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Author Topic: New St. Alphonsus Quotes on Implicit BOD  (Read 9959 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: New St. Alphonsus Quotes on Implicit BOD
« Reply #95 on: March 19, 2021, 12:24:28 PM »
Here's an interesting article from Avery Dulles:
https://www.firstthings.com/article/2008/02/001-who-can-be-saved-8

Note this passage:
Quote
The Dominican Melchior Cano argued that these populations [invincibly ignorant infidels] were in a situation no different from that of the pre-Christian pagans praised by Justin and others. They could be justified in this life (but not saved in the life to come) by implicit faith in the Christian mysteries.

Again the distinction between justification and salvation.

As Dulles points out, a lot of these guys were all over the proverbial map on this issue.  Yet NOT ONCE has anyone offered a THEOLOGICAL PROOF for this speculation, that invincibly ignorant infidels can be saved.  They were motivated by the emotional consideration of those natives who were discovered in the New World and finding it difficult to believe that they were lost.  So they came up with various explanations that would allow them to be justified and even (for some of them) saved.

That is not Catholic theology and is nothing but speculation.
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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: New St. Alphonsus Quotes on Implicit BOD
« Reply #96 on: March 20, 2021, 07:31:51 AM »
Quote from: XavierSem on March 19, 2021, 11:03:46 PM
Let's look at what St. Alphonsus believed. Many Thomists believe St. Alphonsus taught (1) a person can be justified by explicit faith in God alone, through Perfect Love of God; but (2) a person is saved only after coming to explicit knowledge of Christ, and the Triune God.

According to De Lugo, this distinction between justification and salvation is common among the theologians of that day, and not invented by Father Feeney.

I, on the other hand, hold that ....

1) explicit faith is necessary even for justification

AND

2) both explicit faith and the Sacrament of Baptism are necessary for salvation

Every theological source that I have ever seen (including the infamous Baius) limits the possibility of SALVATION without the Sacrament of Baptism to CATECHUMENS ALONE, to those with explicit faith.  I was just reading Melchior Cano (in Latin) and he said the same thing.

I follow the teaching of St. Ambrose that martyr catechumens can be WASHED but not CROWNED, aka justified but not saved.
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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: New St. Alphonsus Quotes on Implicit BOD
« Reply #97 on: March 20, 2021, 07:41:51 AM »
Another proof that "Baptism of Desire" is not defined anywhere.

These theologians were all over the map where it came to the permutations between salvation and justification.

I hold that there is a baptism of desire (I refuse to capitalize it going forward because it is NOT the Sacrament, nor a substituted for the Sacrament, as a lot of Modern sources wrongly state).  It merely can supply to varying degrees (baptism of blood perfectly and baptism of desire from imperfectly to perfectly) the ONE effect of the Sacrament, namely, the remission of sins, the "washing" spoken of by St. Ambrose.

You'll notice, given this distinction, that Trent, in the famous "desire thereof" passage, clearly speaks of JUSTIFICATION and not salvation, while elsewhere stating that the Sacrament of Baptism of necessary for SALVATION.
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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: New St. Alphonsus Quotes on Implicit BOD
« Reply #98 on: March 20, 2021, 07:45:55 AM »
So, Xavier, in this last post you are acknowledging the distinction between justification and salvation held by many theologians.

How can you, then, adduce Trent as a proof text for the possibility of salvation by desire when Trent CLEARLY uses the term "justification"?  Or were the Fathers at Trent stupid and unacquainted with the distinction between justification and salvation?
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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: New St. Alphonsus Quotes on Implicit BOD
« Reply #99 on: March 20, 2021, 07:52:37 AM »
Quote from: XavierSem on March 19, 2021, 11:03:46 PM
Let's look at what St. Alphonsus believed. Many Thomists believe St. Alphonsus taught (1) a person can be justified by explicit faith in God alone, through Perfect Love of God; but (2) a person is saved only after coming to explicit knowledge of Christ, and the Triune God.

So what are you arguing here?  If you believe, as they did, that implicit faith can lead to justification but not salvation, then what's your point?  I don't have a huge problem with that even though I disagree, and neither does Father Feeney.  Father Feeney, and many of us, hold that the Sacrament of Baptism is necessary for salvation even if not for justification.  I hold that implicit faith of some kind might be sufficient for some degree of justification (remission of sin) but not a complete remission of sin.

I can cite a dozen quotes from the Magisterium that the Sacrament of Baptism is necessary for SALVATION.  That famous passage in Trent clearly uses the term JUSTIFICATION.
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