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Author Topic: Praying for Deceased Non-Catholics  (Read 4643 times)

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Offline EWPJ

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Re: Praying for Deceased Non-Catholics
« Reply #15 on: March 16, 2023, 12:22:43 AM »
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  • That video needed to be made.  I'm tired of people who claim to be Catholic trying to get non-Catholics into Heaven or trying to find some cheap workaround to make it happen (ie Implicit "BOD".)  It all boils down to human respect and people putting friends/family etc. ahead of God.  People need to be reminded of this often (fewness of the saved, no salvation outside The Church) as it really sobers you up to reality and you realize how precious and serious your one life is and not to waste time seeking after The Lord.    


    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: Praying for Deceased Non-Catholics
    « Reply #16 on: March 16, 2023, 07:34:33 AM »
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  • That video needed to be made.  I'm tired of people who claim to be Catholic trying to get non-Catholics into Heaven or trying to find some cheap workaround to make it happen (ie Implicit "BOD".)  It all boils down to human respect and people putting friends/family etc. ahead of God.  People need to be reminded of this often (fewness of the saved, no salvation outside The Church) as it really sobers you up to reality and you realize how precious and serious your one life is and not to waste time seeking after The Lord.   
    Then you would be "tired" of an awful lot of Catholic Fathers of the Church (Ambrose and Augustine), Doctors of the Church (Thomas Aquinas, Bellarmine, Alphonsus), spiritual authors, moralists and jurists:

    I posted this excellent study from CMRI on one of the other threads:
    Baptism of Blood and of Desire – CMRI: Congregation of Mary Immaculate Queen

    They all understand the small number of the Elect, that's not the point. It is rather, this: God created every soul out of infinite love for only one reason: to share in His eternal beatitude. No one is excluded unless they choose to be. God didn't create anyone to condemn them, He desires our salvation infinitely more than we do. No one will be condemned except through their own fault. Everyone gets a chance, how could it be otherwise? Then think about the state of the Church and world today, and all the abandoned (but not by God) souls. Everyone who is saved is saved in and by the Church, but that does not mean they are manifestly members of the Church, just as many who are manifestly members are dead members and risk perishing...


    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Praying for Deceased Non-Catholics
    « Reply #17 on: March 16, 2023, 07:52:47 AM »
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  • Pray and sacrifice for your mother. Yes, as you say RIP (a prayer that qualifies me as a heretic for some). It may well be that God made her salvation contingent upon the prayers you would offer.

    You will note that with these papal pronouncements, if you change the emphasis and take the whole context, they do not forbid a Catholic to pray privately for a deceased non-Catholic.
    Can you show us an example of this (using a quote used in the video)?

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Praying for Deceased Non-Catholics
    « Reply #18 on: March 16, 2023, 10:14:24 AM »
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  • Can you show us an example of this (using a quote used in the video)?

    Pope Gregory XVI condemned the derelict bishop's recommendation that the faithful pray privately for the deceased heretic.  Did he directly condemn the faithful who would "secretly" do so?  Not directly, but indirectly he absolutely did, based on his general assertion that such prayers do harm to the Church's dogma that there's no salvation outside the Church.  Plenus is just reading into it what he wants to see there.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Praying for Deceased Non-Catholics
    « Reply #19 on: March 16, 2023, 10:16:31 AM »
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  • Jesus said hell was "eternal fire". I'm not aware of any kind of fire that is not extremely painful.

    St. Augustine had unbaptized infants enduring an "extremely mild" suffering in Hell.  Jesus was speaking of derelicts who would be condemned to Hell.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Praying for Deceased Non-Catholics
    « Reply #20 on: March 16, 2023, 10:20:01 AM »
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  • It is important to pray privately even for those who appear to have died outside the Church. Indeed, their salvation may depend upon it, since God being outside of time can 'anticipate' our prayers for their salvation.

    There are some, like the Dimonds, who repeatedly misrepresent Magisterial teaching. It has a semblance of truth, but often with a little twist imposing their own 'dogmatic' interpretation.

    I recommend this article by the Fatima Centre:

    Conclusion

    May the souls of all the faithful departed rest in peace. There is no salvation outside of the Catholic Church. But God alone knows the state of a soul at death. Thus, in our charity and love for all men – since we desire all to be saved (cf. 1 Tim 2:4) – we continue to pour forth private prayers for the conversion and salvation and mitigation of Purgatory for everyone, even those who in our eyes died outside the Church but who may have made a perfect Act of Contrition or who became Catholic by divine intervention right before the moment of death.


    May a Catholic Pray for the Soul of a Deceased Non-Catholic? | The Fatima Center

    There's absolutely nothing here that the Dimonds misinterpreted.  I'm the first one to call them out when I feel that they have misinterpreted something.  Unless one EXPLICITLY states that they're praying for their past conversion (let's be honest that nobody who says "I'm praying for [such and such a deceased heretic]." or "We should pray for Queen Elizabeth." ever makes it explicit), this does grave damage to EENS dogma, giving the impression that it's possible for heretics who die as heretics to be saved.

    Trads repeatedly make statements like, "I'm praying for [Limbaugh or Ginsburg or Elizabeth]." in public without any kind of qualifications whatsoever, thereby damaging EENS dogma, which is all but universally denied these days.  "I pray that Elizabeth converted before here death." would be acceptable.  "I pray for the respose of Elizabeth." or just "I pray for Elizabeth." or, worse, announcing from the pulpit not only that she could have been saved but that "she lived a good life" or offering Mass for her, those are unacceptable and are clearly condemned by Pope Gregory XVI for the same reason ... because they damage EENS dogma.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Praying for Deceased Non-Catholics
    « Reply #21 on: March 16, 2023, 10:25:33 AM »
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  • Then you would be "tired" of an awful lot of Catholic Fathers of the Church (Ambrose and Augustine), Doctors of the Church (Thomas Aquinas, Bellarmine, Alphonsus), spiritual authors, moralists and jurists:

    You're a liar and slanderer by attributing the opinion EWPJ rightly condemned and rejected as being those of the Church Fathers.  St. Robert Bellarmine explicitly restricted BoD to catechumens, and both Aquinas and Alphonsus limited its application to those who had the CATHOLIC FAITH but simply lacked Sacramental Baptism.  This thread isn't about BoD/BoB at all, but you constantly conflate this broad implicit "BoD" with the teaching of these Doctors so you can hide behind them and slanderously assert that they backed your broader view of it.  Elizabeth II was validly baptized.  So this has nothing to do with whether or not someone has received the Sacrament of Baptism.  EWPJ was denouncing this absurd redefined "BoD" (that evidently applies even to baptized individuals), which really means "salvation by sincerity".

    Elizabeth was a (baptized) heretic, who died outside the Church.  This has nothing to do with BoD.

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Praying for Deceased Non-Catholics
    « Reply #22 on: March 16, 2023, 11:36:33 AM »
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  • There's absolutely nothing here that the Dimonds misinterpreted.  I'm the first one to call them out when I feel that they have misinterpreted something.  Unless one EXPLICITLY states that they're praying for their past conversion (let's be honest that nobody who says "I'm praying for [such and such a deceased heretic]." or "We should pray for Queen Elizabeth." ever makes it explicit), this does grave damage to EENS dogma, giving the impression that it's possible for heretics who die as heretics to be saved.

    Trads repeatedly make statements like, "I'm praying for [Limbaugh or Ginsburg or Elizabeth]." in public without any kind of qualifications whatsoever, thereby damaging EENS dogma, which is all but universally denied these days.  "I pray that Elizabeth converted before here death." would be acceptable.  "I pray for the respose of Elizabeth." or just "I pray for Elizabeth." or, worse, announcing from the pulpit not only that she could have been saved but that "she lived a good life" or offering Mass for her, those are unacceptable and are clearly condemned by Pope Gregory XVI for the same reason ... because they damage EENS dogma.
    It always felt wrong to me (at least illogical) for any of these prayers (outside of praying for their past conversion ...which I don't do indefinitely). 


    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Praying for Deceased Non-Catholics
    « Reply #23 on: March 16, 2023, 12:46:45 PM »
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  • I will say that I was really disappointed to see that Brother Peter has returned to calling others heretics.  I think to call Trads heretics because of a possible misunderstanding/error on this topic is just wrong (although a few of them did go too far).

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Praying for Deceased Non-Catholics
    « Reply #24 on: March 16, 2023, 01:04:29 PM »
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  • You're a liar and slanderer by attributing the opinion EWPJ rightly condemned and rejected as being those of the Church Fathers.  St. Robert Bellarmine explicitly restricted BoD to catechumens, and both Aquinas and Alphonsus limited its application to those who had the CATHOLIC FAITH but simply lacked Sacramental Baptism.  This thread isn't about BoD/BoB at all, but you constantly conflate this broad implicit "BoD" with the teaching of these Doctors so you can hide behind them and slanderously assert that they backed your broader view of it.  Elizabeth II was validly baptized.  So this has nothing to do with whether or not someone has received the Sacrament of Baptism.  EWPJ was denouncing this absurd redefined "BoD" (that evidently applies even to baptized individuals), which really means "salvation by sincerity".

    Elizabeth was a (baptized) heretic, who died outside the Church.  This has nothing to do with BoD.
    To be fair, he wasn't the first one to bring up BOD.  Let's not continue down that path.

    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: Praying for Deceased Non-Catholics
    « Reply #25 on: March 16, 2023, 06:30:41 PM »
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  • To be fair, he wasn't the first one to bring up BOD.  Let's not continue down that path.
    Thank you, friend!


    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: Praying for Deceased Non-Catholics
    « Reply #26 on: March 16, 2023, 06:38:57 PM »
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  • It always felt wrong to me (at least illogical) for any of these prayers (outside of praying for their past conversion ...which I don't do indefinitely).
    I bet you would do it indefinitely, in private (which is the only point I defended and for which I have been so shamelessly attacked), if it were your Protestant father, or spouse, or dear friend? Like the case of poor old TheRealMcCoy that I responded to. There is nothing illogical. You cannot know the state of that soul as they entered into eternity. Are your future prayers of no avail to their salvation? Is there scandal given, undermining of the Church dogma, if your prayers are in private?

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Praying for Deceased Non-Catholics
    « Reply #27 on: March 16, 2023, 07:42:15 PM »
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  • I bet you would do it indefinitely, in private (which is the only point I defended and for which I have been so shamelessly attacked), if it were your Protestant father, or spouse, or dear friend? Like the case of poor old TheRealMcCoy that I responded to. There is nothing illogical. You cannot know the state of that soul as they entered into eternity. Are your future prayers of no avail to their salvation? Is there scandal given, undermining of the Church dogma, if your prayers are in private?
    Um. My father was Jєωιѕн.  So don't make assumptions.

    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: Praying for Deceased Non-Catholics
    « Reply #28 on: March 16, 2023, 10:14:09 PM »
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  • Um. My father was Jєωιѕн.  So don't make assumptions.
    Sorry for giving that impression, I wasn't making assumptions, my comments were meant more in a general manner to illustrate a point rather than being directed at you personally. May I ask, do you pray for your father? I will certainly say a prayer for him and remember him at Mass today.

    Offline EWPJ

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    Re: Praying for Deceased Non-Catholics
    « Reply #29 on: March 16, 2023, 10:37:25 PM »
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  • Thanks Lad for extrapolating on my point and for backing up the EENS Dogma and pointing out the misrepresentation of PV.  

    2V and PV my mentioning of Implicit "BOD" has almost everything to do with this topic so my mentioning it was not out of turn but even then I mentioned it in passing because this is often the way that many people try to get non-Catholics into Heaven.  It's either that or the hippie loving "everyone goes to Heaven eventually!" heresy and nonsense that was condemned in Antiquity.  But I'll refrain from mentioning it further and try to focus on the "meat" of the video presented.  

    My grandma and others in my family died outside The Church.  Do I just deny Dogma because I'd rather think they went to Heaven?  No.  Do I hold on to a false hope that they made it just because it would make me feel better to think that?  No.  Do I pray for people who visibly died outside The Church?  No.  Doing any of these things is trying to brush EENS off to the side and ignore it in place of a worldly people above God mindset.  I have to put aside human respect and sentiment in order to glorify God and obey Him through His Church.  Some deaths can be hard to get over, I understand, but pray for the strength to accept it without denying Dogma.  

    You brought up the correct point that those who go to Hell choose to go there.  Yes, and they do this by living a sinful life and living (and eventually dying) outside The Church. Catholics in a state of mortal sin when they die of course also go to Hell so I'm not saying all Catholics go to Heaven or anything like that.  

    I pray for the souls in Purgatory often as I know prayer will benefit them and those that are still breathing that are outside The Church so that they can convert before they die.