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Author Topic: Fr. Burfitt Corrects Fr. Johnson on Validity of Novus Ordo Priests  (Read 3930 times)

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Offline Texana

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Listen and weep: 

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Offline Texana

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Re: Fr. Burfitt Corrects Fr. Johnson on Validity of Novus Ordo Priests
« Reply #1 on: July 12, 2023, 04:47:23 PM »
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  • And where is Fr. Johnson now?


    Offline God and Land

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    Re: Fr. Burfitt Corrects Fr. Johnson on Validity of Novus Ordo Priests
    « Reply #2 on: July 12, 2023, 05:06:25 PM »
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  • Is this the same Fr Johnson that was in Post Falls?  If so, he was a corker.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Fr. Burfitt Corrects Fr. Johnson on Validity of Novus Ordo Priests
    « Reply #3 on: July 12, 2023, 05:26:39 PM »
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  • Personally, I think the NREC is "probably" (not certainly) valid, and consequently, the priests ordained by them are "probably" (not cetainly) validly ordained.

    The ambiguity of form is the cause of the slight doubt.

    I still do not understand how Fr. Calderon could acknowledge the doubts, yet conclude that since the NREC is "probably valid," therefore we can therefore go along with it, while the moralists teach us that with regard to sacramental validity, we must take a tutiorist position.

    If someone could explain that seeming contradiction to me, it would be much appreciated.

    As regards Fr. Burfitt's 13 minute response to Fr. Johnson's comments, I note he didn't make a single doctrinal argument.  He stated the SSPX continues to follow +Lefebvre's position, and left it at that. 

    That's fine and well for those who are already comfortable with +Lefebvre's position, but does nothing to address the arguments of those like Fr. Johnson (or other arguments regarding the two new rites).

    I tuned in hoping that he would make a persuasive doctrinal argument, but the video ended without that happening.

    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline poenitens

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    Re: Fr. Burfitt Corrects Fr. Johnson on Validity of Novus Ordo Priests
    « Reply #4 on: July 12, 2023, 06:16:59 PM »
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  • Personally, I think the NREC is "probably" (not certainly) valid, and consequently, the priests ordained by them are "probably" (not cetainly) validly ordained.

    The ambiguity of form is the cause of the slight doubt.
    Why do you think that the NREC is probably valid? Why do you think that the doubt is slight?
    ¡Viva Jesús!

    Please, disregard any opinions and references that I have posted that may seem favorable to any traditionalist group, especially those that pertinaciously deny EENS (CMRI, Sanborn, Dolan and associates, for example).


    Offline Giovanni Berto

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    Re: Fr. Burfitt Corrects Fr. Johnson on Validity of Novus Ordo Priests
    « Reply #5 on: July 12, 2023, 06:26:22 PM »
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  • I still do not understand how Fr. Calderon could acknowledge the doubts, yet conclude that since the NREC is "probably valid," therefore we can therefore go along with it, while the moralists teach us that with regard to sacramental validity, we must take a tutiorist position.

    If someone could explain that seeming contradiction to me, it would be much appreciated.

    The most obvious explanation is that he has to please his superiors.

    They probably don't care for his reasoning, since the SSPX teaches blind obedience. As long as the bottom line is "accept the Novus Ordo sacraments", the rest doesn't really matter.

    Offline Angelus

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    Re: Fr. Burfitt Corrects Fr. Johnson on Validity of Novus Ordo Priests
    « Reply #6 on: July 12, 2023, 07:44:15 PM »
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  • Personally, I think the NREC is "probably" (not certainly) valid, and consequently, the priests ordained by them are "probably" (not cetainly) validly ordained.

    The ambiguity of form is the cause of the slight doubt.

    I still do not understand how Fr. Calderon could acknowledge the doubts, yet conclude that since the NREC is "probably valid," therefore we can therefore go along with it, while the moralists teach us that with regard to sacramental validity, we must take a tutiorist position.

    If someone could explain that seeming contradiction to me, it would be much appreciated.

    Sean, the simple answer is that the SSPX priests were not taught the part bolded and underlined above. The SSPX seminaries must have provided a faulty education on that point.

    As you say, it is demonstrably true that Catholic Moral Theology requires a Catholic to avoid any Sacrament that is not certainly valid (meaning by the standard of "moral certainty"). If there is any reasonable doubt about validity, even a shadow of doubt, if based on some kind of evidence or logic, then that Sacrament must be shunned (except possibly in a case of emergency). 

    The SSPX teaches the opposite: that one should only avoid a Sacrament only when one is certain that it is invalid. This is not Catholic teaching. The main problem now is the obstinacy of the SSPX priests in their error.

    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: Fr. Burfitt Corrects Fr. Johnson on Validity of Novus Ordo Priests
    « Reply #7 on: July 13, 2023, 12:24:25 AM »
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  • Sean, the simple answer is that the SSPX priests were not taught the part bolded and underlined above. The SSPX seminaries must have provided a faulty education on that point.

    As you say, it is demonstrably true that Catholic Moral Theology requires a Catholic to avoid any Sacrament that is not certainly valid (meaning by the standard of "moral certainty"). If there is any reasonable doubt about validity, even a shadow of doubt, if based on some kind of evidence or logic, then that Sacrament must be shunned (except possibly in a case of emergency).

    The SSPX teaches the opposite: that one should only avoid a Sacrament only when one is certain that it is invalid. This is not Catholic teaching. The main problem now is the obstinacy of the SSPX priests in their error.
    Rather, Angelus, the neo-SSPX regards both the new rite of ordination and the new rite of episcopal consecration to be in themselves valid. They are simply ignoring the study of Fr Calderon and basing themselves on the earlier study of the Avrille Dominicans. However, the Dominicans, it would seem, do not "put their money where their mouth is" and, in practice, recommend reordination and reconsecration sub conditione. Moreover, in practice, the neo-SSPX seem to be shifting always closer towards total acceptance of all New Church Orders.


    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: Fr. Burfitt Corrects Fr. Johnson on Validity of Novus Ordo Priests
    « Reply #8 on: July 13, 2023, 01:06:51 AM »
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  • I still do not understand how Fr. Calderon could acknowledge the doubts, yet conclude that since the NREC is "probably valid," therefore we can therefore go along with it, while the moralists teach us that with regard to sacramental validity, we must take a tutiorist position.

    If someone could explain that seeming contradiction to me, it would be much appreciated.
    Hi Sean. I'm getting close to posting the full study of Fr Calderon in the English. It has been a painstaking translation and I am now into the footnotes (which are extensive). I want it to be perfect, not only linguistically but also theologically, so will have it endorsed by experts before posting.

    Fr Calderon certainly doesn't say of the NREC that "we can therefore go along with it". 

    Note that the conclusion in the practical realm is twofold:

    First, for those receiving the sacraments:
    (i) Attending Mass (traditional rite) and receiving communion - permitted "occasionally". By "occasionally" I suspect he means 'for a sufficiently good reason', 'a proportional justification', rather than just 'now and then'.
    (ii) Absolution - permitted in case of necessity.
    "in all these activities our responsibility is not engaged concerning the priesthood exercised. And the remote risk that a communion or an absolution may be invalid is not so serious".

    Second, for the authorities responsible for the exercise of the priesthood/episcopacy:
    The positive and objective doubt make necessary the conditional reordination/reconsecration. Such doubt cannot be tolerated at the very root of the sacraments.

    It is very clear what he considers the obligation of the SSPX authorities with regard to Bishop Huonder!

    Here is his conclusion again, emphasis added:

    Now, in a matter of the utmost importance for the life of the Church, such as the validity of the episcopate, it is necessary to have absolute certainty. Therefore, in order to be able to accept this rite with peace of conscience, it would be necessary to count not only on the judgement of theologians, but also on the infallible judgement of the Magisterium.

    As for the practical attitude to be taken with regard to the new episcopal consecrations, the one that the Fraternity has maintained up to now seems to us to be justified:

    1. The very probable validity of the rite seems to us to make it morally acceptable to occasionally attend Mass (traditional rite) celebrated by a priest or a bishop ordained or consecrated in the new rite, and even to receive communion therein; it seems to us acceptable, in case of necessity, to receive absolution from them; to treat them as priests and bishops and not as laymen in costume; it seems to us acceptable to allow them to celebrate in our own homes. For the shadows that hover over the validity of their priesthood are but shadows and in all these activities our responsibility is not engaged concerning the priesthood exercised. And the remote risk that a communion or an absolution may be invalid is not so serious.

    2. But the positive and objective defects from which this rite suffers, which prevent us from being certain of its validity, it seems to us -until there is a Roman judgement, for which many things would have to change– justify and make necessary the conditional reordination of priests ordained by new bishops and, if necessary, the conditional reconsecration of these bishops. Such doubts cannot be tolerated at the very root of the sacraments (33).

    Footnote 33 says "The moralists speak much about the necessity for certainty in the validity of the sacraments".


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Fr. Burfitt Corrects Fr. Johnson on Validity of Novus Ordo Priests
    « Reply #9 on: July 13, 2023, 05:50:17 AM »
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  • Hi Sean. I'm getting close to posting the full study of Fr Calderon in the English. It has been a painstaking translation and I am now into the footnotes (which are extensive). I want it to be perfect, not only linguistically but also theologically, so will have it endorsed by experts before posting.

    Fr Calderon certainly doesn't say of the NREC that "we can therefore go along with it".

    Note that the conclusion in the practical realm is twofold:

    First, for those receiving the sacraments:
    (i) Attending Mass (traditional rite) and receiving communion - permitted "occasionally". By "occasionally" I suspect he means 'for a sufficiently good reason', 'a proportional justification', rather than just 'now and then'.
    (ii) Absolution - permitted in case of necessity.
    "in all these activities our responsibility is not engaged concerning the priesthood exercised. And the remote risk that a communion or an absolution may be invalid is not so serious".

    Second, for the authorities responsible for the exercise of the priesthood/episcopacy:
    The positive and objective doubt make necessary the conditional reordination/reconsecration. Such doubt cannot be tolerated at the very root of the sacraments.

    It is very clear what he considers the obligation of the SSPX authorities with regard to Bishop Huonder!

    Here is his conclusion again, emphasis added:

    Now, in a matter of the utmost importance for the life of the Church, such as the validity of the episcopate, it is necessary to have absolute certainty. Therefore, in order to be able to accept this rite with peace of conscience, it would be necessary to count not only on the judgement of theologians, but also on the infallible judgement of the Magisterium.

    As for the practical attitude to be taken with regard to the new episcopal consecrations, the one that the Fraternity has maintained up to now seems to us to be justified:

    1. The very probable validity of the rite seems to us to make it morally acceptable to occasionally attend Mass (traditional rite) celebrated by a priest or a bishop ordained or consecrated in the new rite, and even to receive communion therein; it seems to us acceptable, in case of necessity, to receive absolution from them; to treat them as priests and bishops and not as laymen in costume; it seems to us acceptable to allow them to celebrate in our own homes. For the shadows that hover over the validity of their priesthood are but shadows and in all these activities our responsibility is not engaged concerning the priesthood exercised. And the remote risk that a communion or an absolution may be invalid is not so serious.

    2. But the positive and objective defects from which this rite suffers, which prevent us from being certain of its validity, it seems to us -until there is a Roman judgement, for which many things would have to change– justify and make necessary the conditional reordination of priests ordained by new bishops and, if necessary, the conditional reconsecration of these bishops. Such doubts cannot be tolerated at the very root of the sacraments (33).

    Footnote 33 says "The moralists speak much about the necessity for certainty in the validity of the sacraments".

    That would be a great service!
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Fr. Burfitt Corrects Fr. Johnson on Validity of Novus Ordo Priests
    « Reply #10 on: July 13, 2023, 07:23:08 AM »
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  • There's something incredibly choppy about the way he thinks and speaks, throwing out partial thought fragments that he never completes or links together into coherency, causing me a great deal of mental pain.  Most of his sermon was as clear as mud.


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Fr. Burfitt Corrects Fr. Johnson on Validity of Novus Ordo Priests
    « Reply #11 on: July 13, 2023, 09:12:28 AM »
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  • This is similar mental gymnastics that the indult communities go through every time the 'new mass' or V2 topics come up.  They accept such (in theory) but oppose such (in practice...if they can).  They are a living contradiction.  What a horrible way to live the Faith?  The new-sspx is most certainly indult now.  Except for valid orders, they act exactly like the FSSP/ICK.  What a shame.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Fr. Burfitt Corrects Fr. Johnson on Validity of Novus Ordo Priests
    « Reply #12 on: July 13, 2023, 09:40:40 AM »
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  • The new-sspx is most certainly indult now.  Except for valid orders, they act exactly like the FSSP/ICK.  What a shame.

    Agreed.  In fact, you'll find FSSP priests speaking out more against various issues than most SSPX priests do.

    Offline Meg

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    Re: Fr. Burfitt Corrects Fr. Johnson on Validity of Novus Ordo Priests
    « Reply #13 on: July 13, 2023, 10:06:26 AM »
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  • This subject is not really black-and-white, so I can see why Fr. Burfitt is not able to articulate the subject clearly. How is the SSPX supposed to answer the question of the validity of Novus Ordo ordinations? Not being sedevacantists, they aren't going to see the situation in the same light as sedevacantists, right?

    It would be so much easier if the SSPX would just say that all Novus ordo ordinations are invalid, but I can't see them ever doing that.

    I can understand why the SSPX (or Fr. Burfitt, rather) would see the need to correct the goofball Fr. Johnson, even if they (he) can't clearly express the problem or arrive at a clear solution, since there's a serious Crisis in the Church at this time, and not everything is black-and-white. 
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline DustyActual

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    Re: Fr. Burfitt Corrects Fr. Johnson on Validity of Novus Ordo Priests
    « Reply #14 on: July 13, 2023, 12:46:13 PM »
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  • This subject is not really black-and-white, so I can see why Fr. Burfitt is not able to articulate the subject clearly. How is the SSPX supposed to answer the question of the validity of Novus Ordo ordinations? Not being sedevacantists, they aren't going to see the situation in the same light as sedevacantists, right?

    It would be so much easier if the SSPX would just say that all Novus ordo ordinations are invalid, but I can't see them ever doing that.

    I can understand why the SSPX (or Fr. Burfitt, rather) would see the need to correct the goofball Fr. Johnson, even if they (he) can't clearly express the problem or arrive at a clear solution, since there's a serious Crisis in the Church at this time, and not everything is black-and-white.
    Is Fr. Johnson really a goofball or was he simply expressing his worries over the new rite of ordination. I would disagree with father's view that the new rite of ordination and episcopal consecration are flat out invalid, we don't know yet until the Church decides on this issue. In the meantime it is prudent to conditionally reordain Novus ordo priests just in case, and not because of doubtful intentions, but because of the form for the new rite of episcopal consecration.
    Go to Jesus through Our Lady.