Author Topic: Is there a One Ring in Tradition, to rule them all?  (Read 3133 times)

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Is there a One Ring in Tradition, to rule them all?
« on: August 31, 2019, 01:49:03 PM »
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  • It has been 50 years, and still no Traditional group has found the One Ring (argument) to rule them all.

    That is to say, a collection of explanation(s) and argument(s) before which all the groups crumble, resulting in a state where the Wielder of this "One Ring" becomes Master of Tradition (as it were) and whoever is left in the various other Traditional groups is 100% bad willed, resisting the truth out of stubbornness only.

    Because the arguments of this One Ring are so powerful that the only rebuttal is "I don't care about the truth", an ad-hominem, or some other logical fallacy.

    But the reality of the Traditional Catholic world today suggests that this One Ring either doesn't exist, hasn't been found, or isn't available for men to find -- because the Traditional world is divided, with many conflicting opinions, each of which is flawed in some way, with no group managing to come out on top or achieve much dominance, much less mastery over the others. The nail in the coffin? All Traditional groups, and even some non-Traditional ones, have men of good will to be found in them. If there were a One Ring, it would convince *everyone* of good will who was interested in the Truth. There would be no rational or logical excuses to stay in the "wrong" group any longer; all the objections would be answered in a satisfactory manner.

    My explanation is that God reserves this One Ring to Himself -- He has it right now with Him in heaven, and so none of us are going to be able to find it, much less wield it. God will choose to intervene at some point, at which point he will forge* and/or give said One Ring to his Great Monarch, Angelic Pope, etc. after a Chastisement or whenever He decides to end the Crisis.

    * I say "forge" because part of the power of this hypothetical Ring might be God's own testimony, with miracles, etc. so in that sense, the Ring wouldn't exist before God intervenes and works those miracles and/or appears to various individuals.

    (I'm a Lord of the Rings fan, re-reading it now actually for the first time in 18 years, so I'm using the Ring analogy here.)

    To refresh your memory about what the One Ring is:


    Offline Admin

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    Re: Is there a One Ring in Tradition, to rule them all?
    « Reply #1 on: August 31, 2019, 02:02:00 PM »
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  • Good-willed Catholics currently exist in many groups. Below are the arguments that WOULD JUSTIFY a Catholic of good will attending any of these groups. There are other arguments, and I don't have all day, but I'm giving a quick sample so you know what I mean:

    Conservative Novus Ordo: "We must stay within the authority and framework of the Catholic Church. Obedience is important. Christ promised perpetual successors to St. Peter. I do my best to do and believe everything a Catholic should. I obey my priest, bishop, and Pope unless they are clearly in error, which some of them are at times."

    FSSP: "What Conservative Novus Ordo said, but also the New Mass is defective and dangerous at least. We will play it safe and only say the Tridentine Mass and use the Rites that were used before Vatican II. Vatican II was extremely problematic at best. We will train our priests in separate seminaries so they get a fully Traditional or pre-Vatican II formation. We're OK with the new Rites of consecration and ordination, however."

    SSPX: "What FSSP said."  <----- Note how useless the SSPX is now, but I digress!

    Resistance: "Vatican II is heretical and destructive of souls, and we have 50 years of evidence to prove it. We should stay away from the Modernist contagion, lest we ourselves become infected. It is permitted to disobey a Pope when he steps outside his authority. God expects us to save our souls, and we need the Sacraments to do so. We have the right to cling to the Catholic Faith as it was always taught. We don't need the Pope or anyone else to give us permission to stay Catholic. But we can keep the Faith and pre-Vatican II religion without denying the papacy of the current Pope. Besides, the Pope has been validly elected and universally accepted by the Catholic Church. Also, the idea of a 60 year interregnum (period between popes) is ludicrous."

    Sedevacantists: "What Resistance said, except the stuff about the Pope. The Catholic Church can't promulgate a Mass noxious to souls. And what's the point of Our Lord's promise to St. Peter if his successor could actually be harmful to, and dismantle, the Catholic Church? The last several Popes aren't even Catholic, therefore they can't be heads of the Catholic Church. They are heretics. We know heresy when we see it."

    Home Aloners: "I stopped going to Mass after 1970 when the Catholic Church embraced Modernism and error. Yes I've heard about so-called "Traditional Catholics" here and there, but they have no authority from the Pope to operate independent churches. They have no authority to say Mass, much less hear confessions or witness marriages. These groups are like cut-off branches not connected to the main tree, which means they are dead. You can't get life (grace) from dead branches. So I stay at home with my Rosary, and live like the Japanese "hidden Christians" praying for God to end this chastisement."


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Is there a One Ring in Tradition, to rule them all?
    « Reply #2 on: August 31, 2019, 02:25:56 PM »
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  • this One Ring either doesn't exist, hasn't been found, or isn't available for men to find

    Well, clearly it does exist, objectively speaking ... as you stated latter in holding that God is keeping it to Himself.

    And it's also possible that one group or another has it right.  Or at least has it 90% right, or whatever.  It's also possible that some men of good will have it 90% wrong, for sincerity and good will do not preclude material error.

    Now the missing ingredient to having a 100% complete One Ring is in fact the authority of the teaching Church.  In times past when Catholics were divided on theological matters, the Church intervened, threw down the One Ring, and the matter was closed.  But that's not happening right now.

    Offline Admin

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    Re: Is there a One Ring in Tradition, to rule them all?
    « Reply #3 on: August 31, 2019, 02:47:10 PM »
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  • Indeed, the "who is right" can be argued about, and we can even reach moral certainty (enough to act on), but we don't have enough certainty OR AUTHORITY to be able to compel others, for example.

    We're all hoping that when God comes down and solves the Crisis, the group we joined is the closest to the truth. While good will and prudence certainly enter into it, nevertheless right now we each have to "pick our poison" about which unanswerable question is the least disturbing to us. And which position will outfit us the best to rejoin the mainstream Catholic Church when the whole mess is sorted out -- or give us the best shot at going to Heaven, if we will die during the Crisis. (How many Catholics have died since 1970?)

    I'll give you a hint: it probably isn't the home aloners. They believe the Traditional Movement is not legitimate, but also see the evils of the Novus Ordo. So they aren't used to attending Mass, so their children will probably all be apostate by the time the Crisis is sorted. "Religion is a habit of life."

    God gave us Reason, with which we exercise the virtue of Prudence. If we love the truth, acknowledge and attack error, always call a spade a spade, and "give the devil his due", there shouldn't be any huge surprises in store for us. Nor any worries that we'll go full Old Catholic when the Church is restored.

    Offline Praeter

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    Re: Is there a One Ring in Tradition, to rule them all?
    « Reply #4 on: August 31, 2019, 03:33:54 PM »
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  • ...right now we each have to "pick our poison" about which unanswerable question is the least disturbing to us.

    Maybe I'm in the minority, but there's nothing about the crisis in the Church that perplexes me, and no unanswerable questions - i.e., apparent contradictions between Catholic doctrine and what is taking place - that disturb me.  Perhaps there are unanswerable questions that I just haven't thought of, and which would perplex me if I did?

    I'm curious if most people here are struggling with such difficulties, and if so, what they are?
    "Schismatics are in another Church even if they agree with the true Church of Christ in faith and doctrine." (Bellarmine, De Ecclesia Militante cap v)


    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Is there a One Ring in Tradition, to rule them all?
    « Reply #5 on: August 31, 2019, 03:40:55 PM »
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  • "By their deeds you shall know them".

    Those seeking truth without seeking fortune, popularity, fame, accolades, relief from guilt of sin...….. will find truth and spiritual success in themselves and their children (their deeds), that is the sign I look for in groups like Novus Ordo, Indult, Fraternity, SSPX, Sedes.

    The success % in the Novus Ordo is atrocious, like maybe 1%

    The success in the Indult and Fraternity was considerable less than in the SSPX, but the SSPX today is going the way of the Fraternity, in a few years there will be no difference.

    The success of the SSPX is less than the Sede groups.
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Is there a One Ring in Tradition, to rule them all?
    « Reply #6 on: August 31, 2019, 03:45:01 PM »
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  • R&R is that ring.
    Romans 5:20 "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    -I retract any and all statements I have made that are incongruent with the True Faith, and apologize for ever having made them-

    Offline SimpleMan

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    Re: Is there a One Ring in Tradition, to rule them all?
    « Reply #7 on: August 31, 2019, 04:31:20 PM »
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  • FSSP: "What Conservative Novus Ordo said, but also the New Mass is defective and dangerous at least. We will play it safe and only say the Tridentine Mass and use the Rites that were used before Vatican II. Vatican II was extremely problematic at best. We will train our priests in separate seminaries so they get a fully Traditional or pre-Vatican II formation. We're OK with the new Rites of consecration and ordination, however."
    Does the FSSP go that far?  I didn't think they were permitted to teach that the Novus Ordo is, as you put it, "defective and dangerous", nor that Vatican II was "extremely problematic".


    Offline forlorn

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    Re: Is there a One Ring in Tradition, to rule them all?
    « Reply #8 on: September 01, 2019, 05:24:57 AM »
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  • R&R is that ring.
    SSPX or Resistance? 

    Offline Hodie

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    Re: Is there a One Ring in Tradition, to rule them all?
    « Reply #9 on: September 01, 2019, 06:11:03 AM »
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  • After Almighty God Himself, Archbishop Lefebvre holds "the ring." Every single traditional group who deviated from his guidance or never followed it in the first place, has compromised in some way with Vatican II/modernism. Sad.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Is there a One Ring in Tradition, to rule them all?
    « Reply #10 on: September 01, 2019, 06:18:24 AM »
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  • R&R is that ring.

    False.  You're missing Matthew's point.  All you're saying is that you think the R&R position is right.  Matthew is talking about whether anyone has such a slam-dunk position that all people of good will would rally around it.  Lots of good Catholics think that R&R is completely misguided (those in the Novus Ordo and sedevacantists).  And, then, even among R&R you have division:  SSPX vs. Resistance.  So if even R&R is divided, where the Ring ... as Matthew described it?  You clearly didn't understand Matthew's post.

    You make this post, and all someone has to do to respond is to post --
    Quote
    Sedeprivationism is that ring.

    to negate what you said.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Is there a One Ring in Tradition, to rule them all?
    « Reply #11 on: September 01, 2019, 06:19:21 AM »
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  • SSPX or Resistance?

    This response to SeanJohnson is all that's needed to negate what he wrote.  Even R&R is divided, so how can R&R be the Ring?

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Is there a One Ring in Tradition, to rule them all?
    « Reply #12 on: September 01, 2019, 06:21:49 AM »
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  • After Almighty God Himself, Archbishop Lefebvre holds "the ring." Every single traditional group who deviated from his guidance or never followed it in the first place, has compromised in some way with Vatican II/modernism. Sad.

    How have the sedevacantists compromised with Vatican II?  Again, if +Lefebvre had the Ring ... as Matthew explained it ... then there would not exist any Catholics of good will who did not follow him ... no Novus Ordo, no FFSP or motarians, no sedevacantists or sedeprivationists.  You missed Matthew's point also.  Some Catholics of good will think that they SHOULD "compromise with Vatican II".

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Is there a One Ring in Tradition, to rule them all?
    « Reply #13 on: September 01, 2019, 06:27:31 AM »
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  • Maybe I'm in the minority, but there's nothing about the crisis in the Church that perplexes me, and no unanswerable questions - i.e., apparent contradictions between Catholic doctrine and what is taking place - that disturb me.  Perhaps there are unanswerable questions that I just haven't thought of, and which would perplex me if I did?

    I'm curious if most people here are struggling with such difficulties, and if so, what they are?

    Seriously?  There's the core question of which is worse, a 60-year vacancy of the Holy See or a Magisterium and Universal Discipline of the Church that has gone completely off the rails and has been leading souls to hell for 60 years.  That's the chief fight between R&R and the sedevacantists.  R&R think the former is a worse problem for the Church's indefectibility, while the SVs think that the latter is the worse problem.  But both are absolutely a problem, and it takes a lot of arrogance to think that you're above it all.

    It's a grave problem, as +Lefebvre puts it (he himself was perplexed):
    Quote
    …a grave problem confronts the conscience and the faith of all Catholics since the beginning of Paul VI’s pontificate: how can a pope who is truly successor of Peter, to whom the assistance of the Holy Ghost has been promised, preside over the most radical and far-reaching destruction of the Church ever known, in so short a time, beyond what any heresiarch has ever achieved? This question must one day be answered…

    But I guess that you've succeeded in solving this problem where +Lefebvre failed.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Is there a One Ring in Tradition, to rule them all?
    « Reply #14 on: September 01, 2019, 06:30:45 AM »
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  • I sincerely believe that the following happend --

    Masons/Communists/Modernists had been infiltrating the hierarchy for decades and even centuries prior to Vatican II.  In the 1958 Conclave, Cardinal Siri was elected, but the Communists/Masons forced him to step down.  Then they installed their agent Roncalli in his place, the "uncanonically elected" pope described by a prophesy of St. Francis.  Once the smoking gun proof for this comes to light, then we'll have our ring.

    Then the Church will need to revisit the ecclesiological debates between R&R and the sedevacantists and settle those disputes as a matter of principle.

     

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