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Author Topic: Is there a One Ring in Tradition, to rule them all?  (Read 26608 times)

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Offline SeanJohnson

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Re: Is there a One Ring in Tradition, to rule them all?
« Reply #135 on: June 04, 2021, 11:12:56 AM »
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  • Well, Fr. Voigt began working with Fr. Pfeiffer before he was conditionally ordained (this was before the conflict between Pfeiffer and Williamson), and when I started squawking about it on CI, Pfeiffer had him conditionally ordained by +Williamson.

    So not sure if that counts.

    But at least as regards the Resistance allied with the 4 bishops today, I am not aware of any clergy who were not at least conditionally ordained.

    The faithful are rightfully intolerant of even the slightest doubts regarding priestly validity.
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    Offline Comrade

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    Re: Is there a One Ring in Tradition, to rule them all?
    « Reply #136 on: June 04, 2021, 11:16:57 AM »
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  • Ok, since my fellow ex-seminarians utterly failed to answer this question for you, I will:

    DE FACTO the Resistance does have a position on this. Priests from the Novus Ordo are to be conditionally re-ordained. And the Resistance only makes use of known good or "certainly valid" bishops -- such as +Lefebvre-line.

    All priests working in the Resistance are either conditionally ordained by a +Lefebvre line bishop, or they were already ordained by one in the SSPX.
    Seems pretty straightforward to me. Classic SSPX position, once again.

    Is that really the Classic SSPX position? We know of NO priests that were not conditionally ordained even during +Lefebvre timeline. Also, I personally know of an NO priest, who was conditionally ordained by +Williamson, even though there was no positive doubt and it was done because people complained. 

    If the Resistance require conditional ordination, how does that apply to Francis? If there is a sacramental theological reason to doubt all NO priests, then we could easily come to the conclusion that Francis is at best a deacon or worst a layman.

    Side note concerning conditional sacraments: I have been finding that more protestant converts to NO church never had their protestant baptism investigated. And as they move to tradition, the neo-SSPX  does not investigate it either.


    Offline Matto

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    Re: Is there a One Ring in Tradition, to rule them all?
    « Reply #137 on: June 04, 2021, 11:21:03 AM »
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  • Side note concerning conditional sacraments: I have been finding that more protestant converts to NO church never had their protestant baptism investigated. And as they move to tradition, the neo-SSPX  does not investigate it either.
    I find it interesting that they perform conditional confirmations on demand to all who ask, but don't perform conditional baptisms or ordinations.
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    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: Is there a One Ring in Tradition, to rule them all?
    « Reply #138 on: June 05, 2021, 01:08:36 PM »
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  • Ok, since my fellow ex-seminarians utterly failed to answer this question for you, I will:

    DE FACTO the Resistance does have a position on this. Priests from the Novus Ordo are to be conditionally re-ordained. And the Resistance only makes use of known good or "certainly valid" bishops -- such as +Lefebvre-line.

    All priests working in the Resistance are either conditionally ordained by a +Lefebvre line bishop, or they were already ordained by one in the SSPX.
    Seems pretty straightforward to me. Classic SSPX position, once again.
    Didn't Lefebvre himself sometimes abstain from conditional ordinations?  I admittedly don't remember the details on this so maybe I'm wrong.  I'll see if I can find proof tomorrow or the next day.

    Offline Comrade

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    Re: Is there a One Ring in Tradition, to rule them all?
    « Reply #139 on: June 05, 2021, 02:24:45 PM »
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  • Didn't Lefebvre himself sometimes abstain from conditional ordinations?  I admittedly don't remember the details on this so maybe I'm wrong.  I'll see if I can find proof tomorrow or the next day.
    I asked the same question earlier, with no response.. Why would it take an ex seminarians to answer it?


    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: Is there a One Ring in Tradition, to rule them all?
    « Reply #140 on: June 05, 2021, 03:09:11 PM »
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  • I asked the same question earlier, with no response.. Why would it take an ex seminarians to answer it?
    And this is why I sometimes wonder if the difference between SSPV and resistance isn't as large as some may think.  Not that that's the worst thing in the world.  Lefebvre wasnt perfect and it's certainly better to be SSPV than liberal 

    Offline Hermes

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    Re: Is there a One Ring in Tradition, to rule them all?
    « Reply #141 on: July 23, 2021, 09:06:44 PM »
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  • Hermeneutic of Continuity


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    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Is there a One Ring in Tradition, to rule them all?
    « Reply #142 on: July 24, 2021, 12:02:02 AM »
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  • Didn't Lefebvre himself sometimes abstain from conditional ordinations?  I admittedly don't remember the details on this so maybe I'm wrong.  I'll see if I can find proof tomorrow or the next day.

    Irrelevant. +ABL died in 1991. Star Trek: TNG was only on Season 4. Bill Clinton wasn't even elected yet. The radio stations still played Eighties music, as most Nineties music hadn't been written or sung yet. My family finally bought their first computer (IBM clone "Laser") in 1992. Cost about $1200. 16 MHz 386, 2 MB RAM, 100 MB hard drive, VGA video card, dot matrix printer, 14" CRT monitor, 3.5" and 5" floppy drives, no sound card, no CD-ROM, modem had to be configured with jumpers and installed by user.

    We were only 20 years into a 50+ year Crisis. Perhaps there were more validly consecrated bishops at that point? Maybe more bishops could be expected to have the proper training and intention "to do what the Church does", and had the correct concept of what the Priesthood is?

    It's difficult to compare +ABL's prudential decisions in a DIFFERENT TIME about DIFFERENT MEN ordained by A DIFFERENT GENERATION OF BISHOPS. Not much in common there.

    The main idea is to be certain about an ordination. Not necessarily to conditionally ordain everyone, early and often. If the name of the game were to get as many conditional ordinations as possible to "increase certainty", then that would be a custom among priests and bishops. Priests would collect "conditional ordinations" from dozens of bishops like Pokemon or some kind of role-playing card game.
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Is there a One Ring in Tradition, to rule them all?
    « Reply #143 on: July 24, 2021, 12:05:37 AM »
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  • Quote
    Didn't Lefebvre himself sometimes abstain from conditional ordinations?
    Yes, because in the 70s and 80s, there were still priests alive who were ordained in the old rite.  There were still Bishops alive who were valid Bishops.

    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Is there a One Ring in Tradition, to rule them all?
    « Reply #144 on: July 24, 2021, 12:10:39 AM »
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  • Yes, because in the 70s and 80s, there were still priests alive who were ordained in the old rite.  There were still Bishops alive who were valid Bishops.

    Yeah, this thread got me thinking -- I only missed the first 7 years of the Crisis. With some basic addition, I can easily calculate how long the Crisis has gone on.

    When I was 15, I could remember 10 years of a 22 year Crisis. Less than 50%.

    Today, I can remember 40 years of a 50 year Crisis. That's over 80%.  Those first 7 years I wasn't born yet, and the next 5 years I was oblivious to the world, are becoming a smaller and smaller % of the Crisis, the longer the Crisis drags on.
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Is there a One Ring in Tradition, to rule them all?
    « Reply #145 on: July 24, 2021, 12:15:56 AM »
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  • Yes, historical context matters (in any topic).  If you don’t have the it, then many things don’t make sense.