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Author Topic: J’ACCUSE  (Read 11356 times)

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Online Gray2023

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Re: J’ACCUSE
« Reply #120 on: July 01, 2024, 02:59:36 PM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on June 30, 2024, 04:29:15 PM
    I reject sedism mainly for it's primary reason for existing, namely, disunity - as if trads need more of that. The whole idea has proven itself to be iniquitous.
    Where does this idea come from?

    I see that the one side wants to keep the government intact, so the church can continue and the people who believe this put Pope Francis' name in the Mass (sspx, resistance) but say you can't follow a bad pope.  Then you have the other idea that a heretic can't have authority in the church, so they choose to leave the Pope's name out of the Mass (cmri, sspv, rci) and say the seat is empty.  This is what is truly causing the emotional responses and divide. 

    A future Pope can only decide on this and previous Popes didn't think this could happen.  I know I keep beating a dead horse, but I just want both sides to pray and do penance,  so we can bring down the graces so God can fix His Church.

    The evil one loves the divide and we just keep feeding it.  we can't change others we can only change ourself.
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    1 Corinthians: Chapter 13 "4 Charity is patient, is kind: charity envieth not, dealeth not perversely; is not puffed up; 5 Is not ambitious, seeketh not her own, is not provoked to anger, thinketh no evil;"

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: J’ACCUSE
    « Reply #121 on: July 01, 2024, 03:07:01 PM »
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    • Quote from: Gray2023 on July 01, 2024, 02:59:36 PM
    Where does this idea come from?

    ... from his fertile imagination.  He's using it as an attempt to rationalize and justify his heresy.
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: J’ACCUSE
    « Reply #122 on: July 01, 2024, 03:10:41 PM »
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    • Quote from: Gray2023 on July 01, 2024, 02:59:36 PM
    Where does this idea come from?

    I see that the one side wants to keep the government intact, so the church can continue and the people who believe this put Pope Francis' name in the Mass (sspx, resistance) but say you can't follow a bad pope.  Then you have the other idea that a heretic can't have authority in the church, so they choose to leave the Pope's name out of the Mass (cmri, sspv, rci) and say the seat is empty.  This is what is truly causing the emotional responses and divide. 

    It's not just a difference of opinion on the pope issue. You still don't seem to understand that one side accuses the other of heresy quite frequently. Can you guess which side that is? You don't see an issue with this? 
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Online Gray2023

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    Re: J’ACCUSE
    « Reply #123 on: July 01, 2024, 03:18:57 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on July 01, 2024, 03:07:01 PM
    ... from his fertile imagination.  He's using it as an attempt to rationalize and justify his heresy.
    I don't understand why you keep going there.  What heresy exactly, I am too lazy to look back through all the posts?
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    1 Corinthians: Chapter 13 "4 Charity is patient, is kind: charity envieth not, dealeth not perversely; is not puffed up; 5 Is not ambitious, seeketh not her own, is not provoked to anger, thinketh no evil;"

    Online Gray2023

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    Re: J’ACCUSE
    « Reply #124 on: July 01, 2024, 03:23:49 PM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on July 01, 2024, 03:10:41 PM
    It's not just a difference of opinion on the pope issue. You still don't seem to understand that one side accuses the other of heresy quite frequently. Can you guess which side that is? You don't see an issue with this?
    I see that these are emotional buttons.  Sedeism is called schismatic and r and r is call heretics.  Both need to stop.  We are all outside Rome with no jurisdiction. The Church only supplies jurisdiction for the Sacraments because we are in a crisis.
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    1 Corinthians: Chapter 13 "4 Charity is patient, is kind: charity envieth not, dealeth not perversely; is not puffed up; 5 Is not ambitious, seeketh not her own, is not provoked to anger, thinketh no evil;"

    Offline Meg

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    Re: J’ACCUSE
    « Reply #125 on: July 01, 2024, 03:53:06 PM »
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    • Quote from: Gray2023 on July 01, 2024, 03:23:49 PM
    I see that these are emotional buttons.  Sedeism is called schismatic and r and r is call heretics.  Both need to stop.  We are all outside Rome with no jurisdiction. The Church only supplies jurisdiction for the Sacraments because we are in a crisis.

    Who on this forum has called a sedevacantist a schismatic? I certainly have not done so. 
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: J’ACCUSE
    « Reply #126 on: July 01, 2024, 04:33:20 PM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on July 01, 2024, 03:53:06 PM
    Who on this forum has called a sedevacantist a schismatic? I certainly have not done so.

    There have been numerous threads on the subject, declaring SVs to be schismatics ... though none in the more recent past.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: J’ACCUSE
    « Reply #127 on: July 01, 2024, 04:35:47 PM »
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    • Quote from: Gray2023 on July 01, 2024, 03:23:49 PM
    I see that these are emotional buttons.  Sedeism is called schismatic and r and r is call heretics.  Both need to stop.

    No, I don't agree.  Catholics care about doctrine and don't engage in the Novus Ordo "false irenicist" mentality.  If R&R consider me a schismatic, let them make the allegation ... and I'll defend myself.  At the same time, I'm not going to let certain articulations of R&R that are blatantly heretical stand.  There are a large numbers of Old Catholics disguised as Trads out there (in terms of their doctrine), and they need to be corrected on the matter.
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    Online Gray2023

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    Re: J’ACCUSE
    « Reply #128 on: July 01, 2024, 04:38:50 PM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on July 01, 2024, 03:53:06 PM
    Who on this forum has called a sedevacantist a schismatic? I certainly have not done so.
    Maybe I have misspoke?  Meg can you articulate what the main difference between your opinion on the matter and the sedes opinion is?
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    1 Corinthians: Chapter 13 "4 Charity is patient, is kind: charity envieth not, dealeth not perversely; is not puffed up; 5 Is not ambitious, seeketh not her own, is not provoked to anger, thinketh no evil;"

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: J’ACCUSE
    « Reply #129 on: July 01, 2024, 04:39:03 PM »
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    • Quote from: Gray2023 on July 01, 2024, 03:18:57 PM
    I don't understand why you keep going there.  What heresy exactly, I am too lazy to look back through all the posts?

    You articulated it yourself at one point.  It's the same heresy that +Vigano called out in his latest statement:
    Quote
    Is it possible then that the Church has begun to teach error? Can we believe that the one Ark of salvation is at the same time also an instrument of perdition for souls? That the Mystical Body separates itself from its Divine Head, Jesus Christ, making the Savior’s promise fail? This cannot, of course, be admissible, and those who support such an idea fall into heresy and schism.

    +Vigano is 100% correct.  Perhaps precisely because he hasn't been tainted with 40+ years of R&R "thinking", his mind is clear on this essential Catholic doctrine/dogma.

    You yourself admitted that the attribution of substantial corruption to the Magisterium effectively vindicates the Prots, Eastern Orthodox, and Old Catholics.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: J’ACCUSE
    « Reply #130 on: July 01, 2024, 04:40:07 PM »
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    • Quote from: Gray2023 on July 01, 2024, 04:38:50 PM
    Maybe I have misspoke?  Meg can you articulate what the main difference between your opinion on the matter and the sedes opinion is?

    That's been the issue with regard to Meg.  She's never once here on CI articulated the rationale for her position.  She simply makes drive-by slams/smears against SVs, derisive comments without any substance behind them.  Stubborn and others at least try to articulate their reasons, but I've never seen Meg make a post with any substance.  She just makes a post slamming "sedeism" but won't explain why it's wrong.  Perhaps she can't.
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: J’ACCUSE
    « Reply #131 on: July 01, 2024, 04:45:38 PM »
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    • Quote from: Gray2023 on July 01, 2024, 04:38:50 PM
    Maybe I have misspoke?  Meg can you articulate what the main difference between your opinion on the matter and the sedes opinion is?

    Which matter is that? We've been discussing the issue of how the sedes call R&R heretics. At least that's the subject that I've been trying to discuss. 

    You said that sedevacantists are called schismatics, but no one, to my knowledge, has actually called a sedevacantist that on this forum. Are you and Ladislaus trying to deflect away from this subject? That's the typical ploy here.
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Meg

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    Re: J’ACCUSE
    « Reply #132 on: July 01, 2024, 05:02:10 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on July 01, 2024, 04:33:20 PM
    There have been numerous threads on the subject, declaring SVs to be schismatics ... though none in the more recent past.

    Well, yes, sometimes a new forum member will show up; say, a fan of Sisco and Salza, and say that sedevacantism is schismatic. They are generally banned before very long. Can't have the sedevacantists have their feelings hurt by someone saying this. For the record, I personally don't believe that sedevacantism is schismatic.

    But it's just fine for sedevacantists to refer to R&R as heretics. No one (no sedevacantist anyway) is going to be banned for that.
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: J’ACCUSE
    « Reply #133 on: July 01, 2024, 06:55:11 PM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on July 01, 2024, 05:02:10 PM
    Well, yes, sometimes a new forum member will show up; say, a fan of Sisco and Salza, and say that sedevacantism is schismatic. They are generally banned before very long. Can't have the sedevacantists have their feelings hurt by someone saying this. For the record, I personally don't believe that sedevacantism is schismatic.

    But it's just fine for sedevacantists to refer to R&R as heretics. No one (no sedevacantist anyway) is going to be banned for that.
    Meg, I've been staying out of this recent "debate", but I have to interject to point out that the bolded is false.  There have been a number of these sedevacantists (called "dogmatic" sedes here) that Matthew has banned over the years. They typically don't last long.

    But I cannot remember the banning of a similar poster on the R&R side (and yes, there have been R&R posters that have called sedes non-Catholic or schismatic although not in recent times...SeanJohnson comes to mind).
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: J’ACCUSE
    « Reply #134 on: July 01, 2024, 06:58:08 PM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on July 01, 2024, 05:02:10 PM
    ... and say that sedevacantism is schismatic. They are generally banned before very long

    Yet another ridiculous lie.  It's been almost exclusively DOGMATIC SVs that are banned.  NAME ONE dogmatic R&R who was banned, for being dogmatic R&R.  I knew of only one who was banned, and he was banned for other reasons, namely, promoting bogus apparitions and a couple of meltdowns ... that was XavierSem.  Numerous dogmatic SVs have been banned, but very few dogmatic R&R have been.

    BTW, I'm not dogmatic SV.  I'm dogmatic indefectibilist (along the lines of what +Vigano said).  If you can articulate your R&R position in such a way that it does not undermine the Church's indefectibility and the nature of the Catholic Church and Papacy, I have no problem with it.  If you want to claim that Montini was replaced by a big-eared-crooked-nosed double, drugged, and held prisoner in the Vatican basement, and remained the pope, then I have no theological disagreement with you ... even if I think it's far-fetched.
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