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Author Topic: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?  (Read 10399 times)

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Offline gladius_veritatis

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Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
« Reply #45 on: May 14, 2022, 11:17:28 PM »
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    • Quote from: epiphany on May 14, 2022, 10:52:47 PM
    B) if he was in the habit of having sex with others while courting the new wife and she didn't know about it, he didn't tell anyone, and he continued adultery in the marriage, that would invalidate...

    A man could be banging every woman within 100 miles -- before, during and after the nuptials -- and it would not necessarily change anything, whether the woman knew of it or not.  You are an ignorant little punk who should refrain from commenting further about these matters.
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    Offline josefamenendez

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    Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
    « Reply #46 on: May 14, 2022, 11:53:07 PM »
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    • Quote from: Yeti on May 14, 2022, 11:14:21 PM
    Only if he was blackout-blitzed during the ceremony, which you think someone would notice. Sheesh, where do you people get this garbage?



    No. An immature person can contract marriage like anyone else.


    And no one noticed the shotgun pointing at him from one of the pews? Come on, people, get real.



    Can you please cite a theologian who teaches this.



    Theologian? Who said this?

    Wow, we got a lot of Novus Ordo people on this thread. These are all errors of the Novus Ordo sect designed to allow people to violate the laws of Catholic marriage. These errors from you and Epiphany are inventions of the Novus Ordo false church and do not exist in any pre-Vatican II theologian or theological treatise, and are contrary to Catholic tradition.

    If even half of the reasons you and Epiphany have given for invalidating marriage were Catholic, the Church would have been handing out tens of thousands of marriage annulments every year for the last 2,000 years, which obviously it hasn't. How do you explain this?

    I'm happy to be proved wrong if you want to give us some docuмentation.
    I got it from people in my family and friends who went through the annulment process and tribunal . Yes it was Novus Ordo annulments because there isn’t any other kind . All of the reasons I gave were the reasons their annulments were granted . I never said I agreed with this , in fact I am the OP who is asking if a trad can legitimately even get an annulment since it has to go through Rome.
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    Offline SimpleMan

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    Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
    « Reply #47 on: May 15, 2022, 12:24:56 AM »
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    • Quote from: epiphany on May 14, 2022, 10:59:08 PM
    No.  Annulments can only come from rome.

    I understand that (i.e., either from Rome or from a diocese which has this authority delegated to it by Rome, or are you referring to pre-Vatican II norms, i.e., before V2, did dioceses make declarations of nullity on their own? --- I honestly don't know).

    I was just referring to a scenario where it is an open-and-shut, no-doubt-about-it, example of an invalid marriage due to lack of form ("Catholic marries Buddhist in the gondola of a hot air balloon over the Napa Valley with the Dalai Lama officiating"), and that this can be proven by docuмentary evidence that the traditional priest has right there in front of him.  Would the answer still be "nope, not good enough, Rome (or the diocese) has to sign off on this, otherwise, regardless of the evidence, we have to assume the marriage is valid until we get that sign-off"?

    And might there be some provision for epikeia in the perceived absence of proper authority to make such a judgment?  "Well, we can't get the sign-off because there is no Pope and there is no competent authority to do it (that would be one particular flavor of SV, there are many, the See can be vacant and the rest of the Church can remain intact, as happens during every interregnum), so we'll accept what we have, rather than continuing to regard Brenda as being in a valid marriage, or rather, a marriage that has not been proven invalid"?
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    Offline Nadir

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    Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
    « Reply #48 on: May 15, 2022, 12:27:15 AM »
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    • Quote from: epiphany on May 14, 2022, 10:52:47 PM
    B) if he was in the habit of having sex with others while courting the new wife and she didn't know about it, he didn't tell anyone, and he continued adultery in the marriage, that would invalidate...
    The sinfulness of the spouse does not invalidate a marriage. 
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    Offline josefamenendez

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    Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
    « Reply #49 on: May 15, 2022, 05:20:24 AM »
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    • Quote from: Nadir on May 15, 2022, 12:27:15 AM
    The sinfulness of the spouse does not invalidate a marriage.
    If the spouse is lying and unfaithful at the time of the ceremony and the other spouse has no knowledge of it, hasn't the marriage contract  been voided because of the deceit at the time of the matrimonial ceremony? When does the Pauline Principle come into play?
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    Offline Nadir

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    Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
    « Reply #50 on: May 15, 2022, 06:15:44 AM »
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    • Quote from: Miser Peccator on May 14, 2022, 01:49:13 PM
    going to a strip club with his groomsmen and getting a lap dance the night before the wedding?
    Matthew commented, answering in the negative, to which Epiphany responded after comments by others, with
    Quote from: epiphany on May 14, 2022, 11:00:36 PM
    Any serious lie before marriage invalidates the traditional Catholic vow. 

    I responded with
    Quote from: Nadir on May 15, 2022, 12:27:15 AM
    The sinfulness of the spouse does not invalidate a marriage.
    Now I am no theologian but if sins committed (in this case a serious lie) before marriage could invalidate the marriage, then who could possibly be validly married? 

    Your question, Josefa, is referring to dishonesty at the very moment of the vow making, which I can’t answer. That is for a qualified person to decide.

    Did you mean Pauline principle or Pauline privilege? I don’t know what the former is.
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    Online 2Vermont

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    Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
    « Reply #51 on: May 15, 2022, 06:20:31 AM »
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    • It seems to me that, given only a few hundred annulments were handed out by the Church prior to Vatican II, a VERY large percentage of married couples didn't live their married lives even considering annulment as an option.  Therefore, Trad couples who don't believe the post Vatican II hierarchy gives out true annulments/has authority would then live the same way.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
    « Reply #52 on: May 15, 2022, 06:44:32 AM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on May 14, 2022, 12:58:50 PM
    The not wanting children *might* be invalidating.  But hard to prove.  That’s why the Church requires marriage classes.  If you go through that process, that’s proof you agree with (and we’re told) the marriage requirements.

    Yes, someone has argued that there are in fact more null marriages out there today than before Vatican II, precisely because of poor preparation and that the couples have the mentality of either 1) if this doesn't work out, I'll just get a divorce (annulment) and 2) not wanting to have children (going in deciding you're going to contracept).  Certainly the NO preparation for marriage is deplorable and there are tons of people married in the NO with these attitudes.  If I were a Traditional priest, preparing a couple for marriage, I would require that they sign a docuмent assenting to all the conditions for a valid marriage.

    But on these grounds, which speak to a person's intent at the time of marriage, I would still refuse to grant an annulment.  How difficult would it be for someone to simply claim "yeah, I never wanted to have children" after they decide that they don't want to be married to their spouse anymore?  I knew a guy in the NO who got an annulment after 20 years of marriage, several children ... and the wife worked for the parish office (so they were rather "dedicated" NO Catholics).  And the guy could just get his buddy to come testify, "yeah, when I knew him he told me he didn't want any kids."  My feeling is, if you didn't know, you should have, and that's culpable ignorance on your part.  Go talk to the NO priest who prepared you for marriage.  Annulment denied.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
    « Reply #53 on: May 15, 2022, 07:01:51 AM »
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    • Sinful behavior at the time of marriage (or just before or after marriage) MIGHT speak to some intent or it might not, so by itself it means nothing.  People sin all the time despite on one level not "wanting" to sin.

    What is key is not behavior but the disposition of the will.  Such a thing might be adduced before a marriage tribunal as one piece of evidence (much more would be required) of no intent to be married, but there are quite a few degenerates these days who have the attitude that they're going to have one last fling before marriage because they are forced to settle down.  In fact, they have the fling with the thought that they'll be prevented (by marriage) from being able to indulge in such things ... which is an implicit acknowledgment of the intent to remain faithful during marriage.  Anything short of clearcut legal things like prior marriage is very nebulous, and the NO can't be trusted as far as 450-lb. Father Bob can be thrown to properly adjudicate an annulment, given their track-record of declaring annulments on the flimsiest grounds.

    Nevertheless, my attitude now is that given the vacuum of authority, I can't impose my judgments or conscience on anyone else.  I've known (even Traditional) couples who had gotten annulments and got married again, and I basically treat them as if they were a legitimate couple.  If I were a priest, I would not refuse them the Sacraments.  I would advise them that they are at great risk of losing their souls, but that's as far as my role as non-pastor would go.
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    Offline epiphany

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    Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
    « Reply #54 on: May 15, 2022, 11:14:58 AM »
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    • Quote from: gladius_veritatis on May 14, 2022, 11:03:57 PM
    Only if it can be PROVED that is was a lie AT THE TIME the vow was taken. 
    Correct.
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    Offline epiphany

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    Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
    « Reply #55 on: May 15, 2022, 11:15:50 AM »
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    • Quote from: gladius_veritatis on May 14, 2022, 11:08:51 PM
    It rhymes with hero...as in ZERO.  He's talking nonsense.
    "As a whiny, lazy punk who asks for sources he could get himself, that you would offer such groundless, trash input on such a serious matter is most disconcerting, although not remotely surprising"

    "Get off your lazy ass and just search for it."
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    Offline epiphany

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    Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
    « Reply #56 on: May 15, 2022, 11:16:25 AM »
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    • Quote from: Yeti on May 14, 2022, 11:06:28 PM
    No, it wouldn't. What is your proof for this bizarre claim? What Catholic theologians can you cite in favor of this statement?
    Talk to a traditional Catholic priest you trust.  They will tell you and show you.
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    Offline epiphany

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    Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
    « Reply #57 on: May 15, 2022, 11:17:37 AM »
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    • Quote from: gladius_veritatis on May 14, 2022, 11:17:28 PM
    A man could be banging every woman within 100 miles -- before, during and after the nuptials -- and it would not necessarily change anything, whether the woman knew of it or not.  You are an ignorant little punk who should refrain from commenting further about these matters.
    Wrong. 
    "Get off your lazy ass and just search for it."
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    Offline epiphany

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    Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
    « Reply #58 on: May 15, 2022, 11:24:15 AM »
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    • Quote from: josefamenendez on May 15, 2022, 05:20:24 AM
    If the spouse is lying and unfaithful at the time of the ceremony and the other spouse has no knowledge of it, hasn't the marriage contract  been voided because of the deceit at the time of the matrimonial ceremony? 
    Correct
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
    « Reply #59 on: May 15, 2022, 02:35:20 PM »
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    Any serious lie before marriage invalidates the traditional Catholic vow.
    Matrimony, just like all other sacraments, have rules in canon law.  Your above "definition" is WAY too vague and would never be accurate, because canon law requires precise definitions and meaning.  There's nothing at all in the orthodox/traditional 1917 code which supports your claim.


    A "serious lie"?  Define "serious" and define "lie"...from canon law, please.

    :jester:  I can imagine a couple 7 years into their marriage, with 2-3 children, who hate each other.  The husband complains that he doesn't like what's for dinner and wife says "Oh, but this is my mother's meatloaf recipe and when we were dating, you said you LOVED it.  This is a "serious lie" and i'm getting an annulment."  Don't think stuff like this hasn't happened.  When V2 opened the door to "catholic divorce" by allowing annulments for "serious lies" then the horse is out of the barn, and chaos is the order of the deal. P
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