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Author Topic: ++Lefebvre and sedevacantism  (Read 10267 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: ++Lefebvre and sedevacantism
« Reply #225 on: October 10, 2019, 11:43:37 AM »
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  • Supplied, not ordinary (ie., case by case, not habitual).

    But no one has demonstrated that habitual ordinary jursidiction is required to avoid ecclesiavacantism; that is Pax's point and his distinction.  But it's above your mental capabilities.


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: ++Lefebvre and sedevacantism
    « Reply #226 on: October 10, 2019, 11:48:11 AM »
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  • You are a dishonested, retarded baboon.  First of all, these are not facts, but teachings and disciplines.  If you actually understood the notion of universal acceptance, you'd understand that theologians derived it from the infallibility of the Ecclesia Credens, based on the logical Major that the Church cannot universally embrace an erroneous rule of faith.  And yet, according to you, the Church CAN universally embrace grave doctrinal error and a harmful Mass.  Johnson, you are nothing short of a heretic who denies the indefectibility of the Church.  You are a manifest heretic, and are not a Catholic.

    Sweetie:

    I just love it when you make stuff up, and attribute it to others.

    You would do better to shut up, and learn something.

    1) Ladislaus says the opposite of every pre-conciliar theologian: A universally accepted pope is not a dogmatic fact.

    2) please quote where I say the Church can embrace grave doctrinal error (and please be careful to define “embrace”).

    3) please quote where I say the church can “embrace” a harmful rite of Mass, and be sure to explain the relevance of that allegation to the present issue.

    Ps: Sweetiepie, please explain why your denial of the universal consent of approved preconciliar theologians anyone should listen to your continual hot air?
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: ++Lefebvre and sedevacantism
    « Reply #227 on: October 10, 2019, 11:50:10 AM »
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  • Another lie.  +Lefebvre was clearly saying that HE might have to conclude that Wojtyla is not the pope ... even before any such declaration by the Church.  +Williamson's quote was referring to all the V2 papal claimants, including all the past ones.
    Oh yes:
    Please quote either one saying that which you attribute to them (ie., that they might have to conclude the popes are nopes, here and now, and on their own authority).
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: ++Lefebvre and sedevacantism
    « Reply #228 on: October 10, 2019, 11:52:52 AM »
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  • But no one has demonstrated that habitual ordinary jursidiction is required to avoid ecclesiavacantism; that is Pax's point and his distinction.  But it's above your mental capabilities.
    Honey-
    There, there.
    Please articulate how a church devoid of anyone with jurisdiction supplied by the pope (and lacking any pope, or hope of ever recovering a pope), and therefore a heirarchy, is not a church which has defected.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline CatholicInAmerica

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    Re: ++Lefebvre and sedevacantism
    « Reply #229 on: October 10, 2019, 12:22:05 PM »
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  • Honey-
    There, there.
    Please articulate how a church devoid of anyone with jurisdiction supplied by the pope (and lacking any pope, or hope of ever recovering a pope), and therefore a heirarchy, is not a church which has defected.
    A doubtful pope is not one at all..... 
    Pope St. Pius X pray for us


    Offline Nishant Xavier

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    Re: ++Lefebvre and sedevacantism
    « Reply #230 on: October 10, 2019, 01:03:39 PM »
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  • Its just confusing to me because those same bishops accept Vatican II.  So why can they all be wrong on the one but not the other?
    Vatican II is not infallible, there is nothing de fide defined in it. But yes, Vatican II can contain no heresy, otherwise the Church defected in 1965. Those who say otherwise are mistaken. Pope Pius IX said clearly in Etsi Multa that to say a Council fell into heresy denies Church indefectibility. But there are lot of grades of theological certitude between "de fide" and "heresy". Two main things in Vatican II are "ecuмenism" and "interfaith dialogue", these are not defined in strict terms at all. They are merely pastoral proposals. If anything is de fide with respect to them, it is de fide that we can and should work for the conversion of the separated to the Catholic Church.
    His Excellency Bishop Fellay docuмents that many Bishops consider many points of Vatican II to be "open questions": ""And then, from time to time, I receive letters. Like this one: I will read it to you in English because it is an image:

    “Stick to your guns. Always stick to your guns.” This means: Keep your hands on your revolvers. Hold them firmly. In other words: “Defend yourselves. Always. And refuse to compromise in these matters that do not really pertain to the substance of the faith: religious liberty, ecuмenism, dialogue with non-Christian religions. There are many of us in the hierarchy who think and believe in what you are doing about these questions.” It is a bishop who wrote that to me. He does not write “I”, he writes that there are many of “us”. He wrote other things too that I dare not read to you, they are so laudatory ... “Come to our aid.” And also: “Do not let go of anything, continue like this, we need it!” This is new! There was nothing like this before! The bishops used to tell us: obviously there are problems, but at the end of the day.... And here they are telling us: “Resist, we need it!” Actually they do not speak too loud because they know very well that if they do, they will be cutting off their own heads ... I am not telling you their names because we do not want to burn out these prelates, but there are several of them.

    I discover some, just like that, by surprise, and there are a certain number of them! And these are young bishops! And some of them were appointed by Pope Francis! He is not just appointing bad ones! He is all mixed up, like his whole attitude, which has also increased the general confusion. But it is extremely interesting to see that there is this movement, and I am certain that it will no longer stop. Why? Because these bishops see where the truth is, and they will not give in. They are annoyed, they are cornered, because they are in the system, but they will no longer give in. Just like these priests who have discovered the old Mass, they will do all that they can, they are annoyed, cornered, but they will keep it. These are skirmishes that have been won." http://fsspx.asia/en/content/23944

    And as mentioned here, http://catholicismhastheanswer.com/vatican-ii-must-be-clarified/ Vatican II is non-infallible, so lesser error than strict heresy is possible in theory. "Moreover, let us not forget that the canons of the Council of Trent and of Vatican I are de fide, whereas none of the decrees of Vatican II are de fide;The Second Vatican Council was pastoral in nature."- Dietrich Von Hildebrand. "The Second Vatican Council has not been treated as a part of the entire living Tradition of the Church, but as an end of Tradition, a new start from zero. The truth is that this particular Council defined no dogma at all, and deliberately chose to remain on a modest level, as a merely pastoral council; and yet many treat it as though it had made itself into a sort of superdogma which takes away the importance of all the rest."  -Cardinal Ratzinger (Now Pope Benedict XVI), address to the Chilean Bishops, 13 July 1988, Santiago Chile

    Also, Bishop Fellay said the Society Bishops, from the Holy Year forward, now have Ordinary Jurisdiction themselves: "As a result of the Pope’s act, during the Holy Year, we will have ordinary jurisdiction. In the image I mentioned, this has the effect of giving us the official insignia of firefighters, whereas such a status was denied us for decades. In itself, it adds nothing new for the Society, its members, or its faithful. Yet this ordinary jurisdiction will perhaps reassure people who are uneasy or others who until now did not dare to approach us."  From: https://damselofthefaith.wordpress.com/2015/12/01/ordinary-jurisdiction-for-the-year-of-mercy-bishop-fellay-says/

    So it's not true that every Bishop with Ordinary Jurisdiction in the Latin Church offers the New Mass today. The New Mass is a vastly inferior form of the Mass; it is truncated, partial and extrinsically deficient in comparison to the Traditional Mass, the True Mass of the Roman Rite. A new Mass would have at most like 1/100th of the Graces of the True Mass. Every well-informed Priest and Bishop should therefore make the decision to offer the TLM instead. After Summorum Pontificuм in 2007 and Universae Ecclesiae in 2011, it is quite possible for every Bishop to do this.  But it is neither invalid nor a Black Mass nor heretical, as +ABL also said in the 1980 letter to the Holy See cited earlier.

    Bp. Huonder is also another diocesan Bishop or Ordinary who is now, by the Grace of God, going to be offering the TLM exclusively.
    "We wish also to make amends for the insults to which Your Vicar on earth and Your Priests are everywhere subjected [above all by schismatic sedevacantists - Nishant Xavier], for the profanation, by conscious neglect or Terrible Acts of Sacrilege, of the very Sacrament of Your Divine Love; and lastly for the Public Crimes of Nations who resist the Rights and The Teaching Authority of the Church which You have founded." - Act of Reparation to the Sacred Heart of Lord Jesus.

    Offline CatholicInAmerica

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    Re: ++Lefebvre and sedevacantism
    « Reply #231 on: October 10, 2019, 01:20:40 PM »
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  • Vatican II is not infallible, there is nothing de fide defined in it. But yes, Vatican II can contain no heresy, otherwise the Church defected in 1965. Those who say otherwise are mistaken. Pope Pius IX said clearly in Etsi Multa that to say a Council fell into heresy denies Church indefectibility. But there are lot of grades of theological certitude between "de fide" and "heresy". Two main things in Vatican II are "ecuмenism" and "interfaith dialogue", these are not defined in strict terms at all. They are merely pastoral proposals. If anything is de fide with respect to them, it is de fide that we can and should work for the conversion of the separated to the Catholic Church.
    His Excellency Bishop Fellay docuмents that many Bishops consider many points of Vatican II to be "open questions": ""And then, from time to time, I receive letters. Like this one: I will read it to you in English because it is an image:

    “Stick to your guns. Always stick to your guns.” This means: Keep your hands on your revolvers. Hold them firmly. In other words: “Defend yourselves. Always. And refuse to compromise in these matters that do not really pertain to the substance of the faith: religious liberty, ecuмenism, dialogue with non-Christian religions. There are many of us in the hierarchy who think and believe in what you are doing about these questions.” It is a bishop who wrote that to me. He does not write “I”, he writes that there are many of “us”. He wrote other things too that I dare not read to you, they are so laudatory ... “Come to our aid.” And also: “Do not let go of anything, continue like this, we need it!” This is new! There was nothing like this before! The bishops used to tell us: obviously there are problems, but at the end of the day.... And here they are telling us: “Resist, we need it!” Actually they do not speak too loud because they know very well that if they do, they will be cutting off their own heads ... I am not telling you their names because we do not want to burn out these prelates, but there are several of them.

    I discover some, just like that, by surprise, and there are a certain number of them! And these are young bishops! And some of them were appointed by Pope Francis! He is not just appointing bad ones! He is all mixed up, like his whole attitude, which has also increased the general confusion. But it is extremely interesting to see that there is this movement, and I am certain that it will no longer stop. Why? Because these bishops see where the truth is, and they will not give in. They are annoyed, they are cornered, because they are in the system, but they will no longer give in. Just like these priests who have discovered the old Mass, they will do all that they can, they are annoyed, cornered, but they will keep it. These are skirmishes that have been won." http://fsspx.asia/en/content/23944

    And as mentioned here, http://catholicismhastheanswer.com/vatican-ii-must-be-clarified/ Vatican II is non-infallible, so lesser error than strict heresy is possible in theory. "Moreover, let us not forget that the canons of the Council of Trent and of Vatican I are de fide, whereas none of the decrees of Vatican II are de fide;The Second Vatican Council was pastoral in nature."- Dietrich Von Hildebrand. "The Second Vatican Council has not been treated as a part of the entire living Tradition of the Church, but as an end of Tradition, a new start from zero. The truth is that this particular Council defined no dogma at all, and deliberately chose to remain on a modest level, as a merely pastoral council; and yet many treat it as though it had made itself into a sort of superdogma which takes away the importance of all the rest."  -Cardinal Ratzinger (Now Pope Benedict XVI), address to the Chilean Bishops, 13 July 1988, Santiago Chile

    Also, Bishop Fellay said the Society Bishops, from the Holy Year forward, now have Ordinary Jurisdiction themselves: "As a result of the Pope’s act, during the Holy Year, we will have ordinary jurisdiction. In the image I mentioned, this has the effect of giving us the official insignia of firefighters, whereas such a status was denied us for decades. In itself, it adds nothing new for the Society, its members, or its faithful. Yet this ordinary jurisdiction will perhaps reassure people who are uneasy or others who until now did not dare to approach us."  From: https://damselofthefaith.wordpress.com/2015/12/01/ordinary-jurisdiction-for-the-year-of-mercy-bishop-fellay-says/

    So it's not true that every Bishop with Ordinary Jurisdiction in the Latin Church offers the New Mass today. The New Mass is a vastly inferior form of the Mass; it is truncated, partial and extrinsically deficient in comparison to the Traditional Mass, the True Mass of the Roman Rite. A new Mass would have at most like 1/100th of the Graces of the True Mass. Every well-informed Priest and Bishop should therefore make the decision to offer the TLM instead. After Summorum Pontificuм in 2007 and Universae Ecclesiae in 2011, it is quite possible for every Bishop to do this.  But it is neither invalid nor a Black Mass nor heretical, as +ABL also said in the 1980 letter to the Holy See cited earlier.

    Bp. Huonder is also another diocesan Bishop or Ordinary who is now, by the Grace of God, going to be offering the TLM exclusively.
    “Bishop” huonder the heretic is what you meant.
    Are we going to ignore Lefebvre calling the new mass a bastard rite? Are we going to go against Trent on the mass?
    Lol imagine having to rely on bergollio for jurisdiction..... ridiculous and outrageous. If you say that bergollio can give ordinary jurisdiction, then you must say that Lefebvre excommunication was valid and licit. Of the NRO and NREC was valid then there was no reason for Lefebvre to consecrate bishops. 
    Pope St. Pius X pray for us

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: ++Lefebvre and sedevacantism
    « Reply #232 on: October 10, 2019, 01:26:29 PM »
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    A new Mass would have at most like 1/100th of the Graces of the True Mass.
    Makes me feel better that modern science is able to solve the novus ordo problem, by mathematically calculating the liturgical sanctity of the new rite.  What else should they put their efforts towards?  Can they calculate how many QUADrillion (that's 1,000 trillion) of novus ordo-ites have gone to invalid masses when "for all" was used in the consecration formula?  +Benedict changed the formula back to "for many", so the invalid "for all" was used for 40+ years, times 52 sundays, times 1 billion catholics = approx. 2 QUADrillion.  Even if you assume half of that, it's 1 quadrillion.  That's a lot of invalid masses, which have NO graces.  0%.  zilch. 
    .
    It's insanity that people keep defending the novus ordo. 


    Offline Meg

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    Re: ++Lefebvre and sedevacantism
    « Reply #233 on: October 10, 2019, 01:29:33 PM »
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  • Vatican II is not infallible, there is nothing de fide defined in it. But yes, Vatican II can contain no heresy, otherwise the Church defected in 1965. Those who say otherwise are mistaken. Pope Pius IX said clearly in Etsi Multa that to say a Council fell into heresy denies Church indefectibility.


    There is good evidence that VII was not a real council. After all, it did not intend to do what actual Councils have ALWAYS done, which is to address, rebuke, and condemn error, and in that light to clarify true Church teaching. VII did not do that.

    I'm going mainly by what Fr. Gregory Hesse said as to why VII was not a valid council. It was his opinion, as a canon lawyer.
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline CatholicInAmerica

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    Re: ++Lefebvre and sedevacantism
    « Reply #234 on: October 10, 2019, 01:29:54 PM »
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  • Makes me feel better that modern science is able to solve the novus ordo problem, by mathematically calculating the liturgical sanctity of the new rite.  What else should they put their efforts towards?  Can they calculate how many QUADrillion (that's 1,000 trillion) of novus ordo-ites have gone to invalid masses when "for all" was used in the consecration formula?  +Benedict changed the formula back to "for many", so the invalid "for all" was used for 40+ years, times 52 sundays, times 1 billion catholics = approx. 2 QUADrillion.  Even if you assume half of that, it's 1 quadrillion.  That's a lot of invalid masses, which have NO graces.  0%.  zilch.
    .
    It's insanity that people keep defending the novus ordo.
    Your math is wrong a semi grace was given during the for all masses, a half grace is given at the modern “for many” novus ordo, bonus points for hand holding our father and +2 for every extra minister, -5 for every veil.
    Pope St. Pius X pray for us

    Offline CatholicInAmerica

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    Re: ++Lefebvre and sedevacantism
    « Reply #235 on: October 10, 2019, 01:34:48 PM »
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  • There is good evidence that VII was not a real council. After all, it did not intend to do what actual Councils have ALWAYS done, which is to address, rebuke, and condemn error, and in that light to clarify true Church teaching. VII did not do that.

    I'm going mainly by what Fr. Gregory Hesse said as to why VII was not a valid council. It was his opinion, as a canon lawyer.
    You should really discount what Hesse said as his defense of the NRO was that it is a schismatic rite and therefore can deviate from the form of the Roman rite, by that logic I can make my own rite and the words “eenie miney mo” is a valid form for consecration. 
    Pope St. Pius X pray for us


    Offline Meg

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    Re: ++Lefebvre and sedevacantism
    « Reply #236 on: October 10, 2019, 01:42:35 PM »
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  • You should really discount what Hesse said as his defense of the NRO was that it is a schismatic rite and therefore can deviate from the form of the Roman rite, by that logic I can make my own rite and the words “eenie miney mo” is a valid form for consecration.

    I have no idea what "NRO" means. Do you mean the Novus Ordo? If so, Fr. Hesse did believe that the Novus Ordo is a schismatic Mass. But.... it's a tad bit more complicated than just saying that one can make up his or her own "rite."

    I don't have any interest in getting further involved in a debate on what Fr. Hesse believed regarding the NO.

    Do you deny that VII deviated from all other Councils in not addressing and condemning error?
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline CatholicInAmerica

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    Re: ++Lefebvre and sedevacantism
    « Reply #237 on: October 10, 2019, 01:48:01 PM »
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  • I have no idea what "NRO" means. Do you mean the Novus Ordo? If so, Fr. Hesse did believe that the Novus Ordo is a schismatic Mass. But.... it's a tad bit more complicated than just saying that one can make up his or her own "rite."

    I don't have any interest in getting further involved in a debate on what Fr. Hesse believed regarding the NO.

    Do you deny that VII deviated from all other Councils in not addressing and condemning error?
    NRO is new rite of ordination. If you watch the video on “are novus ordo sacraments valid?” He makes a ridiculous argument to say that it is valid. VII is indeed heretical and is not a true council, as it was called by Roncalli, a heretic who could not have Been elected to the papacy.
    Pope St. Pius X pray for us

    Offline Meg

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    Re: ++Lefebvre and sedevacantism
    « Reply #238 on: October 10, 2019, 01:52:28 PM »
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  • NRO is new rite of ordination. If you watch the video on “are novus ordo sacraments valid?” He makes a ridiculous argument to say that it is valid. VII is indeed heretical and is not a true council, as it was called by Roncalli, a heretic who could not have Been elected to the papacy.

    Fr. Hesse did indeed believe that the new rite of ordination is valid. He was hardly alone among traditionalists in believing that. There is no consensus among traditionalists that the new rite of ordination is invalid. If you want to believe it's invalid, that's you choice.

    I'll ask again. If you are not comfortable in answering, that's fine. Do you deny that VII deviated from all other Councils in that it did not address and condemn error?
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: ++Lefebvre and sedevacantism
    « Reply #239 on: October 10, 2019, 01:53:04 PM »
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    Your math is wrong a semi grace was given during the for all masses, a half grace is given at the modern “for many” novus ordo, bonus points for hand holding our father and +2 for every extra minister, -5 for every veil.
    :laugh1:  Yes, good points.  I supposed there would be a +10 for the heretical con-celebrations with non-Catholic "ministers"?  What would "pride" masses offer... +50?!