABL never had any reason to celebrate the Mass non-una cuм, which is why he never would have.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Red Alert! Are the Sedevacantists the Only True Followers of Abp. Lefebvre?
    « Reply #177 on: January 20, 2024, 12:51:49 PM »
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  • Nobody's "assuming" anything.  In fact, the reason this is newsworthy is that pretty much everyone had assumed the opposite.  We're not dealing with assumptions, but with a report from Bishop Roy about what Father Epiney says Archbishop Lefebvre told him.  Again, irrelevant 33 years later, but this has nothing to do with "assuming" anything.
    Yes, and you're doing so without any regard whatsoever to what +ABL believed and preached on the subject - which kills any and all legitimacy to the claim that he ever said the Mass non-una cuм.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Red Alert! Are the Sedevacantists the Only True Followers of Abp. Lefebvre?
    « Reply #178 on: January 20, 2024, 12:52:38 PM »
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    Your "stories" are utter nonsense.
    No, they're not stories.  Personal experience.  Fr Jenkins is not dogmatic in the sense that he won't permit opposing views, but he is dogmatic in the sense that he pushes the idea that non-Sedes/una cuм are heretical.  They have this odd logic that "If you're a sedevacantist, then going to an una cuм is wrong.  If one isn't a Sede, they aren't culpable."  It's similar false logic/situational ethics used towards the novus ordo.  "If you know the new mass is wrong, then you can't attend.  Many people don't know it's wrong."

    So, "on paper" they aren't dogmatic.  But in practice, they are teaching many, many Trads to believe/act as if 'una cuм' is heretical.  But these rules only apply "If they are Sedevacantist..."  And i've heard this argument from many who attend such chapels.

    It's a philosophical way to both deny the formal policy, while encouraging the bad ideals.  I'm not saying this is done deceitfully, nor subversively, but that it's just bad logic.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Red Alert! Are the Sedevacantists the Only True Followers of Abp. Lefebvre?
    « Reply #179 on: January 20, 2024, 12:55:52 PM »
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    The whole idea that +ABL was at anytime non-una cuм is altogether absurd to the Nth degree.
    Quote
    The idea that he considered it at one time or another is not the issue
    These 2 statement are contradictory.  That's all I was pointing out.


    I don't care if +ABL was (even for 2 seconds) a Sede.  We know he entertained the idea, as there are many, many sermons which say so.  To argue otherwise, is dumb.