Author Topic: ++Lefebvre and sedevacantism  (Read 6867 times)

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Offline hollingsworth

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++Lefebvre and sedevacantism
« on: October 06, 2019, 02:00:04 PM »
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  • Think I’ll start another topic, in that my last topic on “nourishment” went off into the weeds, as most CI topics eventually do. I’ll work off of Nottambula’s last post on that ill-fated thread:
    I apologize for the font sizes. I tried to control them.  It must be that all the formatting needs to be removed before selecting new font sizes and colors, etc.

    Quote:
    nottambula: ..but what's holding Bishop Williamson back from coming out and saying what he remarkably predicted in 1998 could very well happen?
    Quote from: Bishop Williamson:

    Quote
    One day, maybe soon, the See of Rome could become vacant. There have been several false popes, or anti-popes, in Church history. Again, for our own times, or times not far off, Our Lady warned us at La Salette that Rome will become the Seat of the Anti-Christ. It is quite possible that with the death of John Paul II (which may not be far off) there will be a vacant See of Rome or an anti-Pope for a while.
    So what happened after JP2’s death? Was a real pope elected in his place, and was +W thereafter convinced that the two men succeeding JP2 met the criteria as legitimate successors? Because HE certainly did not declare any vacancy at the time these events occurred.
    But almost twenty years earlier, HE’s boss said the following unequivocally:

    Quote
    "Rome has lost the Faith, my dear friends. Rome is in apostasy. It is not just words, it is not just words in the air that I say to you. It is the truth. Rome is in apostasy. One cannot have confidence any more in this world. He [the pope] has left the Church; they have left the Church; they are leaving the Church. It is sure, sure, sure!"
    I do not say that the pope is not the pope, but I do not say either that you cannot say that the pope is not the pope." --Archbishop Lefebvre, to his American priests, 1979
    ABL asserts, albeit elliptically, that it’s OK to think that the pope is not the pope. In fact, why could one not reasonably conclude from ABL’s own remarks that the Chair was vacant? It was ABL himself who said that Rome had lost the Faith, and that Rome was in apostasy? ABL painted himself into a corner, I think.

    Then about ten years later, ABL once again steps into it, when he declares:

    Quote
    "The See of Peter and posts of authority in Rome being occupied by Antichrists, the destruction of the Kingdom of Our Lord is being rapidly carried out even with His Mystical Body here below" (Letter Attributed to Archbishop Lefebvre
    Feast of St. Augustine, August 29, 1987.)
    Can anyone honestly believe that ABL excluded JP2 from those “posts of authority” occupied by Antichrists? Please!

    Three years earlier in 1984, ABL states the following:


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    "The current state of the papacy renders insignificant the difficulties over jurisdiction, disobedience and apostolicity, because these notions suppose the reign of a pope Catholic in his faith and government. Without entering into consideration of the consequences of an heretical, schismatic or non-existent pope, which would lead to interminable theoretical discussions, in conscience could we not and ought we not, after the promulgation of the 1983 Code of Carton Law which clearly affirms the new Church, and after his scandalous declarations concerning Luther, now affirm that Pope John Paul II is not Catholic? We say no more, but we say no less. We had waited for the measure to become full, and it is so henceforth."
     
    If JP2 was not even Catholic in 1984, is Bergoglio any more Catholic in 2019? Taking ABL’s own reasoning to its logical conclusion, how could JP2 have been a pope? ABL would not go there. He would not say what was on the tip of his tongue. Just five years earlier, though, he had said that the pope had “left the church.” Can a man be pope even though he has left the Church?

    And Matthew, you and others do not need to feel too sorry for folks who become sedevacantists. The Archbishop understood their real motives well enough, and sympathized with them. He said:


    Quote
    The sedevacantist honestly recognizes that his faith is actually not the same asJohn Paul II and his Conciliar Church. He recognizes that he is actually not subject and obedient to John Paul II. As a traditional Catholic, the sedevacantist believes and professes all the teachings of the Catholic Church, and this profession of the true Faith includes a rejection of the false teachings of Vatican II (“all already condemned by the Church in many a document, official and definitive” — Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre, June 29, 1976).
    In 1986, ABL was on the cusp of becoming sedevacantist himself. He was very “anxious.” Were he alive presently, I am sure that Bergoglio could help push ABL over the edge. Read the following:

    Now I don't know if the time has come to say that the Pope is a heretic; I don't know if it is the time to say that. You know, for some time many people, the sedevacantists, have been saying "there is no more Pope," but I think that for me it was not yet the time to say that, because it was not sure, it was not evident, it was very difficult to say that the Pope is a heretic, the Pope is apostate. But I recognize that slowly, very slowly, by the deeds and acts of the Pope himself we begin to be very anxious. (Talks Given by Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre
    on March 30 and April 18, 1986
     From “The Angelus” pages 2-4)


    Also in 1986, maybe in the same Angelus article, ABL says, in the wake of Assisi:



    Quote
    But I think the Pope can do nothing worse than call together a meeting of all religions, when we know there is only one true religion and all other religions belong to the devil. So perhaps after this famous meeting of Assisi, perhaps we must say that the Pope is a heretic, is apostate. Now I don't wish yet to say it formally and solemnly, but it seems at first sight that it is impossible for a Pope to be publicly and formally heretical. Our Lord has promised to be with him, to keep his faith, to keep him in the Faith - how can he at the same time be a public heretic and virtually apostatise? So it is possible we may be obliged to believe this pope is not pope.

    Bergoglio would have helped the Archbishop deal effectively with his indecisiveness. Of that I am convinced.


    Offline Meg

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    Re: ++Lefebvre and sedevacantism
    « Reply #1 on: October 06, 2019, 02:10:04 PM »
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  • Why does +ABL's supposed "indecisiveness" bother you so much? Why do you want to impose your beliefs on him, posthumously? 
    "This forum is a space for discussion to defend the Catholic Faith following Monsignor Marcel Lefebvre. It is therefore not for rallying to the conciliar church nor for sedevacantism"
    - From the French Resistance forum (Francophone forum, in France)


    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: ++Lefebvre and sedevacantism
    « Reply #2 on: October 06, 2019, 02:18:38 PM »
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  • Quote
    Bergoglio would have helped the Archbishop deal effectively with his indecisiveness. Of that I am convinced.
    Or he might have thought Francis' willingness to give ordinary jurisdiction to the SSPX without conditions as proof that, while certainly the crisis isn't over, that it could be possible to fight from within.

    We just don't know.  None of us do.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: ++Lefebvre and sedevacantism
    « Reply #3 on: October 06, 2019, 02:26:54 PM »
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  • On an earlier thread, I was arguing with SeanJohnson, and I pointed out to him the fact that +Lefebvre was quite sympathetic to sedevacantism, but he denied it.  After I produced the quotes, he stormed off the thread and then left CI for a time.

    If even increasing numbers of people within the Novus Ordo are beginning to question whether or not Francis is a heretic, I think it's very unlikely that +Lefebvre would not have come out an open sedevacantist, with his one reservation being that only the Church can definitively settle the issue.  

    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: ++Lefebvre and sedevacantism
    « Reply #4 on: October 06, 2019, 02:45:22 PM »
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  • On an earlier thread, I was arguing with SeanJohnson, and I pointed out to him the fact that +Lefebvre was quite sympathetic to sedevacantism, but he denied it.  After I produced the quotes, he stormed off the thread and then left CI for a time.

    If even increasing numbers of people within the Novus Ordo are beginning to question whether or not Francis is a heretic, I think it's very unlikely that +Lefebvre would not have come out an open sedevacantist, with his one reservation being that only the Church can definitively settle the issue.  
    I don't know how +Lefebvre would reason through this, but I will say, while Francis certainly says more problematic things than his predecessors, he by pure happenstance seems to be better for trads who want to be in communion with him than JPII was.  Mostly because he's too progressive to actually really want to force people to agree with him.

    At this point the SSPX is PRACTICALLY regularized and Francis isn't seriously trying to persecute them.  

    To be clear this isn't a defense of the man, actually listening to his teaching would be dangerous, but he's not attempting to excommunicate anyone for not doing so.

    Whereas John Paul II was actively suppressing the Latin Mass and actively only allowing it to people who were also OK with the Novus Ordo.

    So I don't know how +Lefebvre would reason through that issue.  For all I know he might be like "it actually doesn't matter anymore" or something (Sedevacantism, not Traditionalism.)

    That said, I seriously doubt he'd bind sedevacantism on people, even if he did personally conclude that it seemed more likely.


    Offline hollingsworth

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    Re: ++Lefebvre and sedevacantism
    « Reply #5 on: October 06, 2019, 03:00:39 PM »
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  • If ABL might have suspended his SV tendencies had Bergoglion simply formally opened the door of return, then shame on him.     

    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: ++Lefebvre and sedevacantism
    « Reply #6 on: October 06, 2019, 03:14:17 PM »
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  • If ABL might have suspended his SV tendencies had Bergoglion simply formally opened the door of return, then shame on him.    
    I mean if it was purely pragmatic, sure.  But I could also see the reasoning going something like.

    "Bad Pope wants to excommunicate us?  Well we know we're right, but also he DOES have the keys to the kingdom of heaven, so that's a real problem.  Maybe he isn't Pope."

    "Terrible Pope *isn't* using the keys against us, and is actually basically willing to have us in communion without demanding we accept Vatican II?  I mean he's still bad but maybe this isn't actually a logical contradiction."


    Offline hollingsworth

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    Re: ++Lefebvre and sedevacantism
    « Reply #7 on: October 06, 2019, 03:48:29 PM »
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  • Quote
    Or he might have thought Francis' willingness to give ordinary jurisdiction to the SSPX without conditions as proof that, while certainly the crisis isn't over, that it could be possible to fight from within.

    Fight within what?  ABL already declared that New Church is apostate, that its pope had left the faith.  How then could he have fought within a church which he had relegated to oblivion?


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: ++Lefebvre and sedevacantism
    « Reply #8 on: October 06, 2019, 04:01:48 PM »
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  • I don't know how +Lefebvre would reason through this, but I will say, while Francis certainly says more problematic things than his predecessors, he by pure happenstance seems to be better for trads who want to be in communion with him than JPII was.  Mostly because he's too progressive to actually really want to force people to agree with him.

    At this point the SSPX is PRACTICALLY regularized and Francis isn't seriously trying to persecute them.  

    To be clear this isn't a defense of the man, actually listening to his teaching would be dangerous, but he's not attempting to excommunicate anyone for not doing so.

    Whereas John Paul II was actively suppressing the Latin Mass and actively only allowing it to people who were also OK with the Novus Ordo.

    So I don't know how +Lefebvre would reason through that issue.  For all I know he might be like "it actually doesn't matter anymore" or something (Sedevacantism, not Traditionalism.)

    That said, I seriously doubt he'd bind sedevacantism on people, even if he did personally conclude that it seemed more likely.

    Right, but while Francis would have been more lenient on the SSPX, +Lefebvre wasn't primarily about convenience.  When John Paul II got elected, the Archbishop was at first optimistic.  But when Assissi happened, that's when +Lefebvre came within a hair's breadth of becoming an open sedevacantist.  Bergoglio makes Wojtyla look like St. Pius X by comparison.

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: ++Lefebvre and sedevacantism
    « Reply #9 on: October 06, 2019, 04:09:04 PM »
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  • Right, but while Francis would have been more lenient on the SSPX, +Lefebvre wasn't primarily about convenience.  When John Paul II got elected, the Archbishop was at first optimistic.  But when Assissi happened, that's when +Lefebvre came within a hair's breadth of becoming an open sedevacantist.  Bergoglio makes Wojtyla look like St. Pius X by comparison.
    And with Francis' stacked deck, the next "pope" will make Francis look like Pius V.
    "For there is not any thing secret that shall not be made manifest, nor hidden, that shall not be known and come abroad."- Luke 8:17

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: ++Lefebvre and sedevacantism
    « Reply #10 on: October 06, 2019, 04:10:34 PM »
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  • And with Francis' stacked deck, the next "pope" will make Francis look like Pius V.

    Certainly, unless God intervenes.


    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: ++Lefebvre and sedevacantism
    « Reply #11 on: October 06, 2019, 04:22:57 PM »
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  • Right, but while Francis would have been more lenient on the SSPX, +Lefebvre wasn't primarily about convenience.  When John Paul II got elected, the Archbishop was at first optimistic.  But when Assissi happened, that's when +Lefebvre came within a hair's breadth of becoming an open sedevacantist.  Bergoglio makes Wojtyla look like St. Pius X by comparison.
    I can see how you could come to that conclusion from certain principles though, and not merely from convenience.  But again, all I'm saying is its impossible to be sure.

    Offline hollingsworth

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    Re: ++Lefebvre and sedevacantism
    « Reply #12 on: October 06, 2019, 04:51:50 PM »
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  •  
    Quote
    But when Assissi happened, that's when +Lefebvre came within a hair's breadth of becoming an open sedevacantist.  Bergoglio makes Wojtyla look like St. Pius X by comparison.

    Undoubtedly true!  It might be a bit of hyperbole to say that Bergoglo's heresies dwarf Wojtyla's.  But point taken anyway.  Both of these men are antipopes in my humble opinion.
    What kinda bothers me is why +Williamson doesn't refer to this fact more often.  His patience with these unholy and non-Catholic anti-popes might be based in a (hidden?) agenda.  I don't know.  

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: ++Lefebvre and sedevacantism
    « Reply #13 on: October 06, 2019, 05:13:35 PM »
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  • What kinda bothers me is why +Williamson doesn't refer to this fact more often.

    How about because it was not a fact, and wasn’t true?

    Perhaps the man who had expelled “the 9” only 3 years prior was a little more stable in his position that you were?
    Romans 5:20 "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    -I retract any and all statements I have made that are incongruent with the True Faith, and apologize for ever having made them-

    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: ++Lefebvre and sedevacantism
    « Reply #14 on: October 06, 2019, 05:25:29 PM »
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  • How about because it was not a fact, and wasn’t true?

    Perhaps the man who had expelled “the 9” only 3 years prior was a little more stable in his position that you were?
    How do you explain the quotes?


     

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