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Author Topic: ++Lefebvre and sedevacantism  (Read 10427 times)

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Offline SeanJohnson

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Re: ++Lefebvre and sedevacantism
« Reply #210 on: October 10, 2019, 10:45:57 AM »
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  • There is already a break with the universal consent of bishops.  If you consider novus ordo bishops have a vote in this consent, then many of them have openly questioned +Francis.  If you do not consider novus ordo bishops to have a say in the "universal consent" (and I do not, being they are just as materially heretical as the post-V2 popes), then the lack of universal consent (which is near unanimous) among Trad bishops, is proof enough that every post-V2 pope was doubtful.
    False: There is not a single Bishop with jurisdiction who rejects Francis’ legitimacy.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: ++Lefebvre and sedevacantism
    « Reply #211 on: October 10, 2019, 11:23:24 AM »
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  • Nope: You are saying they are heretics for alleging they question a dogmatic fact.

    Idiot.  I have repeatedly said that what they are questioning is not dogmatic fact, while you repeatedly assert that what they are questioning is dogmatic fact.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: ++Lefebvre and sedevacantism
    « Reply #212 on: October 10, 2019, 11:28:21 AM »
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  • But all the Bishops with ordinary jurisdiction also accept Vatican II and the New Mass.  And while some might say Vatican II is technically not infallible, they aren't going to say that Vatican II was destructive to the faith or anything like that.  Not one.

    You once argued to me that even Athanasius Schneider (the very best bishop with jurisdiction at this point) isn't at all solid because the New Mass is displeasing to God.  Yet its universally accepted as *not* a sacrilege.

    I've said before I don't know whether its dogmatically certain that Francis is Pope.  I'm questioning the logic on which that is based.  I do think we should presume that he's the Pope unless/until we are told otherwise by competent authority.  But is it absolutely certain?  I don't know.  

    Absolutely.  Every single "bishop with jurisdiction" unanimously approves, endorses, and teaches Vatican II.  These R&R jokers hold that universal consensus backs Bergoglio but then claim that universal consensus is irrelevant in endorsing these errors and harmful disciplines.  Both are a function of the same, the infallibility of the Ecclesia Credens.  So if you must accept Bergoglio because of this universal consensus, then you must accept Vatican II and the New Mass by virtue of the very same universal consensus.  R&R are a bunch of hypocrites in atttempting to apply the universal acceptance criterion.

    Another example of R&R wanting to have their cake and eat it too, of maintaining contradictory propositions at the same time.  That is invariably the sign of intellectual dishonesty.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: ++Lefebvre and sedevacantism
    « Reply #213 on: October 10, 2019, 11:29:42 AM »
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  • False: There is not a single Bishop with jurisdiction who rejects Francis’ legitimacy.

    There is not a single Bishop with jurisdiction who rejects the New Mass or the teachings of Vatican II.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: ++Lefebvre and sedevacantism
    « Reply #214 on: October 10, 2019, 11:30:12 AM »
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  • Idiot.  I have repeatedly said that what they are questioning is not dogmatic fact, while you repeatedly assert that what they are questioning is dogmatic fact.

    Sweetie, hush now.

    :baby:

    There is not a single approved pre-conciliar theologian who has disputed that a universally accepted pope  is a dogmatic fact.

    Consequently, for you to impute to Lefebvre/Williamson the questioning of the conciliar papacies is to impute to them the questioning of a dogmatic fact (which Cartachini says is a “mortal sin against the faith”).
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: ++Lefebvre and sedevacantism
    « Reply #215 on: October 10, 2019, 11:33:13 AM »
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  • Sweetie, hush now.

    :baby:

    There is not a single approved pre-conciliar theologian who has disputed that a universally accepted pope  is a dogmatic fact.

    Consequently, for you to impute to Lefebvre/Williamson the questioning of the conciliar papacies is to impute to them the questioning of a dogmatic fact (which Cartachini says is a “mortal sin against the faith”).

    I'm not sure how much more I can take of your idiocy.  I am not disputing the teaching regarding dogmatic fact.  I am disputing whether there is universal acceptance of Bergoglio.  I say not.  You say there is.  Consequently, you claim that the papacy of Bergoglio is dogmatic fact, while I do not.  Since +Williamson has questioned his legitimacy, you need to hold that +Williamson is a heretic, but I do not.

    Your stupidity has reached levels that are breathtaking.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: ++Lefebvre and sedevacantism
    « Reply #216 on: October 10, 2019, 11:33:38 AM »
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  • Quote
    False: There is not a single Bishop with jurisdiction who rejects Francis’ legitimacy.

    On one hand, I could argue that not 1 novus ordo bishop has any jurisdiction due to their acceptance of V2 heresy.  Thus only leaving Trad bishops as those with 'supplied' or 'potential' jurisdiction.
    .
    On the other hand, assuming novus ordo bishops have jurisdiction, they would only possess material jurisdiction, as their spiritual jurisdiction is "impounded" (using Fr Chazal's terminology) due to acceptance of V2 heresy.
    .
    On a third hand, even if you assume novus ordo bishops have full jurisdiction, while they did not reject +Francis' election by way of media (as this would be the only way we were to hear of such things, and that's assuming the media would report honestly, if at all), there are other ways which opposition could have been made publically that we are unaware of (because public does not mean "known by all" but only "able to be known by all" in the sense that eventually it would come to light).  Being that I have no evidence of this, other than the support for the idea that +Benedict's resignation was invalid, I will assume it didn't happen.
    .
    Further, let's assume there was no public rejection of +Francis' election.  But this does not mean that doubts and challenges have not been made since, as Socci's book (who has a history of credible witnesses and sources from inside the Vatican) and other websites have statements from Vatican officials which suggest a growing idea that +Benedict is still pope and his resignation was invalid.  Certainly this is evidence of a rejection, even if after-the-fact.  One could argue that the false translation of +Benedict's resignation letter from latin to the vernacular is a cover-up and this would make the acceptance of +Francis' resignation invalid, because it was based on lies.
    .
    Finally, even if we assume that +Benedict's resignation was valid, +Francis' legitimacy is being openly questioned right now, as the "dubia" letter is direct evidence.
    .
    All of these scenarios have some truth to them and support a doubt to some degree.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: ++Lefebvre and sedevacantism
    « Reply #217 on: October 10, 2019, 11:33:49 AM »
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  • There is not a single Bishop with jurisdiction who rejects the New Mass or the teachings of Vatican II.

    Whoop-dee-do:

    I’m not defending those things as dogmatic facts.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: ++Lefebvre and sedevacantism
    « Reply #218 on: October 10, 2019, 11:35:35 AM »
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  • Consequently, for you to impute to Lefebvre/Williamson the questioning of the conciliar papacies is to impute to them the questioning of a dogmatic fact (which Cartachini says is a “mortal sin against the faith”).

    Does everyone need to cite these quotes for you again?  You are a dishonest liar if you claim that they have not questioned their legitimacy.

    You are begging the question in assuming that the legitimacy of Bergoglio is dogmatic fact, and then lying about whether or not +Lefebvre and +Williamson ever questioned their legitimacy.  So you are using a combination of two lies to come up with your deranged conclusion.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: ++Lefebvre and sedevacantism
    « Reply #219 on: October 10, 2019, 11:35:56 AM »
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  • On one hand, I could argue that not 1 novus ordo bishop has any jurisdiction due to their acceptance of V2 heresy.  Thus only leaving Trad bishops as those with 'supplied' or 'potential' jurisdiction.
    .
    On the other hand, assuming novus ordo bishops have jurisdiction, they would only possess material jurisdiction, as their spiritual jurisdiction is "impounded" (using Fr Chazal's terminology) due to acceptance of V2 heresy.
    .
    On a third hand, even if you assume novus ordo bishops have full jurisdiction, while they did not reject +Francis' election by way of media (as this would be the only way we were to hear of such things, and that's assuming the media would report honestly, if at all), there are other ways which opposition could have been made publically that we are unaware of (because public does not mean "known by all" but only "able to be known by all" in the sense that eventually it would come to light).  Being that I have no evidence of this, I will assume it didn't happen.
    .
    Further, let's assume there was no public rejection of +Francis' election.  But this does not mean that doubts and challenges have not been made since, as Socci's book (who has a history of credible witnesses and sources from inside the Vatican) and other websites have statements from Vatican officials which suggest a growing idea that +Benedict is still pope and his resignation was invalid.  Certainly this is evidence of a rejection, even if after-the-fact.  One could argue that the false translation of +Benedict's resignation letter from latin to the vernacular is a cover-up and this would make the acceptance of +Francis' resignation invalid, because it was based on lies.
    .
    Finally, even if we assume that +Benedict's resignation was valid, +Francis' legitimacy is being openly questioned right now, as the "dubia" letter is direct evidence.
    .
    All of these scenarios have some truth to them and support a doubt to some degree.

    You would have become an ecclesiavacantist in arguing nobody in the Church has jurisdiction, and would have become a heretic for asserting, then, that it had defected.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: ++Lefebvre and sedevacantism
    « Reply #220 on: October 10, 2019, 11:38:24 AM »
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  • Trad bishops have full spiritual jurisdiction, as did St Athanasius.  The novus ordo bishops would have material jurisdiction, which is the visible continuance of the Church.  This suffices.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: ++Lefebvre and sedevacantism
    « Reply #221 on: October 10, 2019, 11:38:53 AM »
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  • Whoop-dee-do:

    I’m not defending those things as dogmatic facts.

    You are a dishonested, retarded baboon.  First of all, these are not facts, but teachings and disciplines.  If you actually understood the notion of universal acceptance, you'd understand that theologians derived it from the infallibility of the Ecclesia Credens, based on the logical Major that the Church cannot universally embrace an erroneous rule of faith.  And yet, according to you, the Church CAN universally embrace grave doctrinal error and a harmful Mass.  Johnson, you are nothing short of a heretic who denies the indefectibility of the Church.  You are a manifest heretic, and are not a Catholic.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: ++Lefebvre and sedevacantism
    « Reply #222 on: October 10, 2019, 11:39:26 AM »
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  • Does everyone need to cite these quotes for you again?  You are a dishonest liar if you claim that they have not questioned their legitimacy.

    You are begging the question in assuming that the legitimacy of Bergoglio is dogmatic fact, and then lying about whether or not +Lefebvre and +Williamson ever questioned their legitimacy.  So you are using a combination of two lies to come up with your deranged conclusion.

    You can cite the quotes all you want, but you only demonstrate that you do not understand them:

    They are speaking of a future contingent action; of what may or may not transpire in the future.

    If, at some point in the future the pope should lose his universal acceptance among a large portion of the bishops, then his papacy would no longer be a dogmatic fact (and therefore, the papacy would become questionable).
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: ++Lefebvre and sedevacantism
    « Reply #223 on: October 10, 2019, 11:40:09 AM »
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  • Trad bishops have full spiritual jurisdiction, as did St Athanasius.  The novus ordo bishops would have material jurisdiction, which is the visible continuance of the Church.  This suffices.
    Supplied, not ordinary (ie., case by case, not habitual).
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: ++Lefebvre and sedevacantism
    « Reply #224 on: October 10, 2019, 11:42:39 AM »
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  • You can cite the quotes all you want, but you only demonstrate that you do not understand them:

    They are speaking of a future contingent action; of what may or may not transpire in the future.

    If, at some point in the future the pope should lose his universal acceptance among a large portion of the bishops, then his papacy would no longer be a dogmatic fact (and therefore, the papacy would become questionable).

    Another lie.  +Lefebvre was clearly saying that HE might have to conclude that Wojtyla is not the pope ... even before any such declaration by the Church.  +Williamson's quote was referring to all the V2 papal claimants, including all the past ones.