What did Pope Paul IV through cuм Ex expect us to do?cuм Ex is an official docuмent of the church, directed towards the clergy and those with authority in the Vatican. "They" are the ones who have a duty to call out Francis, as have all Traditional clergy, including those still alive, such as +Williamson, +Vigano, +Sanborn, etc, etc.
cuм ex tells us Francis was never the pope to begin with due to his preexisting heresies and the subsequent loss of membership in the Church that follows heresy - so how you read the above portion about a pope "deviating from the faith" is irrelevant.Wrong. You should realize that your dishonesty is on display for all to see. How I read the above portion is as it is written, to actually mean what the pope actually told us what we are to do about a pope who deviates from the faith.
(https://i.imgur.com/9uL9akL.jpeg)
cuм Ex is an official docuмent of the church, directed towards the clergy and those with authority in the Vatican. "They" are the ones who have a duty to call out Francis, as have all Traditional clergy, including those still alive, such as +Williamson, +Vigano, +Sanborn, etc, etc."They" are told by the pope that even "they" may not judge the pope. The pope in cuм ex is telling to "them," warning "them" (all those mentioned) of their fate if they are so much as ever having been suspect of ever deviating from the faith, note that he never mentions "suspected by whom."
"We the laity" are expected to do nothing in regards to the pope, except to ignore him and continue on worshipping God in the orthodox/Traditional rites. "We the laity" have no authority to do anything, except to save our own souls and those of our family/friends.
I have no idea.For you Seraphina:
You are so blind it is truly amazing to witness.He was elected by all of the Cardinals, they accepted him as pope and we must also. You must first do what the enemies could not do - destroy the legal structure and hierarchy of the Church - you have to start there, that has to be your starting and ending point in order to believe he was never elected as pope in the first place.
HE HAS TO BE THE POPE IN THE 1ST PLACE in order to "contradict him for deviating from the faith".
You have destroyed the entire Bull to cling to a single sentence that you NEED to mean what you think it does at the exclusion of everything else so that you can continuing believing and acting as you do.
Francis was NEVER POPE TO BEGIN WITH ACCORDING TO THE BULL!
So, your misused quote that ignores the entirety of cuм Ex is 100% worthless. :laugh2:
But I suppose your blindness in this regard is to be expected... What is even more amazing though is that you actually thought hashing this out on the other thread would make sense...
cuм Ex is an official docuмent of the church, directed towards the clergy and those with authority in the Vatican. "They" are the ones who have a duty to call out Francis, as have all Traditional clergy, including those still alive, such as +Williamson, +Vigano, +Sanborn, etc, etc.This^^
"We the laity" are expected to do nothing in regards to the pope, except to ignore him and continue on worshipping God in the orthodox/Traditional rites. "We the laity" have no authority to do anything, except to save our own souls and those of our family/friends.
cuм Ex is an official docuмent of the church, directed towards the clergy and those with authority in the Vatican. "They" are the ones who have a duty to call out Francis, as have all Traditional clergy, including those still alive, such as +Williamson, +Vigano, +Sanborn, etc, etc.
"We the laity" are expected to do nothing in regards to the pope, except to ignore him and continue on worshipping God in the orthodox/Traditional rites. "We the laity" have no authority to do anything, except to save our own souls and those of our family/friends.
7. Finally, [by this Our Constitution, which is to remain valid in perpetuity, We] also [enact, determine, define and decree]:- that any and all persons who would have been subject to those thus promoted or elevated if they had not previously deviated from the Faith, become heretics, incurred schism or provoked or committed any or all of these, be they members of anysoever of the following categories:
(i) the clergy, secular and religious;
(ii) the laity;
(iii) the Cardinals, even those who shall have taken part in the election of this very Pontiff previously deviating from the Faith or heretical or schismatical, or shall otherwise have consented and vouchsafed obedience to him and shall have venerated him;
(iv) Castellans, Prefects, Captains and Officials, even of Our Beloved City and of the entire Ecclesiastical State, even if they shall be obliged and beholden to those thus promoted or elevated by homage, oath or security; shall be permitted at any time to withdraw with impunity from obedience and devotion to those thus promoted or elevated and to avoid them as warlocks, heathens, publicans, and heresiarchs (the same subject persons, nevertheless, remaining bound by the duty of fidelity and obedience to any future Bishops, Archbishops, Patriarchs, Primates, Cardinals and Roman Pontiff canonically entering).
For you Seraphina:Did you read the question? It’s about Pope Paul VI, (6th), not IV, (4th).
1.In assessing Our duty and the situation now prevailing, We have been weighed upon by the thought that a matter of this kind [i.e. error in respect of the Faith] is so grave and so dangerous that the Roman Pontiff,who is the representative upon earth of God and our God and Lord Jesus Christ, who holds the fullness of power over peoples and kingdoms, who may judge all and be judged by none in this world, may nonetheless be contradicted if he be found to have deviated from the Faith. Remembering also that, where danger is greater, it must more fully and more diligently be counteracted. - Pope Paul IV, cuм ex Apostolatus Officio 1559
Did you read the question? It’s about Pope Paul VI, (6th), not IV, (4th).
If you have clearly defined Church teaching on these points, then post it. Otherwise, what are you trying to achieve, other than to create confusion and lead people to your sedevacantist views?
Do you believe that heretics are members of the Church? (is this of Divine Law or Ecclesial?)
What happens to one's membership for committing the sin of heresy? (same ^^)
Are public heretics presumed guilty until proven innocent? (what does Canon Law say?)
You can twist yourselves into knots with all the Church law, definitions, and legalisms you want,So you’re setting your opinion above canon law? And even above a well-respected Sede Bishop such as +Sanborn?
You know what it means in the context I just gave. You can twist yourselves into knots with all the Church law, definitions, and legalisms you want, that isn't my M.O. Heretics don't belong to the Church - every basic catechism teaches this Catholic truth. The sin of heresy "severs one from the Body, by its very nature" no one needed Pope Pius XII to tell us that - Catholics always knew this.Your M.O., Johannes, as you put it, seems rather to set yourself up as pope and ignore all the Church law and definitions??? Just ignore the entire theological debate and choose the conclusion of your liking and state it as dogma?
Did you read the question? It’s about Pope Paul VI, (6th), not IV, (4th).I didn't even notice that, my bad, but it's just a typo on his part.
Well, one thing Cuм Ex clearly does, it gives a layman authority to withdraw obedience, etc.:
"7. Finally, [by this Our Constitution, which is to remain valid in perpetuity, We] also [enact, determine, define and decree]:- that any and all persons who would have been subject to those thus promoted or elevated if they had not previously deviated from the Faith, become heretics, incurred schism or provoked or committed any or all of these, be they members of anysoever of the following categories:
(i) the clergy, secular and religious;
(ii) the laity;
(iii) the Cardinals, even those who shall have taken part in the election of this very Pontiff previously deviating from the Faith or heretical or schismatical, or shall otherwise have consented and vouchsafed obedience to him and shall have venerated him;
(iv) Castellans, Prefects, Captains and Officials, even of Our Beloved City and of the entire Ecclesiastical State, even if they shall be obliged and beholden to those thus promoted or elevated by homage, oath or security; shall be permitted at any time to withdraw with impunity from obedience and devotion to those thus promoted or elevated and to avoid them as warlocks, heathens, publicans, and heresiarchs (the same subject persons, nevertheless, remaining bound by the duty of fidelity and obedience to any future Bishops, Archbishops, Patriarchs, Primates, Cardinals and Roman Pontiff canonically entering)."
For my part, I wouldn't call withdrawing obedience, avoiding as a warlock and heresiarch, etc. as "doing nothing." That's lawful rebellion.
Right.Here again, you are ignoring the explicit instruction that DR posted from the pope promulgating in his official capacity as supreme head of the Church specifically to the laity, that we are not to obey those superiors who have deviated from the faith, not even the pope.
(musingly) How does one submit to the Roman Pontiff - without which it is impossible to be saved - when they are in rebellion towards the Roman Pontiff? :confused: