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Author Topic: How many Trads are ACCIDENTALLY Sede, R and R, etc  (Read 638 times)

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Offline Matthew

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How many Trads are ACCIDENTALLY Sede, R and R, etc
« on: January 02, 2021, 05:13:37 PM »
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  • With many opinions and positions, I believe these fall into the lap of most Trads. They don't seek them out impartially at any point.

    This goes for choice of Missal, version of Holy Week rites, etc.

    But even something as fundamental as "Sedevacantism or no" often comes down to WHAT TRAD CHAPEL IS IN MY AREA. You'd be surprised how many people lock themselves into (or "grew into") a position AFTER they locked themselves into a geographical location by purchasing a home there. They started attending Mass at the only TLM chapel in their area, or maybe one person (relative, friend, online acquaintance) happened to point them to a single chapel. They went there once, then again, then again, and then they become a regular parishioner. In the successive years they got taught all the positions of that chapel (SSPX, Sede) and they became "Recognize and Resist" or "Sedevacantist".

    But it's not like they sat down for a year of research and objectively considered the pro/con arguments and evidence for each... Let's be realistic here.

    Or how many Catholics were in the wasteland of the Novus Ordo, and the first Trad priest they met was a holy saint by comparison -- they're sold! The priest reverently celebrated the True Mass, didn't teach any heresy, promoted traditional devotions -- this chapel is good. The position of this priest/chapel is also clearly good! And so forth.
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    Offline Clemens Maria

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    Re: How many Trads are ACCIDENTALLY Sede, R and R, etc
    « Reply #1 on: January 02, 2021, 07:49:32 PM »
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  • With many opinions and positions, I believe these fall into the lap of most Trads. They don't seek them out impartially at any point.

    This goes for choice of Missal, version of Holy Week rites, etc.

    But even something as fundamental as "Sedevacantism or no" often comes down to WHAT TRAD CHAPEL IS IN MY AREA. You'd be surprised how many people lock themselves into (or "grew into") a position AFTER they locked themselves into a geographical location by purchasing a home there. They started attending Mass at the only TLM chapel in their area, or maybe one person (relative, friend, online acquaintance) happened to point them to a single chapel. They went there once, then again, then again, and then they become a regular parishioner. In the successive years they got taught all the positions of that chapel (SSPX, Sede) and they became "Recognize and Resist" or "Sedevacantist".

    But it's not like they sat down for a year of research and objectively considered the pro/con arguments and evidence for each... Let's be realistic here.

    Or how many Catholics were in the wasteland of the Novus Ordo, and the first Trad priest they met was a holy saint by comparison -- they're sold! The priest reverently celebrated the True Mass, didn't teach any heresy, promoted traditional devotions -- this chapel is good. The position of this priest/chapel is also clearly good! And so forth.
    That's not my experience at all.  And in my area (Boston, MA), we have sede, r&r, diocesan-approved and independent options.  I went from indult (2004-2007) to SSPX (2007-2013) to resistance (2012-2013) to sede (2014-present).  And many of the people who went to the indult with me are now sede, either because they went direct to the sede chapel or they went through some other path.  And more and more are joining every day.  The sede chapel is experiencing huge growth rate just in the past year.  Very few of the SSPX people went to the resistance.  Some bounced back and forth between the SSPX and the sede chapel.  Some went home alone.  Some went MHFM anti-bod and sede.  Some people probably do adjust their views based on the chapel they go to.  But there are plenty who hold a certain position with regard to various issues and do not change it to fit in better at their chapel.  In my experience, Traditionalist Catholics are the least likely to be swayed by human respect.  But peer pressure is tremendously powerful so it's not surprising that even trads get caught up in it.


    Offline Matthew

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    Re: How many Trads are ACCIDENTALLY Sede, R and R, etc
    « Reply #2 on: January 03, 2021, 09:14:41 AM »
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  • In my experience, Traditionalist Catholics are the least likely to be swayed by human respect. 

    Except when they are -- or when it's a subject (like Mass and chapels) that they frankly don't care a whole lot about.

    Because the objective reality is that most SSPX Catholics just go with the flow. And that is what, 90% of Trads, or 60% of Latin Mass attendees nationwide?

    Just read the CCCC thread and/or Sean Johnson's book -- the SSPX has changed in a major way. But how many stayed put, changing their position to "FSSP" -- and how many left to join the Resistance?

    So it's not my personal anecdotal experience, or even the experience of everyone in the San Antonio area -- just look at SSPX chapels nationwide. How many chapels were emptied out, as Trads stubbornly stuck to their principles, and left the SSPX chapels to found Resistance chapels with the same position "they signed up for" years ago? No chapels had to be closed as 90% of their congregation left, as far as I know. How many individuals left to protest the serious changes in the SSPX at each chapel? A relatively small percentage. Less than a third -- and that number varies widely by chapel. Some chapels lost less than 5%. But not all of these were principled, as they didn't all go to the Resistance (which would be "staying put" position-wise for them), as I will get to in a minute.

    The SSPX is the 800 lb. gorilla in the Trad world, or The Lions Share of trad Catholics. Based on events in the past 8 years, it's clear that the SSPX could change their position on the Pope from "Recognize and Resist" to "Recognize" or sedevacantist. They could change their position on Vatican 2 from "Vatican 2 delendum est" to "it's 90% good". They could also change their Missal version, start using Dialogue Mass exclusively, or any other similar change and 99% of their congregation would stay put, because they have their cozy Sunday morning habit going on, and their relatively convenient Mass (all Trads are used to an hour drive on Sunday morning; most count their blessings in this department). They don't rise up or protest over "little things", which is, unfortunately, pretty much anything regarding the Faith or the Mass.


    Furthermore, of those SSPX Catholics who left the SSPX, how many went for a group with the same position as the old SSPX? That's called the Resistance BTW. All those who left and joined the Indult or a Sede chapel obviously don't have any principles. They were just annoyed by the SSPX "politics" or something. Seriously! The SSPX is becoming Indult, so to protest, you leave and join the literal Indult location in your area? I've seen it though. The Resistance did NOT gain anything close to 100% of those who left the SSPX -- as it should be, if Trads were as principled as you say.
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    Offline Clemens Maria

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    Re: How many Trads are ACCIDENTALLY Sede, R and R, etc
    « Reply #3 on: January 03, 2021, 01:53:52 PM »
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  • Furthermore, of those SSPX Catholics who left the SSPX, how many went for a group with the same position as the old SSPX? That's called the Resistance BTW. All those who left and joined the Indult or a Sede chapel obviously don't have any principles. They were just annoyed by the SSPX "politics" or something. Seriously! The SSPX is becoming Indult, so to protest, you leave and join the literal Indult location in your area? I've seen it though. The Resistance did NOT gain anything close to 100% of those who left the SSPX -- as it should be, if Trads were as principled as you say.
    Again, I disagree.  Most of the people coming to the sede chapel have done research and based their decisions on that.  That is the definition of principled.  Maybe in some or even in many cases these individuals were at some point lulled into a false complacency for some period of time.  But others were always on the ball changing their position as they learned more about the crisis.  Trads are the least likely to be unprincipled.  It is rare in my experience to run across someone who doesn't care about the true doctrines of the Church.  If they are wrong it is usually either because they were ignorant of something or because they had been misled by someone else.  If you want to say that trads are not perfect, I would agree with that.  But to say that 90% of trads are unprincipled is off the mark.