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Author Topic: Is there a One Ring in Tradition, to rule them all?  (Read 30052 times)

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Re: Is there a One Ring in Tradition, to rule them all?
« Reply #40 on: September 01, 2019, 08:42:18 PM »
Praetor, what’s the time limit for the sede vacante period?  Can you cite a Catholic source for it?

In Sacrae Theologiae Summa, 1B (lib 1, cap iii) , Salaverri answers this question in response to an objection that was raised against a teaching of Vatican I.   Here it the objection and reply:
 
Objection: The successor of St. Peter in the Primacy is like the foundation without which the Church cannot exist.  But without the Roman Pontiff, when the see is vacant, the Church exists. Therefore, the Roman Pontiff is not the successor of St. Peter in the Primacy.
 
I distinguish the major: The successor of St. Peter in the Primacy is like the primary foundation, principle and by his own right, without which the Church cannot exist, denied; he is like a secondary foundation, ministerial and with a vicarious right, I subdistinguish: without which [i.e., without a living Pope] and without the exigency together with the actual power arranged by him for the time of the vacant See, the Church cannot exist conceded; without which [without a living Pope], but with the exigency together with the actual power arranged for the time of the vacant See, the Church cannot exist, denied.”
 
 What he’s referring to when he speaks of those who were appointed by the prior Pope to govern the Church during the vacancy, are the Major Penitentiary, who has authority over the internal forum, such as granting absolution from excommunications that are reserved and giving dispensations, and the Camerlengo, who runs the Vatican state and handles the Church’s property and money during the vacancy. What he’s saying is that the Church cannot last after the death of a pope, and after the death of those he appointed to govern the Church during the vacancy. 

The exact number of years would obviously depend on how long they lived, but needless to say, those Pius XII and John XXIII appointed to run the Church after they died, have themselves been dead for many years.

Salaverri references Lucubratio theologica de Ecclesia et primatu Romani pontificis vacante Sede Apostolica: collata etiam Codicis Juris Canonici Doctrina (1919), by Antonio Maria Iannotta, as the authority for his position.  I have never read any theologian who denies this teaching of Salaverri and Ianotta.  

Offline Quo vadis Domine

  • Supporter
Re: Is there a One Ring in Tradition, to rule them all?
« Reply #41 on: September 01, 2019, 09:06:03 PM »
Well, my personal opinion is that it cannot go on for more than 14 years 6 months 35 days 2 hours 15 minutes and 23.5 seconds.  But some theologians hold that it's 15 minutes and 47.8 seconds.
:laugh2:


Re: Is there a One Ring in Tradition, to rule them all?
« Reply #42 on: September 01, 2019, 10:55:06 PM »
Where to begin...
First of all, an extended Sede Vacante is not *exactly* a failure of the Church's mission--error being taught to the Universal Church is.


You might believe in a Church that would fail in its mission if it taught error to the universal Church, but if so, you definitely don’t believe in the Roman Catholic Church, since it has never taught such a thing.

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And the Church still exists, materially, as per CT. The Church you describe has failed *formally* which means the gates of hell have prevailed.

Does the material Church you believe in (not sure what CT refers to) have a hierarchy consisting of validly ordained bishops who received their jurisdiction from a true successor of St. Peter?  If not, this is another confirmation that your “Material Church” is not the true Church founded by Christ, since the Church Christ founded will continue to exist as He constituted and founded it, and He constituted and founded it with a legitimate hierarchy of bishop with authority.  

The true Church also has four marks, one of which (apostolicity) also requires legitimate hierarchy consisting of bishops with jurisdiction – that is, validly ordained bishops with the authority to carry out the mission that Christ entrusted to His Church.  So, if your Material Church doesn’t have a hierarchy of bishops with authority to carry out the mission Christ entrusted to his Church (and they can only receive the authority to carry out that mission from a Pope), then your Church lacks a mark that the true Church will always possess.  This is yet another confirmation that the Material Church you believe in a false Church.

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And it is excessive to say the Magisterium has been leading souls to hell for 60 years? If someone holds to the errors of Vatican II; he cannot be pleasing to God. Traditionalists agree on that point.

What’s worse, holding to an error of Vatican II, or rejecting the true Church founded by Christ and believing in a false Church (one without four marks)?    Blessed are those today who believe in the true Church AND reject the errors of Vatican II.

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The next comment (referring to ++ABL) is against the very idea of the Papacy as Vatican I defined.

You’ll have to explain what your “Material Church” thinks Vatican I defined concerning the Papacy, which contradicts what I wrote, or what ABL wrote (not sure which you're referring to).

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Even Ordinary Magisterium cannot cause someone to embrace a false doctrine, nor should they ever refuse submission (oh, I don't know... if by submitting to the Magisterium I could come away with adultery being a venial sin, the Magisterium and Church would have defected).

There’s a lot to unpack there, but suffice it to say that the Church founded by Christ has never taught that the Pope is unable to err in a magisterial teaching that is addressed to the universal Church.  Perhaps the problem is that you’ve been reading the writings of the Old Catholic heretics, or their post-Conciliar counterparts - the sedevacantist – who say this is what the true Church teaches?  If so, don’t let them fool you.    Heretics always distort the meaning of Catholics dogmas by presenting them in an extreme sense.  They then present their straw man “dogma” before inexperienced Catholics, as if it's the teaching of the Church, and easily refute it, thereby giving the appearance of having refuted what their Church teaches.  This is a tried and true method of heretics. There's always a certain number of Catholics who fall for this trick and end by leaving the Church. Cardinal Franzelin discussed this tactic used by heretics in his celebrated book, On Divine Tradition:


“As the Fathers often explain, whenever Catholic truth stands midway between two opposite errors, heretics always preserve the Catholic dogma only to distort it by presenting it in an extreme sense in one direction or the other.  Then, what the Catholic Church does not in the least teach, is placed in this [distorted] way before the inexperienced, as though it were Catholic dogma, which can then be easily attacked.” (Franzelin, De Divina Traditione)

Why did Franzelin mention this common tactic of heretics?  Because the heretics he was discussing in the book used the same tactic. And who were those heretics?  It was none other than the old Catholic heretics 1.0 – the Neo-Protestants of the 19th century.  Franzelin explains that the way these heretics attacked the dogma of papal infallibility, was through the use of sophisms and specious arguments that had the effect of eliminating the distinction between infallible ex cathedra papal teachings, and non-infallible teachings of the Pope’s ordinary Magisterium, in the hope of convincing Catholics that everything the Pope teaches must now be considered infallible, according to Vatican I.  He writes:

“… no Catholic has ever denied, or can deny the necessity of distinguishing between ex cathedra definitions and other declarations, even doctrinal ones, whether of the Popes themselves or of Pontifical Congregations.  Enemies of the Holy See and those impugning infallibility alone try to eliminate this necessary distinction, which itself is contained in the decree of the Vatican definition, and especially today the Neo-Protestants [i.e., Old Catholics] do the same. (…) the teacher of Neo-Protestantism, Freidrich Schulte, in order to defend heresy and attack the dogma of papal infallibility, chiefly exerted all his strength and constructed sophisms to bring it to pass that the distinction between a definition ex cathedra, and other public docuмents and declarations of the Popes, is hollow, even to the point that all the declarations which the Pope promulgated or promulgates by the force of his pastoral office, in whatever way he does so, must be held as infallible definitions by Catholics after the Vatican Council.” (Franzelin, De Divina Traditione)

It’s surprising how successful this tactic was.  Even though anyone could have read the dogma of papal infallibility for himself and seen right through the lies of these heretics, nevertheless, as usual, there was a certain caliber of ignorant Catholics who fell for it – just as there’s a certain caliber of ignorant Catholic today who has fallen for the identical tactic of the sedevacantist heretics - not to prove the dogma of papal infallibility false, but in an attempt to prove that the subject of the dogma - the Popes - are false..  One difference is that the Old Catholics 2.0 (today’s Sedevacantists) go further than their heretical 19th century counterparts, by claiming Vatican I also ruled out the possibility that a pope can fall into heresy.  Not surprisingly, the same dupes fall for that one as well.

I’ll respond to the rest of your reply later.

Re: Is there a One Ring in Tradition, to rule them all?
« Reply #43 on: September 01, 2019, 11:42:39 PM »

You might believe in a Church that would fail in its mission if it taught error to the universal Church, but if so, you definitely don’t believe in the Roman Catholic Church, since it has never taught such a thing.


Does the material Church you believe in (not sure what CT refers to) have a hierarchy consisting of validly ordained bishops who received their jurisdiction from a true successor of St. Peter?  If not, this is another confirmation that your “Material Church” is not the true Church founded by Christ, since the Church Christ founded will continue to exist as He constituted and founded it, and He constituted and founded it with a legitimate hierarchy of bishop with authority. 

The true Church also has four marks, one of which (apostolicity) also requires legitimate hierarchy consisting of bishops with jurisdiction – that is, validly ordained bishops with the authority to carry out the mission that Christ entrusted to His Church.  So, if your Material Church doesn’t have a hierarchy of bishops with authority to carry out the mission Christ entrusted to his Church (and they can only receive the authority to carry out that mission from a Pope), then your Church lacks a mark that the true Church will always possess.  This is yet another confirmation that the Material Church you believe in a false Church.


What’s worse, holding to an error of Vatican II, or rejecting the true Church founded by Christ and believing in a false Church (one without four marks)?    Blessed are those today who believe in the true Church AND reject the errors of Vatican II.

You’ll have to explain what your “Material Church” thinks Vatican I defined concerning the Papacy, which contradicts what I wrote, or what ABL wrote (not sure which you're referring to).

There’s a lot to unpack there, but suffice it to say that the Church founded by Christ has never taught that the Pope is unable to err in a magisterial teaching that is addressed to the universal Church.  Perhaps the problem is that you’ve been reading the writings of the Old Catholic heretics, or their post-Conciliar counterparts - the sedevacantist – who say this is what the true Church teaches?  If so, don’t let them fool you.    Heretics always distort the meaning of Catholics dogmas by presenting them in an extreme sense.  They then present their straw man “dogma” before inexperienced Catholics, as if it's the teaching of the Church, and easily refute it, thereby giving the appearance of having refuted what their Church teaches.  This is a tried and true method of heretics. There's always a certain number of Catholics who fall for this trick and end by leaving the Church. Cardinal Franzelin discussed this tactic used by heretics in his celebrated book, On Divine Tradition:


“As the Fathers often explain, whenever Catholic truth stands midway between two opposite errors, heretics always preserve the Catholic dogma only to distort it by presenting it in an extreme sense in one direction or the other.  Then, what the Catholic Church does not in the least teach, is placed in this [distorted] way before the inexperienced, as though it were Catholic dogma, which can then be easily attacked.” (Franzelin, De Divina Traditione)

Why did Franzelin mention this common tactic of heretics?  Because the heretics he was discussing in the book used the same tactic. And who were those heretics?  It was none other than the old Catholic heretics 1.0 – the Neo-Protestants of the 19th century.  Franzelin explains that the way these heretics attacked the dogma of papal infallibility, was through the use of sophisms and specious arguments that had the effect of eliminating the distinction between infallible ex cathedra papal teachings, and non-infallible teachings of the Pope’s ordinary Magisterium, in the hope of convincing Catholics that everything the Pope teaches must now be considered infallible, according to Vatican I.  He writes:

“… no Catholic has ever denied, or can deny the necessity of distinguishing between ex cathedra definitions and other declarations, even doctrinal ones, whether of the Popes themselves or of Pontifical Congregations.  Enemies of the Holy See and those impugning infallibility alone try to eliminate this necessary distinction, which itself is contained in the decree of the Vatican definition, and especially today the Neo-Protestants [i.e., Old Catholics] do the same. (…) the teacher of Neo-Protestantism, Freidrich Schulte, in order to defend heresy and attack the dogma of papal infallibility, chiefly exerted all his strength and constructed sophisms to bring it to pass that the distinction between a definition ex cathedra, and other public docuмents and declarations of the Popes, is hollow, even to the point that all the declarations which the Pope promulgated or promulgates by the force of his pastoral office, in whatever way he does so, must be held as infallible definitions by Catholics after the Vatican Council.” (Franzelin, De Divina Traditione)

It’s surprising how successful this tactic was.  Even though anyone could have read the dogma of papal infallibility for himself and seen right through the lies of these heretics, nevertheless, as usual, there was a certain caliber of ignorant Catholics who fell for it – just as there’s a certain caliber of ignorant Catholic today who has fallen for the identical tactic of the sedevacantist heretics - not to prove the dogma of papal infallibility false, but in an attempt to prove that the subject of the dogma - the Popes - are false..  One difference is that the Old Catholics 2.0 (today’s Sedevacantists) go further than their heretical 19th century counterparts, by claiming Vatican I also ruled out the possibility that a pope can fall into heresy.  Not surprisingly, the same dupes fall for that one as well.

I’ll respond to the rest of your reply later.

The indefectibility and spotless/blemish-free nature of the Church and Her teaching is nothing novel. In fact, why would I follow an unholy Church that can contradict itself in so many ways, obliterate the traditional Faith and enforce a religion of modernism? Our religion is then worthless and Christ is liar... which is impossible.
Pope St. Gelasius I, Decretal de recipiendis et non recipiendis libris, 495: “Accordingly, the see of Peter the Apostle of the Church of Rome is first, having neither spot, nor wrinkle, nor anything of this kind (Ephesians 5:27).”

CT refers to the Cassiciacuм Thesis, also known as sedeprivationism. There is a historical precedent for this position (Antipope cardinals being able to elect valid Popes) and the formal/material distinction is nothing novel. It was penned by Pius XII's confessor, and the man who helped with the Assumption dogma + Ottaviani intervention... so not exactly a nobody. Your point about Apostolicity is moot--none of the actual traditional/valid (Old Rite) Bishops have Ordinary Jurisdiction. But, we could even say Ordinary Jurisdiction still exists; because the Eastern Rite Bishops are valid. I believe in a false Church? I don't believe in a Catholic Church that can teach substantial error from an Ecuмenical Council. You do, likely because you will claim it was "pastoral"--that means nothing. Magisterium is teaching to the universal Church from a valid hierarchy. When all the Bishops teach in union with the Pope, it's infallible. The only explanation is that Paul VI did not have the assistance of the Holy Ghost.

You cannot say that Vatican II CAN come from the authority of the Church AND contain substantial error. It's then either Extraordinary Magisterium or Universal Ordinary Magisterium, both of which have to be infallible. If infallible teaching can contain error, the Catholic Church is not the Church of Jesus Christ. Please, point me to a traditional dogmatic theology book that teaches that an Ecuмenical Council/UOM can teach contrary to the Catholic faith; and so ignominiously that we have to REJECT it to remain Catholic!

the Church founded by Christ has never taught that the Pope is unable to err in a magisterial teaching addressed to the universal Church? Are you serious? Please, look into the traditional teaching of the Church.
https://tradicat.blogspot.com/2013/03/authority-of-papal-encyclicals.html

The ending of your post seems to be another R&R myth--that Magisterium is "subordinate" to Dogma... true, but the Magisterium is what a Catholic is supposed to follow. If I can't follow the Magisterium without believing in a false faith, the Church has defected. It's really not that hard to understand... all the R&R bloviating for the past 50 years is just misdirection and an avoidance of the issue... a defection of the Church if the Conciliar Popes are Catholic. I also forgot to say before, the idea that the Church can promulgate a defective rite is false.

Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: Is there a One Ring in Tradition, to rule them all?
« Reply #44 on: September 02, 2019, 12:06:48 AM »
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The indefectibility and spotless/blemish-free nature of the Church and Her teaching is nothing novel.
Indefectibility means the Church, as an organization, will last til the end of time.  It has nothing to do with the purity of the Church's teachings, which is related to infallibility.  You can't mix and match these two characters.
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the Magisterium is what a Catholic is supposed to follow. If I can't follow the Magisterium without believing in a false faith, the Church has defected.
We are supposed to follow the UNIVERSAL magisterium (i.e. what has always been taught), not simply the current magisterium (which is fallible).  That's why it's called "Tradition" because it follows the maxim:  ubique, semper, et ab omnibus  (as St Vincent below explains).
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St. Vincent of Lerins - “Moreover, in the Church itself, all possible care must be taken that we hold that faith which has been believed everywhere, always, and by all.”
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If the current magisterium deviates from Tradition, they are anathema.  V2 is not imposed on any catholic under pain of sin; it is part of the ordinary/fallible magisterium.  This in no way impairs indefectibility because the continuance of the Church is not dependent upon the sanctity or orthodoxy of its Cardinals (including the hierarchy) but it depends on the organizational structure surviving which includes the lower clergy and laity.  As St Athanasius said during the Arian heresy, when 95% of the catholic world was heretical (including most of the hierarchy):
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"Even if Catholics faithful to Tradition are reduced to a handful, they are the ones who are the true Church of Jesus Christ."
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Currently, we are in the same predicament (and worse) than during the Arian crisis.  99% of the hierarchy/laity are heretics.  Those catholics who hold the pure, unblemished Faith are very few.  The Church still exists in these few, as Christ promised.