Author Topic: New St. Alphonsus Quotes on Implicit BOD (Read 8063 times)

Ladislaus · « **Reply #60 on:** March 17, 2021, 09:57:14 AM »

https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02258b.htm

Quote

But even if all these essential requisites for constituting the sacrament be present, there can still be an obstacle put in the way of the sacramental grace, inasmuch as an adult might receive baptism with improper motives or without real detestation for sin. In that case the person would indeed be validly baptized, but he would not participate in the sacramental grace. If, however, at a later time he made amends for the past, the obstacle would be removed and he would obtain the grace which he had failed to receive when the sacrament was conferred upon him. In such a case the sacrament is said to revive and there could be no question of rebaptism.

Durango77 · « **Reply #61 on:** March 17, 2021, 12:49:36 PM »

Quote from: Ladislaus on March 17, 2021, 09:25:08 AM

No. He would receive the Sacramental character, but would not be in a state of justification. BOTH are required for salvation (in addition to the grace of final perseverance).

That's another reason to read Trent's teaching as meaning BOTH. If you receive the LAVER without the VOTUM, then you are not in a state of justification. And the corollary to this is that if you have the VOTUM without the LAVER, then you are not in a state of justification.

There's no way this can be read as a teaching on BoD. Where is any mention of BoB, if that's the intent? If Trent had been teaching here the "Three Baptisms," then there would certainly have been a mention of BoB. That is clearly NOT the intent of Trent's teaching here.

Why does it say OR then? Or meanss the same thing as and now?

Ladislaus · « **Reply #62 on:** March 17, 2021, 02:50:15 PM »

Quote from: Durango77 on March 17, 2021, 12:49:36 PM

Why does it say OR then? Or meanss the same thing as and now?

Do we really have to go through this again?

"There can be no wedding without the bride or the groom?"

Is it possible to have a wedding with either the bride or the groom present?

Last Tradhican · « **Reply #63 on:** March 17, 2021, 03:03:18 PM »

Quote from: Durango77 on March 17, 2021, 12:49:36 PM

Why does it say OR then? Or means the same thing as and now?

Dogmas are the final word from the Holy Ghost, being ex cathedra definitions, they must be taken literally, unequivocally, and absolutely. Hence, to attempt to modify or qualify them in any way is to deny them. The doctrine says clearly that only Catholics go to Heaven; all others are lost, that is, they do not go to Heaven, but to Hell. All who are inclined to dispute this dogma should have the good sense to realize that if this is not what the words of the definitions mean, the Church would never have promulgated such a position. To give any other meaning to these words is to portray the Church as foolish and ridiculous.

The pronouncements indicate that, by divine decree, those only will be saved who are members of the Church when they die. This membership must be formal, real, explicit, and, in those of the (mental) age of reason, deliberate. There is no such thing as "potential" membership in the Church, or "implicit" membership, or "quasi-membership," or "invisible membership," or anything of the kind. Neither can those who are catechumens, that is, those who are preparing to enter the Church, be considered members. Let the reader accept the reasonable fact that the Pontiffs who pronounced these decrees were perfectly literate and fully cognizant of what they were saying. If there were any need to soften or qualify their meanings, they were quite capable of doing so.

Here are excerpts from some dogmas on EENS and how they are responded to (in red) by those who teach that Jews, Mohamedans, Hindus, Buddhists, any person in all false religions, can be saved by their belief in a god the rewards. Enjoy!

Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, “Cantate Domino,” 1441, ex cathedra:

“The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire ..and that nobody can be saved, … even if he has shed blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.” (pagans and Jews can be saved by their belief in a god that rewards, thus they are in the Church. They can’t be saved even if they shed their blood for Christ, but they can be saved by a belief in a god that rewards.)

Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, Constitution 1, 1215, ex cathedra: “There is indeed one universal Church of the faithful, outside of which nobody at all is saved, …(Persons in all false religions can be part of the faithful by their belief in a god that rewards)

Pope Boniface VIII, Unam Sanctam, Nov. 18, 1302, ex cathedra:

“… this Church outside of which there is no salvation nor remission of sin… Furthermore, … every human creature that they by absolute necessity for salvation are entirely subject to the Roman Pontiff.” (Persons in all false religions by their belief in a god that rewards are inside the Church, so they can have remission of sin. They do not have to be subject to the Roman Pontiff because they do not even know that they have to be baptized Catholics, why further complicate things for them with submission to the pope?)

Pope Clement V, Council of Vienne, Decree # 30, 1311-1312, ex cathedra:

“… one universal Church, outside of which there is no salvation, for all of whom there is one Lord, one faith, and one baptism…” (one lord, one faith by their belief in a god that rewards, and one invisible baptism by, you guessed it, their belief in a god that rewards)

Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, Sess. 8, Nov. 22, 1439, ex cathedra:

“Whoever wishes to be saved, needs above all to hold the Catholic faith; unless each one preserves this whole and inviolate, he will without a doubt perish in eternity.” ( the Catholic faith is belief in a god that rewards)

Pope Leo X, Fifth Lateran Council, Session 11, Dec. 19, 1516, ex cathedra:

“For, regulars and seculars, prelates and subjects, exempt and non-exempt, belong to the one universal Church, outside of which no one at all is saved, and they all have one Lord and one faith.” (Just pick a few from the above excuses, from here on it’s a cake walk, just create your own burger with the above ingredients. You’ll be an expert at it in no time.)

Pope Pius IV, Council of Trent, Iniunctum nobis, Nov. 13, 1565, ex cathedra: “This true Catholic faith, outside of which no one can be saved… I now profess and truly hold…”

Pope Benedict XIV, Nuper ad nos, March 16, 1743, Profession of Faith: “This faith of the Catholic Church, without which no one can be saved, and which of my own accord I now profess and truly hold…”

Pope Pius IX, Vatican Council I, Session 2, Profession of Faith, 1870, ex cathedra: “This true Catholic faith, outside of which none can be saved, which I now freely profess and truly hold…”

Council of Trent, Session VI (Jan. 13, 1547) Decree on Justification, Chapter IV.

A description is introduced of the Justification of the impious, and of the Manner thereof under the law of grace.
By which words, a description of the Justification of the impious is indicated,-as being a translation, from that state wherein man is born a child of the first Adam, to the state of grace, and of the adoption of the sons of God, through the second Adam, Jesus Christ, our Saviour. And this translation, since the promulgation of the Gospel, cannot be effected, without the laver of regeneration, or the desire thereof, as it is written; unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God (John 3:5). (this means you do not need to be baptized or have a desire to be baptized. You can be baptized invisible by desire or no desire, you can call no desire “implicit” desire, you can also receive water baptism with no desire, no, wait a minute that does not go in both directions for the water baptism, it only works for desire or if you have no desire at all. Come to think of it, just forget about all of it, persons in false religions can be justified by their belief in a god that rewards.)

Chapter VII. What the justification of the impious is, and what are the causes thereof.

This disposition, or preparation, is followed by Justification itself, which is not remission of sins merely, but also the sanctification and renewal of the inward man, through the voluntary reception of the grace, and of the gifts, whereby man of unjust becomes just, and of an enemy a friend, that so he may be an heir according to hope of life everlasting.

Of this Justification the causes are these: the final cause indeed is the glory of God and of Jesus Christ, and life everlasting; while the efficient cause is a merciful God who washes and sanctifies gratuitously, signing, and anointing with the holy Spirit of promise, who is the pledge of our inheritance; but the meritorious cause is His most beloved only-begotten, our Lord Jesus Christ, who, when we were enemies, for the exceeding charity wherewith he loved us, merited Justification for us by His most holy Passion on the wood of the cross, and made satisfaction for us unto God the Father; the instrumental cause is the sacrament of baptism, which is the sacrament of faith, without which no man was ever justified;(except all persons in false religions, they can be justified by their belief in a god that rewards)

Pope Eugene IV, The Council of Florence, “Exultate Deo,” Nov. 22, 1439, ex cathedra: “Holy baptism, which is the gateway to the spiritual life, holds the first place among all the sacraments; through it we are made members of Christ and of the body of the Church. And since death entered the universe through the first man, ‘unless we are born again of water and the Spirit, we cannot,’ as the Truth says, ‘enter into the kingdom of heaven’ [John 3:5]. The matter of this sacrament is real and natural water.” (Just ignore that language, all persons in false religions can be justified by their belief in a god that rewards)

Council of Trent. Seventh Session. March, 1547. Decree on the Sacraments. On Baptism
Canon 2. If anyone shall say that real and natural water is not necessary for baptism, and on that account those words of our Lord Jesus Christ: "Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God (John 3:5), are distorted into some metaphor: let him be anathema.( any persons in false religions can be invisible baptized and justified by their belief in a god that rewards)

Canon 5. If any one saith, that baptism is optional, that is, not necessary unto salvation; let him be anathema (the pope is also speaking here of the invisible baptism of persons in false religions that are baptized and justified by their belief in a god that rewards)

Pope Pius XII, Mystici Corporis (# 22), June 29, 1943: “Actually only those are to be numbered among the members of the Church who have received the laver of regeneration and profess the true faith.”( the laver of regeneration can be had invisible and the true faith is belief in a god that rewards)

Pope Pius XII, mєdιαtor Dei (# 43), Nov. 20, 1947: “In the same way, actually that baptism is the distinctive mark of all Christians, and serves to differentiate them from those who have not been cleansed in this purifying stream and consequently are not members of Christ orders sets the priest apart from the rest of the faithful who have not received this consecration.” ( persons who believe in a god that rewards do not need the mark, but they are in the Church. Somehow)

(Oh, I forgot invincible ignorance, no one mentions it anymore, it is now out of fashion, so I did not include it above. If you are old fashioned, just throw in a few invincible ignorants up there with the rest of the ingredients)

Ladislaus · « **Reply #64 on:** March 18, 2021, 04:52:19 AM »

Quote from: XavierSem on March 17, 2021, 10:27:06 PM

St. Alphonsus definitely taught the doctrine of implicit Baptism of Desire. St. Alphonsus also taught salvation by explicit faith in Our Lord Jesus Christ.

What St. Alphonsus meant by implicit desire is completely different from what most modern BoDers mean. These latter believe that the desire can be implicit in simply being a nice person ... without any need for explicit faith. Most moderns mean implicit faith when they use the term implicit Baptism of Desire. So while the words are the same, the meaning and import are altogether different.

Pax Vobis · « **Reply #65 on:** March 18, 2021, 09:04:37 AM »

Quote

What St. Alphonsus meant by implicit desire is completely different from what most modern BoDers mean. These latter believe that the desire can be implicit in simply being a nice person ... without any need for explicit faith. Most moderns mean implicit faith when they use the term implicit Baptism of Desire. So while the words are the same, the meaning and import are altogether different.

Exactly!
.
Xavier, until you admit (and rightly condemn) the modern corruption of what St Alphonsus taught, including +ABL's and +Fellay's errors, whenever you quote St Alphonsus on this issue, you are mocking his orthodoxy. He would be appalled at how the Modernists corrupted the word "implicit" and re-defined it for their heretical purposes.

Last Tradhican · « **Reply #66 on:** March 18, 2021, 01:37:02 PM »

While you are on the subject of XavierSem's never ending subterfuge of quoting St. Alphonsus Ligouri's Implicit baptism of desire while he really totally rejects it in his belief in salvation of Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Jews etc, by implicit faith, a totally different theory that St. Alphonsus Ligouri rejected. Here is the only dogmatic source they have for BOD of any flavor and even there they have to interpret it according to their own desires. One has to have a sense of humor to go on with these sophist vipers. Here is how the implicit faither's interpret the council of Trent (in red):

Council of Trent, Session VI (Jan. 13, 1547) Decree on Justification, Chapter IV.

A description is introduced of the Justification of the impious, and of the Manner thereof under the law of grace.
By which words, a description of the Justification of the impious is indicated,-as being a translation, from that state wherein man is born a child of the first Adam, to the state of grace, and of the adoption of the sons of God, through the second Adam, Jesus Christ, our Saviour. And this translation, since the promulgation of the Gospel, cannot be effected, without the laver of regeneration, or the desire thereof, as it is written; unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God (John 3:5). (this means you do not need to be baptized or have a desire to be baptized. You can be baptized invisible by desire or no desire, you can call no desire “implicit” desire, you can also receive water baptism with no desire, no, wait a minute that does not go in both directions for the water baptism, it only works for desire or if you have no desire at all. Come to think of it, just forget about all of it, persons in false religions can be justified by their belief in a god that rewards. God will appear to them in their last seconds of life and scare them into believing in Christ and the Holy Trinity and they will go straight to heaven.)

Below are some Trent dogmas that have to do with Justification and Baptism which they totally reject:

Chapter VII. What the justification of the impious is, and what are the causes thereof.

This disposition, or preparation, is followed by Justification itself, which is not remission of sins merely, but also the sanctification and renewal of the inward man, through the voluntary reception of the grace, and of the gifts, whereby man of unjust becomes just, and of an enemy a friend, that so he may be an heir according to hope of life everlasting.

Of this Justification the causes are these: the final cause indeed is the glory of God and of Jesus Christ, and life everlasting; while the efficient cause is a merciful God who washes and sanctifies gratuitously, signing, and anointing with the holy Spirit of promise, who is the pledge of our inheritance; but the meritorious cause is His most beloved only-begotten, our Lord Jesus Christ, who, when we were enemies, for the exceeding charity wherewith he loved us, merited Justification for us by His most holy Passion on the wood of the cross, and made satisfaction for us unto God the Father; the instrumental cause is the sacrament of baptism, which is the sacrament of faith, without which no man was ever justified;(except all persons in false religions, they can be justified by their belief in a god that rewards)

Council of Trent. Seventh Session. March, 1547. Decree on the Sacraments. On Baptism

Canon 2. If anyone shall say that real and natural water is not necessary for baptism, and on that account those words of our Lord Jesus Christ: "Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God (John 3:5), are distorted into some metaphor: let him be anathema.( any persons in false religions can be invisible baptized and justified by their belief in a god that rewards)

Canon 5. If any one saith, that baptism is optional, that is, not necessary unto salvation; let him be anathema (the pope is also speaking here of the invisible baptism of persons in false religions that are baptized and justified by their belief in a god that rewards)

gemmarose · « **Reply #67 on:** March 18, 2021, 02:03:35 PM »

Quote from: Ladislaus on March 15, 2021, 03:17:26 PM

I agree, Pax. If the teaching of Trent can be summed up in a sentence, it was promoting the notion of the Church as a VISIBLE SOCIETY, where salvation happened visibly through the Sacraments. As Rahner pointed out, the Church Fathers all unanimously believed that visibly belonging to the Church was necessary for salvation. That's why I (and a few Fathers) give a pass to speculation about Catechumens, since these are in fact, in a way, joined to the visible Church.

And that is THE doctrinal ʀɛʋօʟutιօn of Vatican II, replacing Tridentine ecclesiology with a Protestant one.

If BOD advocates left it to only catechumens it would be different. But I still fail to see how the catechumens are members of the Church. They are not born again or buried with Christ. No council teaches they are members. Also, there is a clear distinction found all over the place--including the Mass of the Catechumens and the Mass of the Faithful, and that the early Church made them leave the churches prior to the Offertory.
They didn't receive the laver of regeneration, as Mystici Corporis #22 states as needed for membership, and so on. Actually, the evidence is greatly against the notion, so it remains difficult to believe so many held it. It seems as though important theologians speculating simply became accepted by so many. It seems obvious to me that BOD is the root of this current apostasy, but it is very difficult to convince anyone of that.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #68 on:** March 18, 2021, 02:15:19 PM »

Quote from: gemmarose on March 18, 2021, 02:03:35 PM

If BOD advocates left it to only catechumens it would be different. But I still fail to see how the catechumens are members of the Church. They are not born again or buried with Christ. No council teaches they are members. Also, there is a clear distinction found all over the place--including the Mass of the Catechumens and the Mass of the Faithful, and that the early Church made them leave the churches prior to the Offertory.
They didn't receive the laver of regeneration, as Mystici Corporis #22 states as needed for membership, and so on. Actually, the evidence is greatly against the notion, so it remains difficult to believe so many held it. It seems as though important theologians speculating simply became accepted by so many. It seems obvious to me that BOD is the root of this current apostasy, but it is very difficult to convince anyone of that.

Right, but I would take that since it doesn't destroy Catholic ecclesiology the way other versions do.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #69 on:** March 18, 2021, 02:53:23 PM »

I do believe in a BoB for Catechumens, and possibly a BoB.

But, according to St. Ambrose, the BoB and the BoD obtain "washing" (from sin) but now "crowning" (supernatural life), so justification but not salvation.

Last Tradhican · « **Reply #70 on:** March 18, 2021, 03:44:19 PM »

Quote from: Last Tradhican on March 18, 2021, 01:37:02 PM

Council of Trent, Session VI (Jan. 13, 1547) Decree on Justification, Chapter IV.

A description is introduced of the Justification of the impious, and of the Manner thereof under the law of grace.
By which words, a description of the Justification of the impious is indicated,-as being a translation, from that state wherein man is born a child of the first Adam, to the state of grace, and of the adoption of the sons of God, through the second Adam, Jesus Christ, our Saviour. And this translation, since the promulgation of the Gospel, cannot be effected, without the laver of regeneration, or the desire thereof, as it is written; unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God (John 3:5). (this means you do not need to be baptized or have a desire to be baptized. You can be baptized invisible by desire or no desire, you can call no desire “implicit” desire, you can also receive water baptism with no desire, no, wait a minute that does not go in both directions for the water baptism, it only works for desire or if you have no desire at all. Come to think of it, just forget about all of it, persons in false religions can be justified by their belief in a god that rewards. God will appear to them in their last seconds of life and scare them into believing in Christ and the Holy Trinity and they will go straight to heaven.)

If from the above decree, the implict faither's deduce that a Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist Jew etc., that has no explicit desire to be a Catholic or be baptized, can be saved by his belief in a God that rewards, his implicit faith, why would it not go both ways? That is, a Jew that is baptized against his will will also be saved and moreover, will have the indelible baptismal mark which the Jew that had no forced baptism would not have. The implicit faither's believe that a Muslim who explicitly does not want to be baptized or be a Catholic is really a Catholic, but he just does not know it, so why can't he be also baptized although he did not desire it either?

Durango77 · « **Reply #71 on:** March 18, 2021, 05:04:24 PM »

I read some St Alphonsus last night. I'm not gonna get into hypotheticals of can a tractor living on a desert island be saved, because it has no bearing on reality. The reality is God can save whoever He wants however He wants to do it and to say that He cannot is error.

There are docuмented cases of people being saved without baptism of water in the Bible and Church tradition to prove this point.

Last Tradhican · « **Reply #72 on:** March 18, 2021, 06:00:48 PM »

Quote from: Durango77 on March 18, 2021, 05:04:24 PM

The reality is God can save whoever He wants however He wants to do it and to say that He cannot is error. ( to say that a person can die by accident before God can complete the easiest part of the conversion, the baptism, which takes 3 seconds, is insanity. Especially since it is apposed to so many dogmas on salvation)

There are docuмented cases of people being saved without baptism of water in the Bible and Church tradition to prove this point ( since the new covenant, the stories of people being saved by BOD are few and unproveable. Meanwhile the actual real and confirmed stories of people being sent back from the dead to be baptized are hundreds. And infants, sick, and elderly holding on to life till they are baptized, then they die within seconds are in the millions.)

Answers in red above.

St. Augustine: “If you wish to be a Catholic, do not venture to believe, to say, or to teach that ‘they whom the Lord has predestinated for baptism can be snatched away from his predestination, or die before that has been accomplished in them which the Almighty has predestined.’ There is in such a dogma more power than I can tell assigned to chances in opposition to the power of God, by the occurrence of which casualties that which He has predestinated is not permitted to come to pass. It is hardly necessary to spend time or earnest words in cautioning the man who takes up with this error against the absolute vortex of confusion into which it will absorb him, when I shall sufficiently meet the case if I briefly warn the prudent man who is ready to receive correction against the threatening mischief.” (On the Soul and Its Origin 3, 13)

Stubborn · « **Reply #73 on:** March 19, 2021, 05:17:38 AM »

Quote from: Durango77 on March 18, 2021, 05:04:24 PM

I read some St Alphonsus last night. I'm not gonna get into hypotheticals of can a tractor living on a desert island be saved, because it has no bearing on reality. The reality is God can save whoever He wants however He wants to do it and to say that He cannot is error.

There are docuмented cases of people being saved without baptism of water in the Bible and Church tradition to prove this point.

This is actually not true in the sense you are implying, but it is true in that for us all, God established the means by which we all must use in order to be saved - which is to say that what He established truly is to whom and however He wanted.

Outside of that, God does not and cannot make exceptions to those requirements that He established and instituted as being necessary for salvation, nor does He have any reason whatsoever to make any exceptions.

Can you think of only one reason God would need to make any exception at all to that which He made a requirement?

Ladislaus · « **Reply #74 on:** March 19, 2021, 06:31:14 AM »

So DeLugo also distinguishes between justification and salvation.

Interesting ....

So much for the claim that there's no precedent for Fr. Feeney's position.

Author Topic: New St. Alphonsus Quotes on Implicit BOD (Read 8063 times)

Ladislaus

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Durango77

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Ladislaus

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Last Tradhican

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Ladislaus

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Pax Vobis

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Last Tradhican

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gemmarose

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Ladislaus

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Ladislaus

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Last Tradhican

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Durango77

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Last Tradhican

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Stubborn

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Ladislaus

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