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Author Topic: ++Lefebvre and sedevacantism  (Read 36878 times)

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Offline CatholicInAmerica

Re: ++Lefebvre and sedevacantism
« Reply #235 on: October 10, 2019, 01:34:48 PM »
Quote from: Meg on October 10, 2019, 01:29:33 PM

There is good evidence that VII was not a real council. After all, it did not intend to do what actual Councils have ALWAYS done, which is to address, rebuke, and condemn error, and in that light to clarify true Church teaching. VII did not do that.

I'm going mainly by what Fr. Gregory Hesse said as to why VII was not a valid council. It was his opinion, as a canon lawyer.
You should really discount what Hesse said as his defense of the NRO was that it is a schismatic rite and therefore can deviate from the form of the Roman rite, by that logic I can make my own rite and the words “eenie miney mo” is a valid form for consecration. 
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Offline Meg

Re: ++Lefebvre and sedevacantism
« Reply #236 on: October 10, 2019, 01:42:35 PM »
Quote from: CatholicInAmerica on October 10, 2019, 01:34:48 PM
You should really discount what Hesse said as his defense of the NRO was that it is a schismatic rite and therefore can deviate from the form of the Roman rite, by that logic I can make my own rite and the words “eenie miney mo” is a valid form for consecration.

I have no idea what "NRO" means. Do you mean the Novus Ordo? If so, Fr. Hesse did believe that the Novus Ordo is a schismatic Mass. But.... it's a tad bit more complicated than just saying that one can make up his or her own "rite."

I don't have any interest in getting further involved in a debate on what Fr. Hesse believed regarding the NO.

Do you deny that VII deviated from all other Councils in not addressing and condemning error?
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Offline CatholicInAmerica

Re: ++Lefebvre and sedevacantism
« Reply #237 on: October 10, 2019, 01:48:01 PM »
Quote from: Meg on October 10, 2019, 01:42:35 PM
I have no idea what "NRO" means. Do you mean the Novus Ordo? If so, Fr. Hesse did believe that the Novus Ordo is a schismatic Mass. But.... it's a tad bit more complicated than just saying that one can make up his or her own "rite."

I don't have any interest in getting further involved in a debate on what Fr. Hesse believed regarding the NO.

Do you deny that VII deviated from all other Councils in not addressing and condemning error?
NRO is new rite of ordination. If you watch the video on “are novus ordo sacraments valid?” He makes a ridiculous argument to say that it is valid. VII is indeed heretical and is not a true council, as it was called by Roncalli, a heretic who could not have Been elected to the papacy.
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Offline Meg

Re: ++Lefebvre and sedevacantism
« Reply #238 on: October 10, 2019, 01:52:28 PM »
Quote from: CatholicInAmerica on October 10, 2019, 01:48:01 PM
NRO is new rite of ordination. If you watch the video on “are novus ordo sacraments valid?” He makes a ridiculous argument to say that it is valid. VII is indeed heretical and is not a true council, as it was called by Roncalli, a heretic who could not have Been elected to the papacy.

Fr. Hesse did indeed believe that the new rite of ordination is valid. He was hardly alone among traditionalists in believing that. There is no consensus among traditionalists that the new rite of ordination is invalid. If you want to believe it's invalid, that's you choice.

I'll ask again. If you are not comfortable in answering, that's fine. Do you deny that VII deviated from all other Councils in that it did not address and condemn error?
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Offline Pax Vobis

  • Supporter
Re: ++Lefebvre and sedevacantism
« Reply #239 on: October 10, 2019, 01:53:04 PM »
Quote
Your math is wrong a semi grace was given during the for all masses, a half grace is given at the modern “for many” novus ordo, bonus points for hand holding our father and +2 for every extra minister, -5 for every veil.
:laugh1:  Yes, good points.  I supposed there would be a +10 for the heretical con-celebrations with non-Catholic "ministers"?  What would "pride" masses offer... +50?!
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