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Traditional Catholic Faith => Crisis in the Church => Topic started by: stevusmagnus on April 05, 2010, 12:36:50 PM
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You make a wide swath of accusations against the OF; however, the majority of your accusations are simply post hoc, ergo propter hoc statements with no foundation other than they occured after the OF was introduced; and in fact, a number of them were occuring before the OF was introduced; logically that leads to the conclusion that it was not the OF which was the causitive factor.
People hear these accusations, and without any critical examination of what foundation supposedly lays under them, they repeat the accusation and lo and behold, another urban legend is born.
Church attendance started declining in the 1950's, long before Roncalli was Pope and well before work on the OF began. Likewise, ordinations fell off before that. Additionally, the sex abuse claims go back before Vatican 2 and a large number of the abusers were ordained before Vatican 2.
After Vatican 2, catechesis got thrown into the toilet and someone flushed, but there is no shown interconnection between the OF and the change from the Baltimore Catechism; that relates directly back to misdirection post Vatican 2 concerning catechesis itself on a separate track, because of the desire of some to get out of a doctrinal approach and into an experiential approach to teaching.
Having worked with Catholics Returning Home program and having talked with numerous others in similar programs, the people returning to the Church are not returning (nor did they leave) over issues of changes between the EF and the OF; they left over divorces, sex outside of marriage, lack of catechesis after Confirmation, relatively poor catechesis before Confirmation, going to college and getting swept up in challenges to their faith without sufficient foundation; the list goes on and on and amazingly it simply does not include people who quit over the change in the Mass. While there are some who left to go to SSPX, proportionally they are extremely small in numbers.
About the only issue you name that has any connection is the loss of reverence; and that issue has slowly been changing over the last 10 to 15 years, particularly as we have had the ordinations of the group called the John Paul priests. And granted that it has not shown everywhere in all dioceses to an equal amount, it is most definitely occuring; and if it is occuring then not all blame can be laid to the format of the Mass.
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Stevus, why do you even bother with these people? They are willfully blind. The gap between you is beyond, to use one of their silly words, "bridging."
They have no idea what has been done to them because they cannot see the forest for the trees. They are beyond rehabilitation. They have no idea that they have had their faith altered, and wouldn't believe you even if you proved it to them. Facts mean nothing to them.
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Ehhh, I'm bored and it helps me refine my Traditional apologetic skills. ;)
Everyone feel free to chime in with responses!
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I'd like to help, but it's almost like figuring out how to prove to someone that the sky is blue.
If they're denying it, it doesn't look good for them loving the truth at ALL -- on the contrary, they are willfully blind.
If someone can't see the intrinsic problems with the Novus Ordo and Vatican II ("the French Revolution in the Church" -- not my words), and how it LEADS to sex outside of marriage, etc. I think they are beyond help.
True, no one leaves because the Mass is said in English -- they leave because the Mass lacks relevance for them, or they feel it's "not for them" -- a more general reason like that.
Just like few people connect television with their children's materialism and impure behavior -- but the connection is there nonetheless. How do you prove it? CAN you prove it? Perhaps not.
Matthew
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If someone with a gun fires it, and a man goes down, it's easy to draw a connection between the two. It can be proven to most peoples' satisfaction.
The damage done by TV, the media, Hollywood, the Novus Ordo, etc. takes much longer to occur -- therefore it's impossible to prove a link between it and its logical consequences.
All you can do is show the intrinsic problems with it, and how it could easily lead to the conclusion. The fact that the conclusion exists makes it LIKELY that it did happen. But it's like circuмstantial evidence -- they can always blame something else.
"It's not the cell phone that caused my 10 year old's brain tumor. It was something in the water!"
"Eating nothing but McDonalds every day for 2 years didn't make me fat. It's in my genes."
etc.
How do you prove it one way or the other?
Matthew
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Good points Matthew.
I was short on time, but I volleyed this in a quick response.
VCII has failed in every goal it stated and every great fruit it promised. Judging by its own standards it was a failure.
The law of prayer is the law of belief. Catholics have prayed like Protestants (and sometimes pagans) for the last 50 years and their beliefs have followed suit.
The NO Mass has helped more than anything else to destroy the Faith of Catholics.
To deny this is to deny reality and to keep yourself from coming to the solution. You are fighting symptoms and not realizing the cause of the disease.
I suggest you check the index of leading indicators to get your facts straight regarding Mass attendance, vocations, etc. The evidence is overwhelming.
The number of abuse cases before the 1960's pales in comparison to the institutionalized ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity and sex abuse afterwards.
It is amazing the lengths some will go to deny the obvious causes of such destruction, all to save face and save a Council that has had no good fruit in 50 years.
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His most recent response is a dodge..
The original purpose of this thread was to ask what an individual could do to assist in getting people to know more about the EF and how to go about educating them about it. There have been ample discussions about Vatican 2, sɛҳuąƖ abuse by priests, changes within the Church since Vatican 2 and other issues that you bring up in other threads, and those discussions really belong there, and not here. sɛҳuąƖ abuse has nothing to do with teaching people about the EF. I would be happy to respond to you concerning these other issues on another thread or several of them, because they are all important issues. However, they are totally off topic for the OP ande really need to be addressed elsewhere.
He inaccurately describes the OP, which was...
I have been the main mover behind starting a TLM in my parish. We have a great group of people but we are struggling to grow.
What in your experience is the best argument to support the TLM?
I responded with what amounts to a simple fruits argument that he apparently take issue with.
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My latest...
The original post was not as you describe. It was as follows:
Quote:
"I have been the main mover behind starting a TLM in my parish. We have a great group of people but we are struggling to grow.
What in your experience is the best argument to support the TLM?"
I responded with a simple "fruits" argument that is obvious but one with which you take issue with.
It is not hard to see how the Novus Ordo and accompanying liturgical travesty has contributed to sɛҳuąƖ promiscuity and other immorality. I think you vastly underestimate the law of lex orendi, lex credendi. The clothing which modern teens and others wear to the Novus Ordo is but one example of the laxity in modesty which leads to immorality. This is apparent in most NO churches. It leads to a loss of Catholic sense and a breakdown and laxity of faith and morals.
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Again, I do not disagree with you that the Church as well as society in general faces a lot of serious issues. I msot strongly disagree with you ;that the OF is the source of these problems, and I would invite you to start one or mroe threads on the issues if you wish. However, the intent of the thread started with the fact that the OP has the EF in his parish and wants to do something to support it and grow the attendance. Attacking the OF is not going to do that, and you can take that to the bank.
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There are two sides to all of this -- the faith and the Mass.
If you really believe that Vatican II was the entire cause of loss of faith, essentially you are saying that God willed evil on His faithful and holy people. This is why I do not buy the argument that everything was dandy before Vatican II and that Vatican II was some out-of-nowhere bombshell that ruined a thriving Church. I see it as more of a punishment.
The faith was slipping long before Vatican II, many people were already ecuмenical, many people had a "contraceptive mentality," many people were going to quickie fifteen-minute McDonald's Masses. "This people honoureth me with their lips: but their heart is far from me." There was an immense pressure on the Catholic Church to get with the times, to modernize, to stop being reactionary and fuddy-duddy. The very concept of tradition and of the unbending Rock had been nearly forgotten.
Vatican II simply gave people what secretly they already wanted or thought they wanted. Then they realized they didn't want it. Because to be in Vatican II is to bend God's rules to the level of man. But if you're going to do that, why go to the strictest Church, the true Church, the Catholic Church, at all? There is a contradiction here -- the Catholic Church is for those who want the truth, who want to know God's laws, no matter how harsh. Take that away, and you just have another sect.
So the lukewarm were filtered out, a new group of nominal Catholics who are really kind of agape, Protestant-like faux-Catholics filtered in, and the only Catholics that remain in VII are those who simply ignore all the changes, and even they stand a good chance of eventually being infected by the "new ways."
At the same time, the watered-down Mass is where the atomic bomb was really dropped. I do not think this is the abomination of desolation anymore, but it's a foreshadowing that removes or diminishes the most necessary source of grace. This repulses the conversions of those with a lofty spirit, and undoubtedly has driven many to leave what they think is the Church. In my pagan days, seeing what the "Catholic Church" had become, with little effeminate hippie folk-singers chanting Kumbaya, I certainly had no desire to be Catholic. I thought it was pure cheese. But eventually God brought me in.
To sum up: It's all connected. It's not ALL about the Mass, but that is one of the biggest parts of it. Essentially, in the new Church, everything has been replaced by dummies and impostors: You have dummy monks, dummy nuns, dummy saints, dummy miracles, dummy Popes, and at the center of it all, a dummy Mass. It's like a movie set at Disneyland, not the Church.
God is undertaking a filtering process; He is separating the men from the boys. In our time, only those who work extremely hard to find the truth will attain it. God has had enough of the lukewarm, and He is spitting them out of His mouth.
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Once again Raoul, I agree with you except for one part.
There is no way for anyone to remain a "good" Catholic in the novus ordo church. I used to think that it was but recently had my eyes opened. It is a poisonous atmosphere and, before you know it, you have imbibed conciliarism which is nothing other than protestantism with a semi-catholic veneer. Talk to anyone who thinks themselves "traditional" in the novus ordo for more than five minutes and you will see how infected they are with the conciliar faith.
By the way, Raoul, you seem much calmer. Why for the reason? :wink:
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I forgot to mention that I agree with most of what SM's adversary said. He undervalues the importance of the Mass, for sure, but he does a good job exploding traditionalist myths.
I wouldn't say the root cause of the loss of faith is the Novus Ordo Mass. I'd say the root cause is modernity, the modern world and the pressure it has put on us about how we think and how we behave. This was at work even during the days of the Latin Mass, when people were sleeping through it.
But the Novus Ordo mass kills or diminishes grace and it adds yet another gigantic obstacle to a faith that was already slipping. It is like a traumatic head wound to a near-dead cancer patient. Hence, we are in the Great Apostasy. To find the faith in our time is simply a miracle -- no doubt about it.
Alexandria said:
There is no way for anyone to remain a "good" Catholic in the novus ordo church. I used to think that it was but recently had my eyes opened. It is a poisonous atmosphere and, before you know it, you have imbibed conciliarism which is nothing other than protestantism with a semi-catholic veneer. Talk to anyone who thinks themselves "traditional" in the novus ordo for more than five minutes and you will see how infected they are with the conciliar faith.
All of those who began the traditionalist movement in the 70's had some exposure to the Novus Ordo Church. They survived it.
You're talking about the generic, run of the mill Novus Ordo Catholic and yeah, I have talked to some of them and know very well that their brains have been sucked out and replaced. It's like they have no background to their faith; they don't know about saints, they don't know about dogmas. You quote a fairly well-known saying of Jesus to them and it's like they've never heard it before. About all they know is the Golden Rule. "Jesus" as far as they're concerned is some vague, shadowy figure in the sky who helps them earn money and have BMWs. Just like with Protestants, as you say.
By the way, Raoul, you seem much calmer. Why for the reason? :wink:
People in VII are sometimes calm also! I am going back to CMRI, but don't expect me to cotton to NFP anytime soon. I just realized that there was too much gray area around it for me to avoid Mass for that reason.
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Exposure to the novus ordo for five years as opposed to forty-five is a big difference, wouldn't you say? It didn't happen overnight you know. These people do not even realize they are no longer Catholic. And sorrier still, even if they did, I don't think they'd care.
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The fruits argument is one of the best to promote the TLM. One doesn't even need to get into the NO's devastation. Even Fr. Pacwa on EWTN agrees with the evident beautiful fruits of the TLM.
I was answering the original post as stated and my response stands. The Novus Ordo has borne nothing but bad fruit. If someone would refuse to attend the TLM upon being confronted with these facts, then the person is being insincere & stubborn and the fault would not lie in the messenger.
One way or another Catholics need to realize that their local NO Mass is bad for their spiritual health. Keeping silent on the matter only does them a disservice.
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Response
So you've won a lot of people over the faith with this approach, huh?
Sorry, I just don't buy this, and I don't think I'm the only one. I'm very much in favor of not losing traditional practices, but to blame the OF/NO as producing "nothing but bad fruit" will strike people as either naive or disingenuous, and they will proceed to tune out whatever you say.
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Show me the "good fruits" of VCII and the "OF"
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I can't wait for the response to that one.
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It should be a dandy. ;)
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It would appear obvious that a vat number of the Magisterium disagree with you. Having talked with Father Pacwa personally and having listened to him numerous times, I don't believe that he would ever teach about the EF by tering down the OF; and by the way, he says the OF. As does the Pope. And as does the vast majority of priests theroughout the world.
The OF has borne good fruit; it is just that you appear to be ignorant of it. Attacking it is unlikely to convince much of anyone unfamiliar with the EF that the EF is so superior.
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I never said Fr. Pacwa attacked the OF. Did you even read what I said?
What good fruit has the OF borne?
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Please do keep at him for the good fruits of VII. This should be a revelation. :wink:
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I'm still waiting, Stevus.
Perhaps he needs a lot of time to formulate his response. I bet bible reading is one of them. I hope he doesn't say something sappy like the church is more "loving and compassionate."
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Someone else called him out too
So answer the question and provide examples.
Still no answer...
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Answer from another lib:
As my generation gets older, you will see some of this fruit. I pray that the fruits of my labor is borne at some point. You can also look at the fruits of certain Religious Orders, such as the Dominicans, the Franciscans, the Salesians of Saint John Bosco, and the Companions of the Cross and see the fruits they have brought.
On a personal note....for two years I've doing R.C.I.T. (RCIA for teens). I instruct them as the enter the Church. For the last seven years or so I've been active in youth ministry. With that one line above, (and I'm being serious as I say this) and with your comment on the OF, you have just told me I've been wasting my time. Wasting my life, even. That these years of efforts have borne nothing at all.
If I'm not mistaken, you've essentially called me a failure. And a heretic too most likely.
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Again, what impact has the SSPX had on the Church? Is this the legacy of the SSPX?
Quote:
Matthew 7:16 By their fruits you will know them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 Just so, every good tree bears good fruit, and a rotten tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a rotten tree bear good fruit.
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Society Fruits: thriving seminaries, large families, academies, true religious life, Traditional priesthood and sacraments preserved, true Ignatian retreats, TLM preserved, reverence in every Mass and Chapel,Indult, FSSP, ICK & Ecclessia Dei communities, universal freeing of the TLM after 40+ years of bondage, remitting of "excommunications" and now doctrinal discussions to finally clear up VCII for the entire Church after 50 years.
Fruits of VCII/ NO: Empty seminaries, loss of faith, sex abuse scandals and cover-ups destroyed Church credibility, loss of vocations, lack of reverence, "Silent apostasy"- JPII, "Smoke of Satan entering the Church"- Paul VI, "NO is a banal on the spot product"- Card. Ratzinger, Protestantized beliefs & worship, ugliness in church architecture, CITH, girl altar boys.
Not to mention this and this.
But, of course you will ignore all of this and parrot out "obedience", "springtime", "silence".
For those who have eyes to see, let him see...
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I agree about the fruits in the Dominicans and Franciscans, but I have no knowledge of them in the Salesians or the "Companions of the Cross." :wink:
I could feel sorry for this JPII generation if they weren't so arrogant, smug and self-righteous. This particular poster is quite pleased with himself, as most of them are. I can see all of the self-esteem nonsense has produced an obnoxious generation or two.
Sorry to sound so hard but I've had it with these people.
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I believe God has had it with them, too, Alexandria (and with the rest of us to boot). IMO, that is what this time, from now to 2012 and beyond, is all about -- purification of hearts. Cor Jesu Sacratissimum, miserere nobis
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You're talking about the generic, run of the mill Novus Ordo Catholic and yeah, I have talked to some of them and know very well that their brains have been sucked out and replaced. It's like they have no background to their faith; they don't know about saints, they don't know about dogmas. You quote a fairly well-known saying of Jesus to them and it's like they've never heard it before. About all they know is the Golden Rule. "Jesus" as far as they're concerned is some vague, shadowy figure in the sky who helps them earn money and have BMWs. Just like with Protestants, as you say.
Exactly, your average Novus Ordo Catholic is Protestant in the American Evangelical Rick Warren/Joel Osteen tradition. It's Moralistic Therapeutic Deism which is the dominant religion of America (and VII?) in general. The 5 main tenants of MTD are,
1. A god exists who created and ordered the world and watches over human life on earth.
2. God wants people to be good, nice, and fair to each other, as taught in the Bible and by most world religions.
3. The central goal of life is to be happy and to feel good about oneself.
4. God does not need to be particularly involved in one's life except when God is needed to resolve a problem.
5. "Good" people go to heaven when they die.
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Well said. You summed up the American religion in a nutshell.
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This is what makes things sometimes difficult. I attend an OF parish, like most Catholics do. It is, on the whole, very reverent and a generally wonderful place to be, like all the parishes I've been to. It has a good school, and a beautiful church interior.
As a young Catholic, I have an interest in the history of the Church, the EF, and other parts of traditional Catholic spirituality. I enjoy reading the New Liturgical Movement blog, and I love the architecture of Catholic churches. This forum is of natural interest to me. I've learned a lot of interesting things from reading this subforum.
But there's a lot of OF bashing on here. Not just criticisms of it, but snide, ripping commentaries, as if it isn't enough to love the EF, but that one has to hate the OF as well. Sometimes, there can be a real sense of community in this part of the forum; the excitement over the FSSP dedication was a good example of that. But other times, there are people who are disregarding Pope Benedict's admonition against using liturgy to divide the Church.
Its almost enough to drive me out of the subforum entirely, despite the fact that a lot of the topics on here are very interesting to me. That's a frustrating thing. And I think, and maybe I'm crazy, that there are more than a few people who attend OF parishes who post in this part of the forum, or at least browse it, who would feel the same way. We aren't inferior Catholics. Our pastors aren't inferior priests. The Mass we attend isn't an inferior Mass. And for us to say that doesn't mean we denigrate the EF; many of us have an interest in it. But it can be very intimidating when people say that our Catholic experience is inferior and abuse-filled, when in many cases it is not.
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Originally Posted by stevusmagnus
"http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NsC4wRPybpA
http://en.gloria.tv/?media=16608
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rh_nqtp3VrU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWKZEGsfZZY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZ5it20gKqwhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZ5it20gKqw
Enjoy the video fruits of the Novus Ordo!"
They simply are not the fruits of the OF Mass. They are the fruits of priests who lack common sense and have had an attitude that they know better than Rome. You are presuming by this that it could not have happened in the EF and that is pure speculation. We can speculate all day; and all of it is idle. The fact is, the abuses of the 70's and 80's and into the early 90's were already dropping off, and have continued to drop off. Given the number of priests who say the OF with reverence (and there are plenty in my area), the growth in the priesthood by the ordination of the JP 2 priests, things are turning around even in areas that only have the OF. Throwing up something that happened 15, 20, 30 or more years ago says nothing about what is happening now.
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They simply are not the fruits of the OF Mass. They are the fruits of priests who lack common sense and have had an attitude that they know better than Rome.
So Cardinal Schonborn lacks common sense and thinks he knows better than Rome?
http://en.gloria.tv/?media=16608 (http://en.gloria.tv/?media=16608)
As well as a Cardinal and about 50 Bishops/ Priests/ Deacons in this video?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZ5it20gKqw (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZ5it20gKqw)
Quote:
You are presuming by this that it could not have happened in the EF and that is pure speculation. We can speculate all day; and all of it is idle.
A balloon/ disco Mass could happen in the EF? Any videos of this?
Quote:
The fact is, the abuses of the 70's and 80's and into the early 90's were already dropping off, and have continued to drop off. Given the number of priests who say the OF with reverence (and there are plenty in my area), the growth in the priesthood by the ordination of the JP 2 priests, things are turning around even in areas that only have the OF.
JP II made Fr. Schonborn (of balloon/ disco Mass fame - see above) an Archbishop and a Cardinal.
Quote:
Throwing up something that happened 15, 20, 30 or more years ago says nothing about what is happening now.
Schonborn's Balloon Mass happened in 2008.
The Puppet Mass was 2008.
Jazz Mass was 2009.
Clown Mass was 2006.
Liturgical Dance Mass was MARCH 24. About two weeks ago!
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Heck with the "JPII priests" how bout all those good old "JPII bishops" who love to hide child molesters? Forget about being "orthodox" they don't even have enough basic respect for religion and their flock so as to try to avoid letting children get raped. I bet you there are many, many sodomite priests and bishops who say a pretty reverent novus ordo too.
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I believe God has had it with them, too, Alexandria (and with the rest of us to boot). IMO, that is what this time, from now to 2012 and beyond, is all about -- purification of hearts. Cor Jesu Sacratissimum, miserere nobis
what I told my parents other night, hwne they were -after 8 yrs silence about Bush's crimes-now angry about Obama cracking down on dissent.....told them we have to understand and accept the the USA is dead.dead....and not coming back as it was, good or bad.....they were a bit aghast and no real answer....
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Society Fruits: thriving seminaries, large families, academies, true religious life, Traditional priesthood and sacraments preserved, true Ignatian retreats, TLM preserved, reverence in every Mass and Chapel,Indult, FSSP, ICK & Ecclessia Dei communities, universal freeing of the TLM after 40+ years of bondage, remitting of "excommunications" and now doctrinal discussions to finally clear up VCII for the entire Church after 50 years.
Fruits of VCII/ NO: Empty seminaries, loss of faith, sex abuse scandals and cover-ups destroyed Church credibility, loss of vocations, lack of reverence, "Silent apostasy"- JPII, "Smoke of Satan entering the Church"- Paul VI, "NO is a banal on the spot product"- Card. Ratzinger, Protestantized beliefs & worship, ugliness in church architecture, CITH, girl altar boys.
Not to mention this and this.
But, of course you will ignore all of this and parrot out "obedience", "springtime", "silence".
For those who have eyes to see, let him see...
Bazinga. I'm going to have to quote this verbatim at some point.
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What a lie! Mass attendance was not going down in the 1950's at all! In fact, we had more converts to the faith than any other time in recorded history!
Take a look at this. (http://docs.google.com/viewer?pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESgZGsc3g9czAqYIe3qeKHitK-9rfY8PBR-XkCefXrISuXOpj_XCM6sgO6vxW51Cs19sfBJoAm9VpbJQYaXpkTVRxdHXwp8vn_96Rm8dDhQlofhGmR6OokH6KHVIFfhMex16EWO4&q=cache%3A3GSblvS6Ok0J%3Acara.georgetown.edu%2FAttendPR.pdf%20Mass%20attendance%20in%201950&docid=7acbef4df5220513f84303a2186a7b05&a=bi&pagenumber=2&w=779)
Totally lying.
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What a lie! Mass attendance was not going down in the 1950's at all! In fact, we had more converts to the faith than any other time in recorded history!
Take a look at this. (http://docs.google.com/viewer?pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESgZGsc3g9czAqYIe3qeKHitK-9rfY8PBR-XkCefXrISuXOpj_XCM6sgO6vxW51Cs19sfBJoAm9VpbJQYaXpkTVRxdHXwp8vn_96Rm8dDhQlofhGmR6OokH6KHVIFfhMex16EWO4&q=cache%3A3GSblvS6Ok0J%3Acara.georgetown.edu%2FAttendPR.pdf%20Mass%20attendance%20in%201950&docid=7acbef4df5220513f84303a2186a7b05&a=bi&pagenumber=2&w=779)
Totally lying.
that was true, and the converts were far more educated, we get a really poor harvest now, most Protocatholics....
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Cite your statistics. The only valid statistics I have seen show a gradual fall-off of attendance that started well before Vatican 2.
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevusmagnus
"The mainline Prots went down the tubes because they imbibed the same liberalism as the Catholics did. The only sect that did well were the evangelicals who said to Hell with the revolution and stuck to their beliefs regarding conservative morality and the exclusivity of salvation through Jesus alone. Meanwhile the post VCII Popes were sucking up to every false religion imaginable.
It seems you are trying to tie the problems to everything except the most obvious cause. I think you need to ask yourself why. The truth will set you free."
OK, now we know what you think of the Popes. That perhaps explains the rest of your attitude. You have one in cross-wise; but that's your problem. You want to drag out everything that has happened and blame it on Vatican 2 and the OF, and except for your sayso, that is the sum of your evidence. Your bordeline hatred of the Mass, because you don't like the format, is truly amazing.
I have attended the Mass in both formats and have a high appreciation of both; Christ is truly present in both. I suspect you would not like the Mass as it occured in the first century.
I have attended all too many Masses prior to Vatican 2 said at 6:30 in the morning by a priest so drunk it still amazes me he could stand; slurred, said under 15 minutes - but we got through all of it. that is every bit as abusive as your repeated comments about clown and balloon Masses. Get over yourself. When you can show me you know more than either of the last two Popes, I will entertain a discussion with you; until then, take your poisonous attitude elsewhere.
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Stevus
Do you think he recognizes his own "poisonous attitude"? They all like to take the high moral ground.
I also wonder if they realize that by their own lousy attitude and total lack of their brand of "charity" that THEY push away people from the novus ordo church. Who wants to be one with that band of vipers?
I have noticed a step-up on CAF with their arrow flinging at those members who are not a part of their group think. Really nasty stuff.
I'll say it again. CAF is evil. It's also an occasion of sin. Have you ever read the title of some of the topics being discussed there? I wouldn't even discuss these things with my best friend let alone put it on the world wide web.
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Stevus --
I'm honestly not trying to derail this thread, but I wanted to point out the benefit of putting up a picture of oneself.
For no rational reason, I picture you as looking like Cary Grant.
Was that your avatar at one time?
At any rate, I'm sure you don't look like Cary Grant, but that's who I picture when I read your posts!
Sorry for hijacking the thread -- carry on.
Matthew
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That's a good one Matthew. Stevus is suave.
Isn't it funny though? I, too, have mental images of how people look.
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Well, he's a conservative Traditional Catholic lawyer. Not exactly incompatible with a Cary Grant kind of look (especially how he dresses)
I do suspect it may have been a past avatar.
For those of you who think I'm crazy, just note how you do a double-take when you finally see a real pic of someone on here. Why are you shocked? Did you picture them as looking like St. Pius X, Archbishop Lefebvre, or Bishop Williamson? I think you did, as illogical as it might seem.
It's the power of brainwashing/advertising!
If I were a single girl, I'd pick a really cute avatar, even if it looked nothing like me. I wouldn't be claiming to look like that character, just that I was "a fan of her". It's not socially acceptable at this time to rib someone on their choice of avatar or who they "admire".
It would be using human nature to your advantage.
For that matter, guys could do the same thing (though men are more visually oriented than women -- so don't complain if it doesn't work!). Don't choose a silly or dorky pic -- even if it's funny. Have a pic of someone awesome, shooting lightning bolts out of his hands, and people will have this impression, albeit illogical, that you are powerful and good looking.
That's how advertising works every day.
How many people put rancid vegetable oil by-products on their bread every day? They've been convinced that it's "margarine" and that it's just as good as butter. They've even been convinced that the artery-clogging substance is better for your health!
Matthew
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I've known many suave attorneys; some better looking than the late Cary Grant (God rest his soul)! :wink:
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Ok Matthew, which Fisheater put you up to this? ;)
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Matthew,
Unfortunately you are WAY off.
I've just uploaded a recent pic of myself below....
(http://diamondism.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/dolemite-277x300.jpg)
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I've been trying to spread Tradition through the European Disco community....
Seriously, I hope it was obvious I was kidding.
I notice I got ignored immediately!
My apologies to whomever I offended.
This is a pic of a black 70's actor.
See what you've done Matthew? ;)
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Good post on state of NO on Rorate:
""...it should be noted that many dioceses reputed to be orthodox, and even Rome, continue to witness all sorts of liturgical abuses..."
On my peregrinations, personal experience confirms that the liturgical situation is so dire it is beyond repair. If Pope Benedict XVI really took this cause on wholesale he would fail. Each change in the NO results in various interpretations; partial adoptions and even total avoidance for other permutations often based on d-i-y approaches. Sooner or later the NO will have to be scrapped as it contains the source of its own demise. It is based on the principles of change and adaptation to modern man which is a hyper-dynamic phenomenon today using ever-adapting vernacular tongues. In many years I have never seen two identical versions. Only an unchanging Roman Rite in Latin will suffice to restore and recentralise liturgical discipline.
It is difficult not to be skeptical about any episcopal appointment since they nearly all appear to have become liberal in one sense or another. That is unless they are committed to traditional confraternities.
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I posted the following after someone put up an article regarding the leading indicators of stats following VCII.
"Originally Posted by stevusmagnus
Thanks Pro. I was about to post that myself.
It pretty much tells any reasonable person what they need to know about the reform.
If the Church were a business and an executive had executed a plan with these results he would have been fired a long time ago and the company would have changed direction immediately."
This was the primary response:
A reasonable person would look at what else was happening at the same time, to determine what the actual casuation was.
It is only the simplistic person who will buy into the post hoc, ergo propter hoc argument for causation.
The sacrament that is more telling than the reduction in the number of vocations is marriage; the fall-off of marriages and the surrounding issues are far more valid evidence of the causation than simply looking at the reduction in the number of ordinations.
Marriage has been impacted by a number of issues, including materialism (which took off after WW2, when we started the move to dual incomes and women moving into non-traditional jobs); the rise of ABC which started in 1930 and by the early 1960's was fueled by the new form - the Pill; the almost instantaneous rejection of Humanae Vitae and the the following massive increase in the use of ABC; the sɛҳuąƖ revolution which reached a fever pitch in the mid 1960s; the gradual move since the 1960s to later and later marriage; the change in civil laws which previously made criminal both ABC and "shacking up" and the massive increase in both categories since then; and the move to "no fault" divorce which lead to a mssive increase in divorces.
Those who obstinately confuse the reform intended by Vatican 2 with the dissent that followed after Vatican 2 and is nowhere prompted by the docuмents - or for that matter, the OF - are either too intellectually lazy to do any research, or they are approaching intellectual dishonesty.
Many of the same issues that impacted the sacrament of marriage have had an impact - direct or indirect - on other sacraments. The dissent that over-ran HV spread like wild fire; if the Vatican was (theoretically) so far off the mark on sɛҳuąƖ issues and was to be ignored, then where else were they to be ignored? Where else were they simply a bunch of out-of-touch old people who simply "didn't get it"?
It is not the alternatives which are within the OF which caused priests to so thoroughly ignore the rubrics; it was the expanding idea that whatever Rome said was irrelevant, and that relevance had to be applied at the local level.
Vatican 2 did not create the changes in society, nor do the docuмents support any of the craziness that has gone on since 1965. Nor was it a few priests, ordained after 1965, who gave us the chaos in the OF; it was priests who were ordained before Vatican 2, many of them well before it. Blaming the necessary reform of the Church - which according to this pope and the last one still has not been fully implemented - for the subsequent chaos is simply to ignore the multitude of issues impacting both the clergy and the people in the pews. Experimentation had already started in the Mass before we got the OF handed to us, and that at a time where the rubrics were more formal and complex and a time where authority was far more reaching and (supposedly) effective.
And any business which fires its leader over things which the leader has no control is a business which will fail shortly.
Suggestions?
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It's gratutious special pleading. There's not much you can do except expose such fallacies and let him wander in the wilderness of his imagination.
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Original heretical definition of Mass in the GIRM of Paul VI
"The Lord's Supper or Mass is a sacred meeting or assembly of the People of God, met together under the presidency of the priest, to celebrate the memorial of the Lord. Thus the promise of Christ, "where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them", is eminently true of the local community in the Church (Mt. XVIII, 20)".
It is an argument from absence. You may say in another one hundred posts that it is heresy. I will not accept it as such. When I see words such as "implicitly" and phrases like "at least in practice" I see a hedging of truth, that is, trying to make something exist in a vacuum. It is not the definition of heresy. This is the definition of heresy.
The obstinate denial after Baptism of a truth which must be believed with divine and Catholic faith (2089; cf. 465).
No denial equate to no heresy.
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I asked a poster what it meant that Lutherans have no problem with saying the NO basically word for word. His response?
That the Lutherans are so theologically weak minded that they can take something that is totally and distinctly Catholic and use it as their own without even comprehending the theology behind it. They like the sound of the words without the intellectual ability to understand the deep meanings behind them, much like people who quote Shakespeare because it sounds high brow, yet have never read a total work of his.
He had asked if I'd be happy if the Lutherans copied the TLM. I told him if they did so, they'd be Catholic. His response?
Nice attempt at avoiding the question so I will ask again; if the Lutherans copied the Tridentine Missal for their service books, would you have a problem with "it."
They've already copied a Catholic missal and yet are still not Catholic. Your logic is flawed.
I then pointed out that in 1969, Max Thurian, an important protestant theologian, who helped found the ecuмenical Taizé community in France, made this statement: "It is now theologically possible for Protestants to use the same Mass as Catholics."
His response:
I will ask this once again; PLEASE SHOW ME AN EXAMPLE OF ANYTHING PROTESTANT IN THE MISSAL OF POPE PAUL VI.
Just because the confused theology of a protestant allows the use of liturgical books that are not part of their faith does not mean that there is anything inherently flawed in the liturgy. By your logic, the Bible itself is questionable since so many atrocities have been committed throughout the centuries using the Bible as a source of authority.
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As has been mentioned numerous times before, Catholics did not leave the Church because of the change in liturgy (and, apparently, neither did the change in the liturgy bring in the wayward protestants; perhaps there is some other underlying element?); the continuance of the latin Mass would have seen the same loss of souls.
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He deals in gratutious assertions all day long.
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I will ask this once again; PLEASE SHOW ME AN EXAMPLE OF ANYTHING PROTESTANT IN THE MISSAL OF POPE PAUL VI.
According to his own logic it would be a moot point since the rite can be contorted and adapted in any way at all without any effect on the Church at all or without any concern regarding whether or not anti-catholic heretics can in good conscience adopt it. Nothing means nothing and everything means everything.
The evil of the N.O.M. consists primarily in redacting catholic elements and adapting it to an underlying theology which departs from catholic doctrine. In order to demonstrate this, one has to examine first its underlying principles. But if he is unmoved by the fact that the Catholic liturgy was mutilated by an unheard of motive called ecuмenism then one wonders what would move him at all? His sense is too deadened to even comprehend the magnitude of such a proposition.
Just because the confused theology of a protestant allows the use of liturgical books that are not part of their faith does not mean that there is anything inherently flawed in the liturgy. By your logic, the Bible itself is questionable since so many atrocities have been committed throughout the centuries using the Bible as a source of authority.
If what they once abhorred and condemned they now accept and practice, logic would dictate that something is amiss. His reference to the Bible is futile for it has not changed one iota. The fact that a man can steal it from the Church and abuse it to his own ends is simply a testament to his own defect.
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Actually, Mass attendance prior to the Council was already in decline here in America during the "Golden Age" of the 1950's, the same with vocations. YOUR claim is unsupported by statistical data. Attendance in Europe had been in decline, too, before the Council. So there. It has been posted here nearly ad nauseum that people left because the Church did not change its classic stance on issues such as divorce and birth control.
You have yet to back up your assertions of Mass attendance and vocations in the 50's with statistical data. We have copied and pasted our data with a link. Until you can do the same your assertions are hollow.
No matter how many times you post something it does not make it true. Differing with the Church on divorce and birth control in particular do not cause people to leave the Church. A vast majority of Catholics in the Church today believe and practice divorce and birth control.
Those who hit the road, did so immediately after and following the Council. A Council that failed in every stated goal. Once again, please tell me one goal stated by the Council that it achieved? What are the "good fruits" of the Council?
Please cite one instance where protestants celebrate the Sacrifice of the Mass with a belief in the True Presence according to a liturgy of the Catholic Church.
That's just it! They can say the exact words of the Novus Ordo Mass and not believe in the Real Presence (just like most NO Catholics today) and they can do so because the Rite is so ambiguous. That's our entire point.
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By the way, it seems the new Neo-Cath talking point on VCII and the NO is that Mass attendance and vocations began to decline in the 50's.
I'm hearing this all of a sudden and frequently now. This must be their new "defense" of the Council in the face of overwhelming statistical data.
As of yet they have provided no numbers. If they ever do, we need to be able to counteract their assertion behind whatever numbers they authentically produce.
See, this is why debating these people is valuable. We need to know what they are up to and get responses ready. If we don't they can mislead a lot of people as many of us were mislead by the liberal/ Neo-Cath complex for years.
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His lame response to my 5:14 post...
please show me from the missal of pope paul vi anything that is protestant.
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please show me from the missal of pope paul vi anything that is protestant.
So this is your only response to everything I posted and quoted for you?
Quotations from a Lutheran minister present and the architect of the New Mass mean nothing ?
As I've said repeatedly, what is Protestant about the New Mass is not so much what is in it as what is not in it. Look at the differences in the offeratory. Bugnini took an explicitly Catholic Mass and deformed it into an ambiguous rite able to be said in good faith by Protestants.
Cite me one instance where Protestants have ever used the Missal of Pius V.
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stevus,
Have you ever read PH Omlor's comments/articles about the all-English Canon of 1967 (which also became applicable to the NOM post-1969)?
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Here is another talking point we need to address...
Excepting the fact that the Church in Europe was in full hemorrhage before Vatican II was convened
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stevus,
Have you ever read PH Omlor's comments/articles about the all-English Canon of 1967 (which also became applicable to the NOM post-1969)?
No. Will it help in this debate?
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Here is another talking point we need to address...
Excepting the fact that the Church in Europe was in full hemorrhage before Vatican II was convened
What precisely does he mean by "full hemorrhage"?
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Oh geez..
Actually, there's no evidence whatsoever that Archbishop Bugnini ever said anything like, "We must strip from our prayers anything that is Catholic." You can try to find proof of this, but you won't succeed. It's always attributed to some article in L'Osservatore Romano, but the text of the article, context of the quotation, or (gasp) a scan of the article is never provided. If you can find any proof that this quotation is genuine, I'd love to see it.
Same with the Lutheran quote, for that matter.
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Yes, it's pretty damning isn't it?
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If you cannot cite anything in the missal that is protestant then please just say so. Insinuation is hardly credible evidence.
I've given you myriads of examples and made our position clear and you've given no substantive response. You merely repeat an already answered question that has no relevance to our position and is a strawman/ red herring.
What is Protestant about the NO us the fact that explicitly Catholic prayers regarding the propitiatory sacrifice were deliberately omitted to appease Protestants. Other changes and omissions were made with this in mind as clear quotations from Bugnini himself and the Protestant ministers show.
The real question to ask is what in the Novus Ordo Mass is explicitly and unambiguously Catholic that Protestants will not accept.
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Someone here once posted that what is referred to as this quote from Archbishop Bugnini is actually a very rough and inaccurate translation of what he said. The "key" words were translated in a way as to make them appear much more extraordinary than they really were. You are right, though, that it is always the same unverified quote used over and over.
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The greatest indictment against the novus ordo are the posters themselves. But you will never get them to realize it because that's all they know.
Has anyone figured out why they are so defensive and why they feel the absolute need to defend (at any and all cost, including reason and sanity) every jot and tittle of the horrid VII docuмents and the ensuing decades of ecclesial horror? They remind me of many of the modern day parents who will never admit that their child is anything other than perfect.
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Oh geez
http://rubricsandritual.blogspot.com/2008/04/wdbrs.html (http://rubricsandritual.blogspot.com/2008/04/wdbrs.html)
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Click here to follow along
http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?p=6549547#post6549547 (http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?p=6549547#post6549547)