This is what makes things sometimes difficult. I attend an OF parish, like most Catholics do. It is, on the whole, very reverent and a generally wonderful place to be, like all the parishes I've been to. It has a good school, and a beautiful church interior.

As a young Catholic, I have an interest in the history of the Church, the EF, and other parts of traditional Catholic spirituality. I enjoy reading the New Liturgical Movement blog, and I love the architecture of Catholic churches. This forum is of natural interest to me. I've learned a lot of interesting things from reading this subforum.

But there's a lot of OF bashing on here. Not just criticisms of it, but snide, ripping commentaries, as if it isn't enough to love the EF, but that one has to hate the OF as well. Sometimes, there can be a real sense of community in this part of the forum; the excitement over the FSSP dedication was a good example of that. But other times, there are people who are disregarding Pope Benedict's admonition against using liturgy to divide the Church.

Its almost enough to drive me out of the subforum entirely, despite the fact that a lot of the topics on here are very interesting to me. That's a frustrating thing. And I think, and maybe I'm crazy, that there are more than a few people who attend OF parishes who post in this part of the forum, or at least browse it, who would feel the same way. We aren't inferior Catholics. Our pastors aren't inferior priests. The Mass we attend isn't an inferior Mass. And for us to say that doesn't mean we denigrate the EF; many of us have an interest in it. But it can be very intimidating when people say that our Catholic experience is inferior and abuse-filled, when in many cases it is not.

They simply are not the fruits of the OF Mass. They are the fruits of priests who lack common sense and have had an attitude that they know better than Rome.

Quote:
You are presuming by this that it could not have happened in the EF and that is pure speculation. We can speculate all day; and all of it is idle.

Quote:
The fact is, the abuses of the 70's and 80's and into the early 90's were already dropping off, and have continued to drop off. Given the number of priests who say the OF with reverence (and there are plenty in my area), the growth in the priesthood by the ordination of the JP 2 priests, things are turning around even in areas that only have the OF.

Quote:
Throwing up something that happened 15, 20, 30 or more years ago says nothing about what is happening now.

I believe God has had it with them, too, Alexandria (and with the rest of us to boot).  IMO, that is what this time, from now to 2012 and beyond, is all about -- purification of hearts.  Cor Jesu Sacratissimum, miserere nobis

Cite your statistics. The only valid statistics I have seen show a gradual fall-off of attendance that started well before Vatican 2.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stevusmagnus  
"The mainline Prots went down the tubes because they imbibed the same liberalism as the Catholics did. The only sect that did well were the evangelicals who said to Hell with the revolution and stuck to their beliefs regarding conservative morality and the exclusivity of salvation through Jesus alone. Meanwhile the post VCII Popes were sucking up to every false religion imaginable.

It seems you are trying to tie the problems to everything except the most obvious cause. I think you need to ask yourself why. The truth will set you free."


OK, now we know what you think of the Popes. That perhaps explains the rest of your attitude. You have one in cross-wise; but that's your problem. You want to drag out everything that has happened and blame it on Vatican 2 and the OF, and except for your sayso, that is the sum of your evidence. Your bordeline hatred of the Mass, because you don't like the format, is truly amazing.

I have attended the Mass in both formats and have a high appreciation of both; Christ is truly present in both. I suspect you would not like the Mass as it occured in the first century.

I have attended all too many Masses prior to Vatican 2 said at 6:30 in the morning by a priest so drunk it still amazes me he could stand; slurred, said under 15 minutes - but we got through all of it. that is every bit as abusive as your repeated comments about clown and balloon Masses. Get over yourself. When you can show me you know more than either of the last two Popes, I will entertain a discussion with you; until then, take your poisonous attitude elsewhere.