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Poll

What does Cum Ex expect us to do about Francis?

Judge or insist that he is not pope?
0 (0%)
Decide if he is pope or not?
0 (0%)
Contradict him? (do not deviate from the faith with him)
1 (12.5%)
Acknowledge without any declaration being necessary that he deviated from the faith or was heretic before his election and therefore is no pope at all because his election was null and void.
5 (62.5%)
Other (please explain)
2 (25%)

Total Members Voted: 7

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Author Topic: Poll: cuм Ex - What did Pope Paul VI say we should do?  (Read 31696 times)

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Offline Johannes

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Poll: cuм Ex - What did Pope Paul VI say we should do?
« on: January 09, 2025, 11:18:15 AM »
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    • What did Pope Paul IV through cuм Ex expect us to do?




    cuм Ex Apostolatus Officio

    5. [By this Our Constitution,] moreover, [which is to remain valid in perpetuity, We] also [enact, determine, decree and define:] as follows concerning those who shall have presumed in any way knowingly to receive, defend, favour, believe or teach the teaching of those so apprehended, confessed or convicted:

    (i) they shall automatically incur sentence of excommunication;
    (ii) they shall be rendered infamous;

    (iii) they shall be excluded on pain of invalidity from any public or private office, deliberation, Synod, general or provincial Council and any conclave of Cardinals or other congregation of the faithful, and from any election or function of witness, so that they cannot take part in any of these by vote, in person, by writings, representative or by any agent;

    6. In addition, [by this Our Constitution, which is to remain valid in perpetuity We enact, determine, decree and define:] that if ever at any time it shall appear that any Bishop, even if he be acting as an Archbishop, Patriarch or Primate; or any Cardinal of the aforesaid Roman Church, or, as has already been mentioned, any legate, or even the Roman Pontiff, prior to his promotion or his elevation as Cardinal or Roman Pontiff, has deviated from the Catholic Faith or fallen into some heresy:

    (i) the promotion or elevation, even if it shall have been uncontested and by the unanimous assent of all the Cardinals, shall be null, void and worthless;

    (ii) it shall not be possible for it to acquire validity (nor for it to be said that it has thus acquired validity) through the acceptance of the office, of consecration, of subsequent authority, nor through possession of administration, nor through the putative enthronement of a Roman Pontiff, or Veneration, or obedience accorded to such by all, nor through the lapse of any period of time in the foregoing situation;

    (iii) it shall not be held as partially legitimate in any way;

    (iv) to any so promoted to be Bishops, or Archbishops, or Patriarchs, or Primates or elevated as Cardinals, or as Roman Pontiff, no authority shall have been granted, nor shall it be considered to have been so granted either in the spiritual or the temporal domain;

    (v) each and all of their words, deeds, actions and enactments, howsoever made, and anything whatsoever to which these may give rise, shall be without force and shall grant no stability whatsoever nor any right to anyone;

    (vi) those thus promoted or elevated shall be deprived automatically, and without need for any further declaration, of all dignity, position, honour, title, authority, office and power.


    Full text: https://dailycatholic.org/cuмexapo.htm
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Poll: cuм Ex - What did Pope Paul VI say we should do?
    « Reply #1 on: January 09, 2025, 12:24:06 PM »
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    • Why don't you start another thread with a poll asking why is it that you avoid giving a clear answer to a clear question?

    What did he say we are to do about a pope who deviates from the faith?

    You missed this in the OP.....

    1.In assessing Our duty and the situation now prevailing, We have been weighed upon by the thought that a matter of this kind [i.e. error in respect of the Faith] is so grave and so dangerous that the Roman Pontiff,who is the representative upon earth of God and our God and Lord Jesus Christ, who holds the fullness of power over peoples and kingdoms, who may judge all and be judged by none in this world, may nonetheless be contradicted if he be found to have deviated from the Faith. Remembering also that, where danger is greater, it must more fully and more diligently be counteracted. - Pope Paul IV, cuм ex Apostolatus Officio 1559

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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Poll: cuм Ex - What did Pope Paul VI say we should do?
    « Reply #2 on: January 09, 2025, 01:16:50 PM »
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    • You go a mile to get a block, then get lost on the journey.

    I know well what the pope teaches in cuм ex, yet there is one very clear, very specific thing he tells us to do about a pope who deviates from the faith, what does he tell us to do? It's not in the select quotes from the rest of cuм ex you keep posting, he does not tell us to do anything in your quotes so why do you keep posting those quotes? 

    I will post again the only place he tells us what to do in all of cuм ex, do you see it?

    1.In assessing Our duty and the situation now prevailing, We have been weighed upon by the thought that a matter of this kind [i.e. error in respect of the Faith] is so grave and so dangerous that the Roman Pontiff,who is the representative upon earth of God and our God and Lord Jesus Christ, who holds the fullness of power over peoples and kingdoms, who may judge all and be judged by none in this world, may nonetheless be contradicted if he be found to have deviated from the Faith. Remembering also that, where danger is greater, it must more fully and more diligently be counteracted. - Pope Paul IV, cuм ex Apostolatus Officio 1559
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Poll: cuм Ex - What did Pope Paul VI say we should do?
    « Reply #3 on: January 09, 2025, 02:10:56 PM »
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    • Quote
    What did Pope Paul IV through cuм Ex expect us to do?
    cuм Ex is an official docuмent of the church, directed towards the clergy and those with authority in the Vatican.  "They" are the ones who have a duty to call out Francis, as have all Traditional clergy, including those still alive, such as +Williamson, +Vigano, +Sanborn, etc, etc.


    "We the laity" are expected to do nothing in regards to the pope, except to ignore him and continue on worshipping God in the orthodox/Traditional rites.  "We the laity" have no authority to do anything, except to save our own souls and those of our family/friends.
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Poll: cuм Ex - What did Pope Paul VI say we should do?
    « Reply #4 on: January 09, 2025, 02:37:56 PM »
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    • Quote from: Johannes on January 09, 2025, 01:21:52 PM
    cuм ex tells us Francis was never the pope to begin with due to his preexisting heresies and the subsequent loss of membership in the Church that follows heresy - so how you read the above portion about a pope "deviating from the faith" is irrelevant.
    Wrong. You should realize that your dishonesty is on display for all to see. How I read the above portion is as it is written, to actually mean what the pope actually told us what we are to do about a pope who deviates from the faith.

    How you read it is nearly word for word contrary to what he teaches. Somehow you are fine with this. 

     
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Seraphina

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    Re: Poll: cuм Ex - What did Pope Paul VI say we should do?
    « Reply #5 on: January 09, 2025, 02:41:43 PM »
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    • I have no idea.
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: Poll: cuм Ex - What did Pope Paul VI say we should do?
    « Reply #6 on: January 09, 2025, 02:49:29 PM »
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    • Johannes,

    Are you the pope? 
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Meg

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    Re: Poll: cuм Ex - What did Pope Paul VI say we should do?
    « Reply #7 on: January 09, 2025, 02:55:34 PM »
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    • Quote from: Johannes on January 09, 2025, 02:51:44 PM


    There are, I believe, 2 or 3 claimants to the papacy (sedevacantist) at this time. Are you one of them? 
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Poll: cuм Ex - What did Pope Paul VI say we should do?
    « Reply #8 on: January 09, 2025, 02:56:07 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on January 09, 2025, 02:10:56 PM
    cuм Ex is an official docuмent of the church, directed towards the clergy and those with authority in the Vatican.  "They" are the ones who have a duty to call out Francis, as have all Traditional clergy, including those still alive, such as +Williamson, +Vigano, +Sanborn, etc, etc.


    "We the laity" are expected to do nothing in regards to the pope, except to ignore him and continue on worshipping God in the orthodox/Traditional rites.  "We the laity" have no authority to do anything, except to save our own souls and those of our family/friends.
    "They" are told by the pope that even "they" may not judge the pope. The pope in cuм ex is telling to "them," warning "them" (all those mentioned) of their fate if they are so much as ever having been suspect of ever deviating from the faith, note that he never mentions "suspected by whom."

    According to cuм ex, +Vigano, +Sanborn and every other cleric that has ever had anything whatsoever to do with the NO, are ALL suspect and have all deviated from the faith prior to finding tradition. As such.... 

    "...They shall never at any time be able to be restored, returned, reinstated or rehabilitated......they shall have been sentenced to sequestration in any Monastery or other religious house in order to perform perpetual penance upon the bread of sorrow and the water of affliction;

    that all such individuals also shall be held, treated and reputed as such by everyone, of whatsoever status, grade, order, condition or pre-eminence he may be and whatsoever excellence may be his, ...and as such must be avoided and must be deprived of the sympathy of all natural kindness..."
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Poll: cuм Ex - What did Pope Paul VI say we should do?
    « Reply #9 on: January 09, 2025, 02:58:23 PM »
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    • Quote from: Seraphina on January 09, 2025, 02:41:43 PM
    I have no idea.
    For you Seraphina:
    1.In assessing Our duty and the situation now prevailing, We have been weighed upon by the thought that a matter of this kind [i.e. error in respect of the Faith] is so grave and so dangerous that the Roman Pontiff,who is the representative upon earth of God and our God and Lord Jesus Christ, who holds the fullness of power over peoples and kingdoms, who may judge all and be judged by none in this world, may nonetheless be contradicted if he be found to have deviated from the Faith. Remembering also that, where danger is greater, it must more fully and more diligently be counteracted. - Pope Paul IV, cuм ex Apostolatus Officio 1559
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Poll: cuм Ex - What did Pope Paul VI say we should do?
    « Reply #10 on: January 09, 2025, 03:03:44 PM »
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    • Quote from: Johannes on January 09, 2025, 02:47:14 PM
    You are so blind it is truly amazing to witness.

    HE HAS TO BE THE POPE IN THE 1ST PLACE in order to "contradict him for deviating from the faith".

    You have destroyed the entire Bull to cling to a single sentence that you NEED to mean what you think it does at the exclusion of everything else so that you can continuing believing and acting as you do.

    Francis was NEVER POPE TO BEGIN WITH ACCORDING TO THE BULL!

    So, your misused quote that ignores the entirety of cuм Ex is 100% worthless. :laugh2:

    But I suppose your blindness in this regard is to be expected... What is even more amazing though is that you actually thought hashing this out on the other thread would make sense...
    He was elected by all of the Cardinals, they accepted him as pope and we must also. You must first do what the enemies could not do - destroy the legal structure and hierarchy of the Church - you have to start there, that has to be your starting and ending point in order to believe he was never elected as pope in the first place.

    This is proof positive that you are altogether wrong.
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Gray2023

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    Re: Poll: cuм Ex - What did Pope Paul VI say we should do?
    « Reply #11 on: January 09, 2025, 03:21:57 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on January 09, 2025, 02:10:56 PM
    cuм Ex is an official docuмent of the church, directed towards the clergy and those with authority in the Vatican.  "They" are the ones who have a duty to call out Francis, as have all Traditional clergy, including those still alive, such as +Williamson, +Vigano, +Sanborn, etc, etc.


    "We the laity" are expected to do nothing in regards to the pope, except to ignore him and continue on worshipping God in the orthodox/Traditional rites.  "We the laity" have no authority to do anything, except to save our own souls and those of our family/friends.
    This^^
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    1 Corinthians: Chapter 13 "4 Charity is patient, is kind: charity envieth not, dealeth not perversely; is not puffed up; 5 Is not ambitious, seeketh not her own, is not provoked to anger, thinketh no evil;"

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Poll: cuм Ex - What did Pope Paul VI say we should do?
    « Reply #12 on: January 09, 2025, 03:29:53 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on January 09, 2025, 02:10:56 PM
    cuм Ex is an official docuмent of the church, directed towards the clergy and those with authority in the Vatican.  "They" are the ones who have a duty to call out Francis, as have all Traditional clergy, including those still alive, such as +Williamson, +Vigano, +Sanborn, etc, etc.


    "We the laity" are expected to do nothing in regards to the pope, except to ignore him and continue on worshipping God in the orthodox/Traditional rites.  "We the laity" have no authority to do anything, except to save our own souls and those of our family/friends.

    Well, one thing Cuм Ex clearly does, it gives a layman authority to withdraw obedience, etc.:



    Quote
    7. Finally, [by this Our Constitution, which is to remain valid in perpetuity, We] also [enact, determine, define and decree]:- that any and all persons who would have been subject to those thus promoted or elevated if they had not previously deviated from the Faith, become heretics, incurred schism or provoked or committed any or all of these, be they members of anysoever of the following categories:


    (i) the clergy, secular and religious;

    (ii) the laity;

    (iii) the Cardinals, even those who shall have taken part in the election of this very Pontiff previously deviating from the Faith or heretical or schismatical, or shall otherwise have consented and vouchsafed obedience to him and shall have venerated him;

    (iv) Castellans, Prefects, Captains and Officials, even of Our Beloved City and of the entire Ecclesiastical State, even if they shall be obliged and beholden to those thus promoted or elevated by homage, oath or security; shall be permitted at any time to withdraw with impunity from obedience and devotion to those thus promoted or elevated and to avoid them as warlocks, heathens, publicans, and heresiarchs (the same subject persons, nevertheless, remaining bound by the duty of fidelity and obedience to any future Bishops, Archbishops, Patriarchs, Primates, Cardinals and Roman Pontiff canonically entering).



    For my part, I wouldn't call withdrawing obedience, avoiding as a warlock and heresiarch, etc. as "doing nothing." That's lawful rebellion.
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    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline Seraphina

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    Re: Poll: cuм Ex - What did Pope Paul VI say we should do?
    « Reply #13 on: January 09, 2025, 03:45:40 PM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on January 09, 2025, 02:58:23 PM
    For you Seraphina:
    1.In assessing Our duty and the situation now prevailing, We have been weighed upon by the thought that a matter of this kind [i.e. error in respect of the Faith] is so grave and so dangerous that the Roman Pontiff,who is the representative upon earth of God and our God and Lord Jesus Christ, who holds the fullness of power over peoples and kingdoms, who may judge all and be judged by none in this world, may nonetheless be contradicted if he be found to have deviated from the Faith. Remembering also that, where danger is greater, it must more fully and more diligently be counteracted. - Pope Paul IV, cuм ex Apostolatus Officio 1559
    Did you read the question? It’s about Pope Paul VI, (6th), not IV, (4th). 
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: Poll: cuм Ex - What did Pope Paul VI say we should do?
    « Reply #14 on: January 09, 2025, 04:41:11 PM »
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    • Quote from: Seraphina on January 09, 2025, 03:45:40 PM
    Did you read the question? It’s about Pope Paul VI, (6th), not IV, (4th).

    The heading of the OP says Pope Paul IV, but the heading of the thread says Pope Paul VI. Looks like the person who posted this thread was a little confused, or maybe his handlers weren't paying attention.
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29
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