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Author Topic: Father Cekada Dying  (Read 10762 times)

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Offline Yeti

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Re: Father Cekada Dying
« Reply #105 on: September 14, 2020, 01:20:08 PM »
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  • Honestly if I were a Sede I'd probably think they were a plant to made my position look bad.
    Yes, my friend. Yes, yes, and again yes.
    .

    Quote
    But as it is, I tend to think they're just quasi laypeople who jumped on muh plain meaning of Florence and decided to anathematize everyone over it.

    .
    Please join sedevacantism! We need more people like you. :cowboy:

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Father Cekada Dying
    « Reply #106 on: September 14, 2020, 01:26:45 PM »
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  • Saint Alphonsus: “ Now it is de fide that men are also saved by Baptism of desire, by virtue of the Canon Apostolicam, “de presbytero non baptizato” and of the Council of Trent, session 6, Chapter 4 where it is said that no one can be saved “without the laver of regeneration or the desire for it.” ”
    Trent does not say the above, you have misquoted Trent.

    Session 6, Chapter 4 speaks of justification, not salvation. Nowhere does Trent ever say that a desire of any kind saves.

                                                                               CHAPTER IV.
    A description is introduced of the Justification of the impious, and of the Manner thereof under the law of grace.

    "By which words, a description of the Justification of the impious is indicated, as being a translation, from that state wherein man is born a child of the first Adam, to the state of grace, and of the adoption of the sons of God, through the second Adam, Jesus Christ, our Saviour. And this translation, since the promulgation of the Gospel, cannot be effected, without the laver of regeneration, or the desire thereof, as it is written; unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God".
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Father Cekada Dying
    « Reply #107 on: September 14, 2020, 01:34:32 PM »
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  • Trent does not say the above, you have misquoted Trent.

    Session 6, Chapter 4 speaks of justification, not salvation. Nowhere does Trent ever say that a desire of any kind saves.

                                                                               CHAPTER IV.
    A description is introduced of the Justification of the impious, and of the Manner thereof under the law of grace.

    "By which words, a description of the Justification of the impious is indicated, as being a translation, from that state wherein man is born a child of the first Adam, to the state of grace, and of the adoption of the sons of God, through the second Adam, Jesus Christ, our Saviour. And this translation, since the promulgation of the Gospel, cannot be effected, without the laver of regeneration, or the desire thereof, as it is written; unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God".

    Only for the warped Feeneyite mind is the destiny of one who dies justified possibly different than the destiny of one who has achieved salvation.

    The Feeneyite heretics reason that one who dies justified, but not water baptized, is either in hell (damned despite being in the state of grace), or in a fictitious place called the “limbo of the unbaptized justified.”

    It doesn’t get any dumber than that!
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Yeti

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    Re: Father Cekada Dying
    « Reply #108 on: September 14, 2020, 01:40:42 PM »
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  • Trent does not say the above, you have misquoted Trent.
    Those were the words of St. Alphonsus that QvD was quoting, not Trent directly. If that's a misquotation, it's St. Alphonsus's misquotation.

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Father Cekada Dying
    « Reply #109 on: September 14, 2020, 01:42:00 PM »
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  • Only for the warped Feeneyite mind is the destiny of one who dies justified possibly different than the destiny of one who has achieved salvation.

    The Feeneyite heretics reason that one who dies justified, but not water baptized, is either in hell (damned despite being in the state of grace), or in a fictitious place called the “limbo of the unbaptized justified.”

    It doesn’t get any dumber than that!
    Sean, in order to understand what Trent is saying there, you need to read what Trent actually says there. 

    "And this translation, since the promulgation of the Gospel, [Justification] cannot be effected, without the laver of regeneration, or the desire thereof, as it is written; unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God".

    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Yeti

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    Re: Father Cekada Dying
    « Reply #110 on: September 14, 2020, 01:44:53 PM »
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  • Sean, in order to understand what Trent is saying there, you need to read what Trent actually says there. 
    Can we read how it is explained by a canonized Doctor of the Church too?

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Father Cekada Dying
    « Reply #111 on: September 14, 2020, 02:05:02 PM »
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  • Can we read how it is explained by a canonized Doctor of the Church too?
    Is it not plain to see that the great St. Alphonsus' explanation, my favorite patron saint btw, does not agree with Trent's teaching? You can site him all day long and we can site Trent all day long and the two will disagree all day long. Only one teaching is the correct teaching.

    FWIW, St. Alphonsus was a moral theologian, not a dogmatic theologian - who also was quoted as saying that no one gets to heaven who does not know Our Blessed Mother, which I agree with. Do you agree with him on this?
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline forlorn

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    Re: Father Cekada Dying
    « Reply #112 on: September 14, 2020, 04:03:15 PM »
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  • This is from Sean's quote from St. Alphonsus, describing BOD:



    A relevant question: Isn't that how the Saints of the OT were justified before death?

    Stated differently: weren't the OT saints justified by something meeting the definition of an "implicit" baptism of desire?
    Old Covenant vs New Covenant. Entirely different ballgame. 


    Offline forlorn

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    Re: Father Cekada Dying
    « Reply #113 on: September 14, 2020, 04:18:28 PM »
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  • Sean, in order to understand what Trent is saying there, you need to read what Trent actually says there.  

    "And this translation, since the promulgation of the Gospel, [Justification] cannot be effected, without the laver of regeneration, or the desire thereof, as it is written; unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God".
    "[Justification] cannot be effected, without the layer of regeneration, or the desire thereof" = "Justification can only be effected by the layer of regeneration, or the desire [for the layer of regeneration: baptism]."

    From the same chapter of Trent: "Justification of the impious is indicated, as being a translation, from that state wherein man is born a child of the first Adam, to the state of grace."

    The "state wherein man is born a child of the first Adam" clearly refers to Original Sin. Therefore, the text clearly says that justification removes the stain of Original Sin and puts someone in a state of grace. No one who perishes in a state of grace can be damned, that is de fide. So one who is justified is saved, by definition(note that the state of justification can be temporarily lost by way of mortal sin).

    If one who is justified is saved, and justification can be effected by the desire for baptism, as is taught by Trent, then one may be saved by desire for baptism. 

    I don't know how St. Alphonsus justifies implicit baptism of desire, but explicit BOD is strongly defended by Trent.

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Father Cekada Dying
    « Reply #114 on: September 14, 2020, 05:47:33 PM »
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  • Old Covenant vs New Covenant. Entirely different ballgame.
    Agreed.

    But how about answering the question?
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline forlorn

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    Re: Father Cekada Dying
    « Reply #115 on: September 14, 2020, 06:25:27 PM »
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  • Agreed.

    But how about answering the question?
    I already did. They died(and weren't even saved as such, they went to Hell first of all) under the Old Covenant. Entirely different ruleset to what we have now. There was no baptism back then, so how could BOD have saved them? And again, they weren't even saved - they were sent to Hell before Christ freed them. Unless you're implying that implicit BOD can bring souls that are already in Hell to Heaven, the scenarios aren't even remotely comparable. Obviously the OT Fathers weren't condemned to eternal damnation for being "outside "of a Church that didn't yet exist or not professing faith in dogma that had not yet been revealed. None of that has anything to do with BOD which, as the first word of the acronym suggests, is a New Covenant concept.


    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Father Cekada Dying
    « Reply #116 on: September 14, 2020, 07:25:24 PM »
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  • Another example of  a writer that can't accept the dogmas on EENS as they are written, and therefore must seek someone to interpret them according to his desires. That is the difference, the strict EENSers believe the dogmas as they are written, the others refuse to accept them as they are written and seek teachers according to their own desires, quoting say St. Thomas Aquinas when he agrees, and throwing him under the bus when he does not. They are like Protestants, each one has his own individual belief, you never know who they believe can be saved where the rubber meets the road. A waste of time to debate with them on the matter because they themselves do not know what they believe, the only thing they have in common is that they do not believe in the dogmas on EENS as they are written.
    Well, there we go again, right after my posting above the so-called BODers start to come out again, each one with his own belief of who can be saved. They talk about BOD as if they are talking about the same thing, but they all have their own belief of who can be saved, whether they desire to be Catholic and baptized or they have no desire whatsoever to be Catholic or baptized and everything in between. Each one with his own flavor, as many varieties of what they call BOD as there are non-Catholics.

    Offline Incredulous

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    Re: Father Cekada Dying
    « Reply #117 on: September 14, 2020, 07:36:50 PM »
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  • It is so funny how this topic degenerated into an EENS/BOD argument.  :laugh1:

    I’ll bet the Dimonds stole EENS from Father Wathen cause it added credibility to their sede schtick.
    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi

    Offline Nadir

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    Re: Father Cekada Dying
    « Reply #118 on: September 14, 2020, 09:46:42 PM »
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  • Well, there we go again, right after my posting above the so-called BODers start to come out again, each one with his own belief of who can be saved. They talk about BOD as if they are talking about the same thing, but they all have their own belief of who can be saved, whether they desire to be Catholic and baptized or they have no desire whatsoever to be Catholic or baptized and everything in between. Each one with his own flavor, as many varieties of what they call BOD as there are non-Catholics.
    Tradhican quoting Tradhican yet again!
    Sorry, I couldn't resist :facepalm:
    Help of Christians, guard our land from assault or inward stain,
    Let it be what God has planned, His new Eden where You reign.

    +RIP 2024

    Offline Yeti

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    Re: Father Cekada Dying
    « Reply #119 on: September 14, 2020, 10:28:11 PM »
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  • It is so funny how this topic degenerated into an EENS/BOD argument.  :laugh1:

    I’ll bet the Dimonds stole EENS from Father Wathen cause it added credibility to their sede schtick.
    Sorry, fellas, that's my fault. Someone cited the Dimonds as some sort of example of sedevacantists. I just wanted to set the record straight with those guys, but that wasn't really a relevant contribution in a thread devoted to paying last respects to Fr. Cekada.