Author Topic: Francis & Ex Cathedra Question (Read 425 times)

WaitForTheDawn · « **on:** July 19, 2021, 05:16:08 PM »

Theoretically, if Pope Francis were to declare a doctrine ex cathedra... if it were heretical, it would be a clear sign that he is not the true Pope, correct? But if it wasn't, would we be bound to believe it?

songbird · « **Reply #1 on:** July 19, 2021, 10:03:00 PM »

That is why he would never to Ex Cathedra, it would give him away. What is heretical, is the saying of the New Order mess! That is manifest heresy!

ByzCat3000 · « **Reply #2 on:** July 20, 2021, 08:00:35 AM »

Quote from: WaitForTheDawn on July 19, 2021, 05:16:08 PM

Theoretically, if Pope Francis were to declare a doctrine ex cathedra... if it were heretical, it would be a clear sign that he is not the true Pope, correct? But if it wasn't, would we be bound to believe it?

This is really where R&R differs from Sede. This hypothetical.
R&R would say yes, sede would say no

Pax Vobis · « **Reply #3 on:** July 20, 2021, 08:13:46 AM »

Quote

Theoretically, if Pope Francis were to declare a doctrine ex cathedra... if it were heretical, it would be a clear sign that he is not the true Pope, correct?

I don't think that God would allow such a thing to even happen. God protects His Church and the Holy Ghost would not allow any error to be declared ex cathedra. That's what the entire doctrine of infallibility means - when the pope uses his Apostolic Authority, to define doctrine, he can't err.
.

Quote

But if it wasn't, would we be bound to believe it?

Yes, if pope francis defined a doctrine which fulfilled all the marks of infallibility explained at Vatican I, then we'd have to believe it.

WaitForTheDawn · « **Reply #4 on:** July 20, 2021, 12:52:35 PM »

So then it would depend on whether one is R&R or sede what one would think?
One thing that has always for some reason irked me about the entire trad movement is how everything seems to be relative, and there seems to be few facts that everyone agrees on... but I guess that it is the way it is and will be until we have a clear, Catholic church once more.

JOANORCM · « **Reply #5 on:** July 20, 2021, 01:23:49 PM »

God would strike Bergoglio dead if he ever presumed to speak ex cathedra. He's not a true pope anyway though.

Notice that the last Pope to speak ex cathedra was His Holiness Pope Pius XII in 1950 when he confirmed the Dogma of the Assumption? I think the antipopes since Roncalli know better than to claim the charism of infallibility via ex cathedra.

Meg · « **Reply #6 on:** July 20, 2021, 03:39:24 PM »

Quote from: JOANORCM on July 20, 2021, 01:23:49 PM

God would strike Bergoglio dead if he ever presumed to speak ex cathedra. He's not a true pope anyway though.

Notice that the last Pope to speak ex cathedra was His Holiness Pope Pius XII in 1950 when he confirmed the Dogma of the Assumption? I think the antipopes since Roncalli know better than to claim the charism of infallibility via ex cathedra.

From a sede point of view, why would God care about someone who isn't the pope, who declares something ex-cathedra? Why would God strike him dead, since he's not a Pope anyway? Is there some precedent from Scripture or Tradition which address this? (A non-pope being struck dead if he declares something ex-cathedra)

ByzCat3000 · « **Reply #7 on:** July 20, 2021, 04:04:35 PM »

Quote from: WaitForTheDawn on July 20, 2021, 12:52:35 PM

So then it would depend on whether one is R&R or sede what one would think?
One thing that has always for some reason irked me about the entire trad movement is how everything seems to be relative, and there seems to be few facts that everyone agrees on... but I guess that it is the way it is and will be until we have a clear, Catholic church once more.

I think we agree on doctrine for the most part except for the question of how far the pope can go astray and a few other minor things.
That being said, not going to lie, to me the whole answer of well he isn't really Pope seems like a bit of a cop out to me. The argument that these popes have not invoked in fallibility is more convincing to me. Perhaps a non dogmatic sede might say God would not allow this out of grace to his R and R or indult children
But yeah on its face there's no reason why an antipope

Incredulous · « **Reply #8 on:** July 20, 2021, 04:35:35 PM »

I defer to the more learned on this topic.

My "pewster" take is that this Motu is an Ex Cathedra pronouncement, but it was cleverly disguised.

Bergy put a bureaucratic fence around the Tridentine Mass, but he did not abrogate it, as B16 noted in 2007, had never been done

If Francis had abrogated the true Mass he would be clearly anathema, according to Trent.

APOSTOLIC LETTER
ISSUED "MOTU PROPRIO"
BY THE SUPREME PONTIFF

FRANCIS

“TRADITIONIS CUSTODES”

On the Use of the Roman Liturgy
Prior to the Reform of 1970

Guardians of the tradition, the bishops in communion with the Bishop of Rome constitute the visible principle and foundation of the unity of their particular Churches.[1] Under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, through the proclamation of the Gospel and by means of the celebration of the Eucharist, they govern the particular Churches entrusted to them.[2]

In order to promote the concord and unity of the Church, with paternal solicitude towards those who in any region adhere to liturgical forms antecedent to the reform willed by the Vatican Council II, my Venerable Predecessors, Saint John Paul II and Benedict XVI, granted and regulated the faculty to use the Roman Missal edited by John XXIII in 1962.[3] In this way they intended “to facilitate the ecclesial communion of those Catholics who feel attached to some earlier liturgical forms” and not to others.[4]

In line with the initiative of my Venerable Predecessor Benedict XVI to invite the bishops to assess the application of the Motu Proprio Summorum Pontificuм three years after its publication, the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith carried out a detailed consultation of the bishops in 2020. The results have been carefully considered in the light of experience that has matured during these years.

At this time, having considered the wishes expressed by the episcopate and having heard the opinion of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, I now desire, with this Apostolic Letter, to press on ever more in the constant search for ecclesial communion. Therefore, I have considered it appropriate to establish the following:

Art. 1. The liturgical books promulgated by Saint Paul VI and Saint John Paul II, in conformity with the decrees of Vatican Council II, are the unique expression of the lex orandi of the Roman Rite.

Art. 2. It belongs to the diocesan bishop, as moderator, promoter, and guardian of the whole liturgical life of the particular Church entrusted to him,[5] to regulate the liturgical celebrations of his diocese.[6] Therefore, it is his exclusive competence to authorize the use of the 1962 Roman Missal in his diocese, according to the guidelines of the Apostolic See.

Art. 3. The bishop of the diocese in which until now there exist one or more groups that celebrate according to the Missal antecedent to the reform of 1970:

§ 1. is to determine that these groups do not deny the validity and the legitimacy of the liturgical reform, dictated by Vatican Council II and the Magisterium of the Supreme Pontiffs;

§ 2. is to designate one or more locations where the faithful adherents of these groups may gather for the eucharistic celebration (not however in the parochial churches and without the erection of new personal parishes);

§ 3. to establish at the designated locations the days on which eucharistic celebrations are permitted using the Roman Missal promulgated by Saint John XXIII in 1962.[7] In these celebrations the readings are proclaimed in the vernacular language, using translations of the Sacred Scripture approved for liturgical use by the respective Episcopal Conferences;

§ 4. to appoint a priest who, as delegate of the bishop, is entrusted with these celebrations and with the pastoral care of these groups of the faithful. This priest should be suited for this responsibility, skilled in the use of the Missale Romanum antecedent to the reform of 1970, possess a knowledge of the Latin language sufficient for a thorough comprehension of the rubrics and liturgical texts, and be animated by a lively pastoral charity and by a sense of ecclesial communion. This priest should have at heart not only the correct celebration of the liturgy, but also the pastoral and spiritual care of the faithful;

§ 5. to proceed suitably to verify that the parishes canonically erected for the benefit of these faithful are effective for their spiritual growth, and to determine whether or not to retain them;

§ 6. to take care not to authorize the establishment of new groups.

Art. 4. Priests ordained after the publication of the present Motu Proprio, who wish to celebrate using the Missale Romanum of 1962, should submit a formal request to the diocesan Bishop who shall consult the Apostolic See before granting this authorization.

Art. 5. Priests who already celebrate according to the Missale Romanum of 1962 should request from the diocesan Bishop the authorization to continue to enjoy this faculty.

Art. 6. Institutes of consecrated life and Societies of apostolic life, erected by the Pontifical Commission Ecclesia Dei, fall under the competence of the Congregation for Institutes of Consecrated Life and Societies for Apostolic Life.

Art. 7. The Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments and the Congregation for Institutes of Consecrated Life and Societies of Apostolic Life, for matters of their particular competence, exercise the authority of the Holy See with respect to the observance of these provisions.

Art. 8. Previous norms, instructions, permissions, and customs that do not conform to the provisions of the present Motu Proprio are abrogated.

Everything that I have declared in this Apostolic Letter in the form of Motu Proprio, I order to be observed in all its parts, anything else to the contrary notwithstanding, even if worthy of particular mention, and I establish that it be promulgated by way of publication in “L’Osservatore Romano”, entering immediately in force and, subsequently, that it be published in the official Commentary of the Holy See, Acta Apostolicae Sedis.

Given at Rome, at Saint John Lateran, on 16 July 2021, the liturgical Memorial of Our Lady of Mount Carmel, in the ninth year of Our Pontificate.

FRANCIS

[size={defaultattr}][font={defaultattr}]
[1] Cfr Second Vatican Ecuмenical Council, Dogmatic Constitution on the Church “Lumen Gentium”, 21 november 1964, n. 23 AAS 57 (1965) 27.
[2] Cfr Second Vatican Ecuмenical Council, Dogmatic Constitution on the Church “Lumen Gentium”, 21 november 1964, n. 27: AAS 57 (1965) 32; Second Vatican Ecuмenical Council, Decree concerning the pastoral office of bishops in the Church “Christus Dominus”, 28 october 1965, n. 11: AAS 58 (1966) 677-678; Catechism of the Catholic Church, n. 833.
[3] Cfr John Paul II, Apostolic Letter given Motu proprio “Ecclesia Dei”, 2 july 1988: AAS 80 (1988) 1495-1498; Benedict XVI, Apostolic Letter given Motu proprio “Summorum Pontificuм”, 7 july 2007: AAS 99 (2007) 777-781; Apostolic Letter given Motu proprio “Ecclesiae unitatem”, 2 july 2009: AAS 101 (2009) 710-711.
[4] John Paul II, Apostolic Letter given Motu proprio “Ecclesia Dei”, 2 july 1988, n. 5: AAS 80 (1988) 1498.
[5] Cfr Second Vatican Ecuмenical Council, Costitution on the sacred liturgy “Sacrosanctum Concilium”, 4 december 1963, n. 41: AAS 56 (1964) 111; Caeremoniale Episcoporum, n. 9; Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacrament, Instruction on certain matters to be observed or to be avoided regarding the Most Holy Eucharist “Redemptionis Sacramentum”, 25 march 2004, nn. 19-25: AAS 96 (2004) 555-557.
[6] Cfr CIC, can. 375, § 1; can. 392.
[7] Cfr Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, Decree “Quo magis” approving seven Eucharistic Prefaces for the forma extraordinaria of the Roman Rite, 22 february 2020, and Decree “cuм sanctissima” on the liturgical celebration in honour of Saints in the forma extraordinaria of the Roman Rite, 22 february 2020: L’Osservatore Romano, 26 march 2020, p. 6.[/font][/size]

Pax Vobis · « **Reply #9 on:** July 20, 2021, 04:41:07 PM »

Quote

My "pewster" take is that this Motu is an Ex Cathedra pronouncement, but it was cleverly disguised.

I assure you, with 100% certainty, that this docuмent is not ex cathedra, because those must deal with defining doctrine. This docuмent is purely disciplinary and has nothing to do with doctrine.

Incredulous · « **Reply #10 on:** July 20, 2021, 06:19:44 PM »

Quote from: Pax Vobis on July 20, 2021, 04:41:07 PM

I assure you, with 100% certainty, that this docuмent is not ex cathedra, because those must deal with defining doctrine. This docuмent is purely disciplinary and has nothing to do with doctrine.

Thank you!

Author Topic: Francis & Ex Cathedra Question (Read 425 times)

WaitForTheDawn

Francis & Ex Cathedra Question

songbird

Re: Francis & Ex Cathedra Question

ByzCat3000

Re: Francis & Ex Cathedra Question

Pax Vobis

Re: Francis & Ex Cathedra Question

WaitForTheDawn

Re: Francis & Ex Cathedra Question

JOANORCM

Re: Francis & Ex Cathedra Question

Meg

Re: Francis & Ex Cathedra Question

ByzCat3000

Re: Francis & Ex Cathedra Question

Incredulous

Re: Francis & Ex Cathedra Question

Pax Vobis

Re: Francis & Ex Cathedra Question

Incredulous

Re: Francis & Ex Cathedra Question