Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: What V2 was supposed to be  (Read 2161 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline DecemRationis

  • Supporter
Re: What V2 was supposed to be
« Reply #20 on: March 22, 2023, 11:14:17 AM »

If someone were to convince me of the prevailing view of EENS among Trads, that heretics, schismatics, and even infidels (Hindus in Tibet) can be saved, then I would be compelled to drop all theologial opposition to Vatican II (and the NOM would be a separate issue).  Really, all that would remain would be Religious Liberty, but I can make a compelling case for that from this new ecclesiology as well.

MAJOR:  People have a God-given right to save their souls.
MINOR:  People save their souls by doing what (they believe to be) God's will (even if it isn't).
CONCLUSION:  People have a God-given right to do what (they believe to be) God's will (even if it isn't).

This is the foundation of the "subjectivism" that Bishop Williamson rightly holds to be the fundamental error of Vatican II.

So you start with doctrinal subjectivism (with Wojtyla's religious indifferentism) and the next step is moral subjectivism (which is where we are with Bergoglio today) ... and all of Vatican II is clearly explained.

But people for some reason fail to see that EENS-denial is the "Rosetta Stone" to interpreting and unlocking all of Vatican II.

Some, such as Bishop Sanborn and the SVs, who are the most hostile to Father Feeney, have this mindset because they have overreacted to the R&R underselling of the Church's infallibility, by exaggerating and overselling it.  To them, a long rambling speculative (in his own language) allocution (aka speech) by Pius XII to a group of midwives might as well have been a dogmatic bull or solemn dogmatic definition issued with the full weight of papal authority to the Universal Church.  To them, Suprema Haec, which per Canon Law isn't even merely authentic Magisterium, as it never appeared in AAS, is on a par with the Council of Florence.  I've even heard SVs claim that any book with an imprimatur on it must be regarded as free of error, and therefore effectively infallible.  Of course, nearly all of them also reject the Pius XII Holy Week Rites as tainted with Modernism.  So they're rather selective about applying their principles.  To these SVs, "Feeneyites" are just as much as the V2 Modernists, and Father Feeney a heretic just as bad as a Hans Kung.  So they ironically cling to the same ecclesiology that they condemn as the chief heresy of Vatican II.  I find this utterly inexplicable.  And Karl Rahner was also at a loss to explain it, that those who opposed Vatican II failed to see the most revolutionary aspect of it.

Oh, the SVs have also extended infallibility to the Church's "theologians" per what I call "Cekadism".  Theologians have never been regarded as infallible, and are not part of the teaching Church.  At best, they can be considered a reflection of the "Believing Church".  For 700 years, they all got it wrong in following unanimously the erroneous opinion of St. Augustine regarding the fate of infants who die without the Sacrament of Baptismm.  And what of the fact that all the Church's theologians all got behind Vatican II (with the exception of one or two who can rightly be called "theologians", such as +Guerard des Lauriers).  What's a "theologian" anyway?  What criterial define a theologian?  At any rate, they nearly-unanimously backed Vatican II, and continued to do so until the present day.  So what happened to the infallibility of theologians suddenly?  Did they all suddenly defect from the Church one Tuesday morning in 1963 at 9:35 AM?  But just a few years prior, their works were effectively infallible?  When they were condemning Father Feeney they were infallible, but then when they embraced the theology of Vatican II they were not infallible, and not Catholic theologians anymore?  This is mind-boggling nonsense.  BTW, Msgr. Fenton, one of these pre-V2 theologians, explicitly rejects Cekadism in passages that I have cited before.

Great post, on which I comment on parts individually. 

Offline DecemRationis

  • Supporter
Re: What V2 was supposed to be
« Reply #21 on: March 22, 2023, 11:43:34 AM »


This is the foundation of the "subjectivism" that Bishop Williamson rightly holds to be the fundamental error of Vatican II.

So you start with doctrinal subjectivism (with Wojtyla's religious indifferentism) and the next step is moral subjectivism (which is where we are with Bergoglio today) ... and all of Vatican II is clearly explained.

But people for some reason fail to see that EENS-denial is the "Rosetta Stone" to interpreting and unlocking all of Vatican II.



Interesting thought on the connection between the doctrinal error and moral subjectivism. Very much worth reflecting deeper upon. 

I see the "Rosetta Stone" as to the depression of the God factor in the determination of who is saved, and the elevation of the human factor, man's consent and cooperation in salvation. After all, if all human beings have a free choice of salvation, it's just not "fair" that non-Catholics (who "believe" in Christ even), and then non-Christians (some of whom, e.g., Jews, Muslims, even "believe" in "God") have no shot at salvation - so goes the thinking. 

And that way of thinking makes some sense if, in fact, all men have a shot at salvation, since all men are not Catholic. 

So I back this up to a failure to hold to a traditional Catholic idea of predestination: whether you like it or not - and yes, the elect have free will and consent freely to grace and salvation - it is purely God's determination, divorced from any human action or deserving, that makes the difference between a saved man and a damned.

Bishop Sanborn gave a great sermon on this, the "Catholic doctrine of Predestination." He used the example of God walking through a ward of terminal patients, and stopping randomly at a bed saying, "this one," and going on down the ward and then saying, "that one," etc., and that, God's gratuitous and free choice, being the determiner of salvation. 

EENS is a dogma reflecting how and where God's choice resides: in Catholics, or more properly, in certain of those "inside" the Catholic Church. So EENS is related to Predestination. 

In light of Sanborn being right on Predestination, his liberality on EENS is even more confounding. 

We like being in control, and this makes us extremely uneasy. It's a dogma that is readily rejected using our human, imperfect sense of justice. 

I have a whole thread on this, with quotations from St. Augustine, St. Thomas, the annotations of the Haydock Bible, etc. : 

https://www.cathinfo.com/the-sacred-catholic-liturgy-chant-prayers/god's-salvific-will-to-save-'all-men'-and-the-death-of-unbaptized-infants/msg733125/#msg733125


Re: What V2 was supposed to be
« Reply #22 on: March 22, 2023, 11:52:39 AM »
Read the book "Prometheus" if possible. It does a very good to excellent job showing the foundations of the ecclesial revolution that was V2.

Offline DecemRationis

  • Supporter
Re: What V2 was supposed to be
« Reply #23 on: March 22, 2023, 11:55:30 AM »
Of course, St. Thomas, who held to the Catholic dogma of Predestination I mentioned above, also believed that all men - who reached the age of reason (but that's a separate and deep issue) - had a shot at salvation by their free will, and resolved the fact that not all men are Catholic or Christian by believing that, if the non-Christian truly sought God with a sincere heart, God would reveal the essentials of the Christian faith to him internally (for lack of a better word), or a priest or evangelist would reach him and instruct him on the faith.

That is the Thomistic solution preserving both EENS and the chance for all men to be saved.

Of course, the case of infants puts his solution to a severe test, since a baby born in non-Christian lands, who dies in infancy, is incapable of what Pius XII called an "act of love" for God. 

Re: What V2 was supposed to be
« Reply #24 on: March 22, 2023, 01:57:48 PM »
I find that pointing out all the corruption surrounding Vatican II only seems to have the effect of pointing to smoke, but no fire.

What of Roncalli/Pope Leo 23?  What can be said of that man?  His profile?