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Author Topic: Praying for Deceased Non-Catholics  (Read 4671 times)

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Offline praesul

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Re: Praying for Deceased Non-Catholics
« Reply #30 on: March 16, 2023, 11:25:46 PM »
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  • Very solid video from those who shall not be mentioned.  I used to be more open to offering prayers in private for departed non-Catholics, but the papal teachings cited here are pretty conclusive.  I still believe that one could pray for them "to have converted" before their deaths, as that does no harm to Catholic dogma, since it's clear in the manner of prayer that one believes that they could not have been saved without such a conversion.  Recall how the "Latin Mass Society" in England even dared to offer a Mass for the repose of the soul of Elizabeth (an illegitimate monarch based on the decree of Pope St. Pius V).

    Thank you for defending the One True Faith and the infallible Dogma that there is absolutely no salvation outside the Catholic Church. 

    Offline praesul

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    Re: Praying for Deceased Non-Catholics
    « Reply #31 on: March 16, 2023, 11:34:22 PM »
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  • Some deaths can be hard to get over, I understand, but pray for the strength to accept it without denying Dogma. 
    Exactly. 




    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Praying for Deceased Non-Catholics
    « Reply #32 on: March 17, 2023, 07:01:16 AM »
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  • Thanks Lad for extrapolating on my point and for backing up the EENS Dogma and pointing out the misrepresentation of PV. 

    2V and PV my mentioning of Implicit "BOD" has almost everything to do with this topic so my mentioning it was not out of turn but even then I mentioned it in passing because this is often the way that many people try to get non-Catholics into Heaven.  It's either that or the hippie loving "everyone goes to Heaven eventually!" heresy and nonsense that was condemned in Antiquity.  But I'll refrain from mentioning it further and try to focus on the "meat" of the video presented. 

    My grandma and others in my family died outside The Church.  Do I just deny Dogma because I'd rather think they went to Heaven?  No.  Do I hold on to a false hope that they made it just because it would make me feel better to think that?  No.  Do I pray for people who visibly died outside The Church?  No.  Doing any of these things is trying to brush EENS off to the side and ignore it in place of a worldly people above God mindset.  I have to put aside human respect and sentiment in order to glorify God and obey Him through His Church.  Some deaths can be hard to get over, I understand, but pray for the strength to accept it without denying Dogma. 

    You brought up the correct point that those who go to Hell choose to go there.  Yes, and they do this by living a sinful life and living (and eventually dying) outside The Church. Catholics in a state of mortal sin when they die of course also go to Hell so I'm not saying all Catholics go to Heaven or anything like that. 

    I pray for the souls in Purgatory often as I know prayer will benefit them and those that are still breathing that are outside The Church so that they can convert before they die. 
    I totally understand why you mentioned it.  And yes, it was in passing.  Unfortunately, mentioning BOD almost always turns into a debate on BOD and derails the thread....and then the thread ends up in the Feeneyism Ghetto. 

    As for the second bolded, this is typically what I do in my daily Rosary.  I do think God's time is not our time, so I can see praying for their conversion even after they die.  But, I tend to lean towards the fact that that person has already had his/her personal judgment before God.   

    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: Praying for Deceased Non-Catholics
    « Reply #33 on: March 17, 2023, 07:06:17 AM »
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  • Thanks for the reply EWPJ.
    Here are my thoughts. God bless.

     
    PV my mentioning of Implicit "BOD" has almost everything to do with this topic so my mentioning it was not out of turn but even then I mentioned it in passing because this is often the way that many people try to get non-Catholics into Heaven.  It's either that or the hippie loving "everyone goes to Heaven eventually!" heresy and nonsense that was condemned in Antiquity.  But I'll refrain from mentioning it further and try to focus on the "meat" of the video presented. I know an awful lot of people of that unfortunate persuasion, but never have I known BOD to be at the root of the evil. The usual pretext for such impious belief is a corruption of the true doctrine of God's mercy, rather than the true doctrine of BOD. We don't deny God's mercy just because these people abuse it to placate their consciences, nor should we deny BOD for such reason.

    My grandma and others in my family died outside The Church.  Sorry to hear that, it is a real cross, I know.  Do I just deny Dogma because I'd rather think they went to Heaven?  No. Good, I agree, do not deny dogma on an account. That = losing the faith! Do I hold on to a false hope that they made it just because it would make me feel better to think that? No. The hope is not false, but rather, faint. We do not know the state of any soul when they depart this life, excepting perhaps Judas ?Cain... While they appeared to die outside the Church, it is not absolutely certain. Do I pray for people who visibly died outside The Church?  No. You do well to make this distinction "visibly", but we do not see into the soul, so you ought to hope and pray for their salvation. Doing any of these things is trying to brush EENS off to the side and ignore it in place of a worldly people above God mindset. No, it in no way denies the dogma; what it denies is that someone who did not receive the sacrament of Baptism is necessarily outside the Church when they died. I have to put aside human respect and sentiment in order to glorify God and obey Him through His Church. Indeed! Some deaths can be hard to get over, I understand, but pray for the strength to accept it without denying Dogma. 
     
    You brought up the correct point that those who go to Hell choose to go there.  Yes, and they do this by living a sinful life and living (and eventually dying) outside The Church. Catholics in a state of mortal sin when they die of course also go to Hell so I'm not saying all Catholics go to Heaven or anything like that. What of the millions upon millions of savages, surely billions, who lived and died over the Centuries worlds away from civilization, let alone the Catholic Church. Did God create these souls for damnation? Is it not possible for the God who established the sacrament of Baptism as the ordinary means of justification to dispense with it in cases of invincible ignorance (for example) and use an extraordinary means of acting directly on the soul? Are so many learned and saintly men of the Church so mistaken?

    I pray for the souls in Purgatory often as I know prayer will benefit them and those that are still breathing that are outside The Church so that they can convert before they die. And how can you be certain that they did not?

    What is left of the Church if we go affirming that all these Fathers, Doctors, saints, spiritual authors, theologians and jurists did not understand such a simple concept? That our reading of the Council of Trent is right and theirs is wrong? Look at the names, and look at what they wrote: Ambrose, Augustine, Aquinas, Liguori, CIC 1917, Pope Innocent III, Pope St Pius V, Bellarmine, The Roman Martyrology, Pius IX, Tanquerey, Prummer, O'Connell, Herve, Vermeersch... add to that the Coucil of Trent itself as understood not only by me, but by these theologians, and the Catechism of the Council of Trent which is absolutely explicit. These aren't denying the dogma EENS, how utterly absurd that would be. They are, rather, telling you how to understand what it means to be in the Church, not in appearance only, but in reality. As St Robert Bellarmine tells us, it works the other way as well, some appear to be in, but they are not.



    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Praying for Deceased Non-Catholics
    « Reply #34 on: March 17, 2023, 07:13:41 AM »
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  • To be fair, he wasn't the first one to bring up BOD.  Let's not continue down that path.

    To be fair, the original reference to "BoD" was to an "implicit BoD" where non-Catholics can be Catholics, even baptized non-Catholics.  It was Plenus here who deliberate conflated this discussion of "implicit BoD" with the BoD taught by Bellarmine at el., a favorite tactic of the BoDers.  EWJP was clearly talking about claiming that non-Catholics can be saved, and not about actual Baptism of Desire.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Praying for Deceased Non-Catholics
    « Reply #35 on: March 17, 2023, 07:23:17 AM »
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  • I will say that I was really disappointed to see that Brother Peter has returned to calling others heretics.  I think to call Trads heretics because of a possible misunderstanding/error on this topic is just wrong (although a few of them did go too far).

    EENS-denial is heresy, as the dogma has been solemnly defined no fewer than 3 times, each time with increasing precision as various heretics tried to worm their way out of having to accept it.

    What isn't heresy is Baptism of Desire (as held by the Doctors), but this video wasn't about that subject.  Now, when people use the TERM "Baptism of Desire" to extend it in order to gut EENS dogma, they're not really promoting the teaching of varous Doctors.  For everyone who uses the term BoD, you'll find a different definition of it, a different understanding of what is is and how it works, under what conditions and works, and to whom it can apply.  In the end it's just a catch-all term used by anyone who doesn't want to accept EENS dogma, the only common denominator being that the Sacrament of Baptism is not necessary for salvation (which is heresy).  99% of BoDers are Pelagian heretics or else deny the dogma that the Sacraments are necessary for salvation.

    In any case, this video is not about BoD, as people like Elizabeth were in fact validly baptized, and the papal references were all to deceased heretics (who by defintion are baptized).

    Offline Cryptinox

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    Re: Praying for Deceased Non-Catholics
    « Reply #36 on: March 17, 2023, 07:34:14 AM »
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  • EENS-denial is heresy, as the dogma has been solemnly defined no fewer than 3 times, each time with increasing precision as various heretics tried to worm their way out of having to accept it.

    What isn't heresy is Baptism of Desire (as held by the Doctors), but this video wasn't about that subject.  Now, when people use the TERM "Baptism of Desire" to extend it in order to gut EENS dogma, they're not really promoting the teaching of varous Doctors.  For everyone who uses the term BoD, you'll find a different definition of it, a different understanding of what is is and how it works, under what conditions and works, and to whom it can apply.  In the end it's just a catch-all term used by anyone who doesn't want to accept EENS dogma, the only common denominator being that the Sacrament of Baptism is not necessary for salvation (which is heresy).  99% of BoDers are Pelagian heretics or else deny the dogma that the Sacraments are necessary for salvation.

    In any case, this video is not about BoD, as people like Elizabeth were in fact validly baptized, and the papal references were all to deceased heretics (who by defintion are baptized).
    I think the issue was more about calling those who encourage prayer for non Catholics heretics indiscriminately. 
    I recant many opinions on the crisis in the Church and moral theology that I have espoused on here from at least 2019-2021 don't take my postings from that time as well as 2022 possibly too seriously.

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Praying for Deceased Non-Catholics
    « Reply #37 on: March 17, 2023, 08:03:11 AM »
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  • I think the issue was more about calling those who encourage prayer for non Catholics heretics indiscriminately.
    Yes, that was my point.  I think many mentioned encouraged private prayer, not in Catholic rites. And he had been changing his tune a bit by saying others were in error, etc.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Praying for Deceased Non-Catholics
    « Reply #38 on: March 17, 2023, 08:11:10 AM »
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  • I think the issue was more about calling those who encourage prayer for non Catholics heretics indiscriminately.

    How was that indiscriminate?  Comments made by the individuals to whom he referred to as heretics clearly indicated that they believed heretics could be saved even without having converted.  That is in fact heresy, as the contrary was clearly taught dogmatically by the Council of Florence.

    Quote
    [The most Holy Roman Church] firmly believes, professes, and proclaims that those not living within the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics cannot become participants in eternal life, but will depart `into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels' (Matt. 25:41), unless before the end of life the same have been added to the flock; and that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is so strong that only to those remaining in it are the sacraments of the Church of benefit for salvation, and do fastings, almsgiving, and other functions of piety and exercises of Christian service produce eternal reward, and that no one, whatever almsgiving he has practiced, even if he has shed blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he has remained in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.


    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Praying for Deceased Non-Catholics
    « Reply #39 on: March 17, 2023, 08:14:41 AM »
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  • How was that indiscriminate?  Comments made by the individuals to whom he referred to as heretics clearly indicated that they believed heretics could be saved even without having converted.  That is in fact heresy, as the contrary was clearly taught dogmatically by the Council of Florence.
    No, there were people mentioned (Fr. Jenkins for example) who believe that private prayer after death was allowed by the Church. Didn't you think this was okay at one time?  Granted, there were others who literally said they were among the Faithful Departed which is a different story (Taylor Marshall), but some just said to pray. 

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Praying for Deceased Non-Catholics
    « Reply #40 on: March 17, 2023, 08:35:15 AM »
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  • No, there were people mentioned (Fr. Jenkins for example) who believe that private prayer after death was allowed by the Church. Didn't you think this was okay at one time?  Granted, there were others who literally said they were among the Faithful Departed which is a different story (Taylor Marshall), but some just said to pray.
    The EENS dogma is that they have no hope of salvation whatsoever if they die outside of the Church.

    Yet, there is nothing wrong with the bolded because *we* do not know what happens to souls at their judgement - that fact is true even for Catholics who die after having received the Last Rites and who actually are among the faithful departed. We simply do not know, but we know our prayers will not be wasted, certainly God will apply them to some other soul.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline TheRealMcCoy

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    Re: Praying for Deceased Non-Catholics
    « Reply #41 on: March 17, 2023, 10:53:01 AM »
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  • BOD doesn't apply to baptized Protestants, right? 

    Offline Cryptinox

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    Re: Praying for Deceased Non-Catholics
    « Reply #42 on: March 17, 2023, 11:07:03 AM »
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  • How was that indiscriminate?  Comments made by the individuals to whom he referred to as heretics clearly indicated that they believed heretics could be saved even without having converted.  That is in fact heresy, as the contrary was clearly taught dogmatically by the Council of Florence.
    The individuals could've possibly prayed with the condition that they don't know her state and still acknowledged in their mind she would be burning in hell forever if she died an Anglican. I do agree that one FSSP priest's comment is very problematic. One could still give the priest the benefit of the doubt and say "good life" meant materially good. 
    I recant many opinions on the crisis in the Church and moral theology that I have espoused on here from at least 2019-2021 don't take my postings from that time as well as 2022 possibly too seriously.

    Offline Cera

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    Re: Praying for Deceased Non-Catholics
    « Reply #43 on: March 17, 2023, 04:10:23 PM »
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  • Ah, I see ... quickly downthumbed by some heretic.  Papal teaching presented in the video is very clear.
    Dimond brothers??? Maybe that's why the person thumbed down. I would not trust any direct quote from them without checking it out for myself.
    Pray for the consecration of Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary

    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: Praying for Deceased Non-Catholics
    « Reply #44 on: March 17, 2023, 08:09:28 PM »
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  • BOD doesn't apply to baptized Protestants, right?
    Correct, if they are baptised, unless their baptism were invalid. Such is also the case for baptisms in the Conciliar Church. It is possible that they play with the form, maybe even matter, and that they do not have the correct intention. That is why such baptisms should be repeated conditionally unless certainty of validity can be ascertained. We are in different times from St Cyprian.

    If a Protestant were unbaptised, could he have baptism of desire? It is not the classical application, which is to those who are Catechumens, i.e. being instructed in the true Faith while awaiting baptism. While it would seem logical in theory, in practice it would likely be rare, but only God sees into hearts and knows the true desire of a soul.