Catholic Info

Traditional Catholic Faith => Crisis in the Church => Topic started by: Matto on September 09, 2020, 05:59:47 PM

Title: Father Cekada Dying
Post by: Matto on September 09, 2020, 05:59:47 PM
https://twitter.com/dolan_bp/status/1303803184847245312 (https://twitter.com/dolan_bp/status/1303803184847245312)

Bp. Dolan says Father Cekada is dying on Twitter.
Title: Re: Father Cekada Dying
Post by: SeanJohnson on September 09, 2020, 06:24:12 PM
Very sorry to hear this.  I was just wondering how he was doing an hour before I saw your post.  

:pray:
Title: Re: Father Cekada Dying
Post by: Clemens Maria on September 09, 2020, 06:42:37 PM
 :pray:
Title: Re: Father Cekada Dying
Post by: Minnesota on September 09, 2020, 10:54:20 PM
praying for a holy death and that His will be done
Title: Re: Father Cekada Dying
Post by: StLouisIX on September 09, 2020, 11:00:53 PM
 :pray:
Title: Re: Father Cekada Dying
Post by: donkath on September 09, 2020, 11:35:49 PM
 :pray:
Title: Re: Father Cekada Dying
Post by: MMagdala on September 10, 2020, 02:20:50 AM
 :pray:
Title: Re: Father Cekada Dying
Post by: poche on September 10, 2020, 02:30:18 AM
 :pray: :pray: :pray:
Title: Re: Father Cekada Dying
Post by: Stubborn on September 10, 2020, 04:38:16 AM
 :pray:
Title: Re: Father Cekada Dying
Post by: Nadir on September 10, 2020, 05:20:04 AM
 :pray:
Title: Re: Father Cekada Dying
Post by: Ladislaus on September 10, 2020, 05:45:03 AM
How very sad.

:pray: :pray: :pray:
Title: Re: Father Cekada Dying
Post by: Ladislaus on September 10, 2020, 05:48:13 AM
Hospices are dens of murder for the most part, so one has to be very careful with them.  Lots of euthanasia flies under the radar there since they have subtle ways of doing it.

Any indication of what Father seems to be dying OF?
Title: Re: Father Cekada Dying
Post by: TKGS on September 10, 2020, 05:51:37 AM
Any indication of what Father seems to be dying OF?
It has not been specifically disclosed, but he has only recently been treated for cancer and he has had multiple strokes.  
Title: Re: Father Cekada Dying
Post by: Ladislaus on September 10, 2020, 07:08:17 AM
It has not been specifically disclosed, but he has only recently been treated for cancer and he has had multiple strokes.  

Thank you.  Yes, I had hear about his past incidents, so I was wondering what is going on now, whether it's the cancer or something else.
Title: Re: Father Cekada Dying
Post by: Mithrandylan on September 10, 2020, 09:17:44 AM
Hospices are dens of murder for the most part, so one has to be very careful with them.  Lots of euthanasia flies under the radar there since they have subtle ways of doing it.

Any indication of what Father seems to be dying OF?
.
Bishop Dolan's tweet indicated that he had a hospice at SGG in mind.
Title: Re: Father Cekada Dying
Post by: MMagdala on September 10, 2020, 11:28:53 AM
I wish to say that although he and I disagreed over the SV position (and respectfully corresponded about that in 2014 and 2015), he was always kind to me.  We also discussed sacred music and his arrangements; he sent me his Wiki link.

Priests who have been at the bedside of other priests report that the demons become aggressive near the end, as this is their last opportunity to try to defeat a consecrated person.  So I am praying especially for his protection from attack.
Title: Re: Father Cekada Dying
Post by: Geremia on September 10, 2020, 07:13:53 PM
When he makes it to heaven, maybe he'll send us a real pope. ;)
God bless him for his humor. I learned a lot from him.
Title: Re: Father Cekada Dying
Post by: fatimarevelation23 on September 10, 2020, 07:59:13 PM
I wish to say that although he and I disagreed over the SV position (and respectfully corresponded about that in 2014 and 2015), he was always kind to me.  We also discussed sacred music and his arrangements; he sent me his Wiki link.

Priests who have been at the bedside of other priests report that the demons become aggressive near the end, as this is their last opportunity to try to defeat a consecrated person.  So I am praying especially for his protection from attack.

I feel the same way as MMagdala. I never met the man but he is a very good traditional catholic priest and I am saddened that he is dying. I myself am not a sedevacantist, I rather follow Archbishop Lefebvre's Recognize and Resist position. But, Fr. Cekada was a very holy man and we need more people like him in this world. Fr. Cekada loved and was committed to Jesus Christ and the Old Faith. We need more priests like him who are true traditionalists and I pray that God relieves him from all pain when he dies. He won't be dead though in heaven, he will be alive forever in God's kingdom.

Here is what Bishop Dolan said today on twitter at 3:59 PM:

Deo Gratias. Fr Cekada is home, and resting quietly in his own room. I am praying at his bedside, and he seems to be following, although he does not speak. “Now and at the hour of our death. Amen.” - Bishop Daniel Dolan

Here is a scripture for comfort:

And therfore, I say vnto you gentiles, which heare, and vnderstand, ooke for your pastor, he wil geue you the rest of eternitie:  because he is at hand, that shal come in the end of the world. Be ye readie for the rewardes of the kingdom, because perpetual ight shal shine to you for time euerlasting. - 4th Esdras 2:34-35 DRB 1610 Version Appendix

Amen.

:pray: :pray: :pray: :pray: :pray: :pray:
Title: Re: Father Cekada Dying
Post by: Matthew on September 10, 2020, 09:04:00 PM
I still have a bunch of copies of "Contra Cekadam" by Fr. Chazal for sale -- either they're going to be worth more now, or they'll be worthless ;)

https://www.chantcd.com/index.php/Contra-Cekadam
Title: Re: Father Cekada Dying
Post by: ByzCat3000 on September 10, 2020, 09:39:48 PM
I still have a bunch of copies of "Contra Cekadam" by Fr. Chazal for sale -- either they're going to be worth more now, or they'll be worthless ;)

https://www.chantcd.com/index.php/Contra-Cekadam
I don't feel the viscereal emotional reaction I think I'm supposed to, but I'm kind of looking at this and I'm guessing it comes off as insensitive. 

And to be clear, I'm not Sede, never have been, and I'm praying for Fr. Cekada 
Title: Re: Father Cekada Dying
Post by: FiveCross on September 10, 2020, 09:43:46 PM
 :pray: :pray: :pray:
Title: Re: Father Cekada Dying
Post by: ByzCat3000 on September 10, 2020, 10:12:08 PM
I don't feel the viscereal emotional reaction I think I'm supposed to, but I'm kind of looking at this and I'm guessing it comes off as insensitive.

And to be clear, I'm not Sede, never have been, and I'm praying for Fr. Cekada
All that said, I actually do wanna get this and read it at some point.
Title: Re: Father Cekada Dying
Post by: Mithrandylan on September 10, 2020, 10:21:18 PM
I don't feel the viscereal emotional reaction I think I'm supposed to, but I'm kind of looking at this and I'm guessing it comes off as insensitive.
.
It does. I don't think anyone was quipping about hocking their old CFN issues when John Vennari was in his last agony.
Title: Re: Father Cekada Dying
Post by: MaterDominici on September 10, 2020, 11:02:55 PM
 :pray:  :pray:  :pray: 
Title: Re: Father Cekada Dying
Post by: Minnesota on September 10, 2020, 11:57:15 PM
I still have a bunch of copies of "Contra Cekadam" by Fr. Chazal for sale -- either they're going to be worth more now, or they'll be worthless ;)

https://www.chantcd.com/index.php/Contra-Cekadam
a post about a dying priest is not the place to promote a book refuting him

shame on you
Title: Re: Father Cekada Dying
Post by: Quo vadis Domine on September 11, 2020, 04:25:49 AM
I still have a bunch of copies of "Contra Cekadam" by Fr. Chazal for sale -- either they're going to be worth more now, or they'll be worthless ;)

https://www.chantcd.com/index.php/Contra-Cekadam
I seldom give down votes, but you got one here. 
Title: Re: Father Cekada Dying
Post by: Quo vadis Domine on September 11, 2020, 04:28:22 AM
I don't feel the viscereal emotional reaction I think I'm supposed to, but I'm kind of looking at this and I'm guessing it comes off as insensitive.

And to be clear, I'm not Sede, never have been, and I'm praying for Fr. Cekada
I think the word you’re looking for is “classless”.
Title: Re: Father Cekada Dying
Post by: ByzCat3000 on September 11, 2020, 05:18:16 AM
I think the word you’re looking for is “classless”.
Yup, that's right.  There's a time and place to have the sede discussion, later.

I'd say the same thing if an R and R or Indult or NO priest was dying and prayers were being asked for them.
Title: Re: Father Cekada Dying
Post by: Meg on September 11, 2020, 08:04:28 AM
I still have a bunch of copies of "Contra Cekadam" by Fr. Chazal for sale -- either they're going to be worth more now, or they'll be worthless ;)

https://www.chantcd.com/index.php/Contra-Cekadam

Excellent book. I highly recommend it.
Title: Re: Father Cekada Dying
Post by: ByzCat3000 on September 11, 2020, 09:29:48 AM
Excellent book. I highly recommend it.
Look, I'm on the non sede side of the argument.  This isn't the time.
Title: Re: Father Cekada Dying
Post by: ByzCat3000 on September 11, 2020, 09:30:35 AM
Like I'm not saying the debate needs to stop everywhere or anything, but to specifically promote a book that is particularly targeting Fr. Cekada on a thread talking about how he's dying seems... yeah classless is the right word.
Title: Re: Father Cekada Dying
Post by: Mithrandylan on September 11, 2020, 09:33:28 AM
https://www.cathinfo.com/general-discussion/john-venarri-urgent/
.
When John Vennari was dying, there were a few autistic comments.  It was edifying to see the triviliazing and critical posts get down-thumbed into oblivion.  Matthew's post certainly was not as bad as some of the comments John got.  But I agree that it was classless.  I am sure that when Matthew is dying, he will hope that everyone who knows about it is more concerned with his soul than the financial prospects of registering the cathinfo.com domain.  Even if such comments are made in jest.
.
I am someone who has been very critical of some of Fr. Cekada's ideas in the past.  At the moment, I feel very close to ashamed for that because I realized last night when praying the litany of the dying for him, that I do not think I had ever prayed for him before.  Now's the time. 

Title: Re: Father Cekada Dying
Post by: SimpleMan on September 11, 2020, 10:37:51 AM
https://www.cathinfo.com/general-discussion/john-venarri-urgent/
.
When John Vennari was dying, there were a few autistic comments. 
What are "autistic comments"?

I am not SV, but neither can I say with certitude that SV is wrong.  I have my doubts, and the SV arguments make sense to me (a lot of them, anyway), but after much reflection, I simply cannot go sedevacantist.  I will just say, that in the end, I won't be surprised to learn that the SVs were right.  Neither will I be surprised to learn that they were wrong.  Or it could be a "not completely full, but not completely vacant" scenario.  It's all way above my pay grade.

With all due respect to our good moderator, this isn't the time.  And quite aside from issues of propriety, why would the CDs become worthless once Fr Cekada has passed away?
Title: Re: Father Cekada Dying
Post by: Mithrandylan on September 11, 2020, 10:59:55 AM
What are "autistic comments"?
.
Comments made with an apparent and all but complete obliviousness to what basic social decorum calls for.  Comments that are so beyond what anyone would normally expect in the situation that the only charitable explanation seems to be a true inability to comprehend the basic conventions of civility and decency (i.e., autism). 
.

Title: Re: Father Cekada Dying
Post by: Jaynek on September 11, 2020, 11:00:43 AM
I have fond memories of Fr. Cekada's sense of humour.  I think he would have taken Matthew's comment as dark humour, rather than as classless, and been amused by it.  

Father's book, Work of Human Hands was a great contribution to scholarship that SVs and non-SVs can both appreciate.  Even some NO supporters praised it.  Fr. Cekada also did a video series based on the book which made the information accessible to a wider audience.  https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCZygRnwBVymnpSzePpCJdZA (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCZygRnwBVymnpSzePpCJdZA)

It is certainly a time to focus on praying for him rather than arguing.  :pray:
Title: Re: Father Cekada Dead
Post by: Matto on September 11, 2020, 11:01:15 AM
http://www.suscipedomine.com/forum/index.php?topic=24470.msg511314#new (http://www.suscipedomine.com/forum/index.php?topic=24470.msg511314#new)

https://novusordowatch.org/2020/09/father-anthony-cekada-rip/ (https://novusordowatch.org/2020/09/father-anthony-cekada-rip/)

He is dead now.  
Title: Re: Father Cekada Dead
Post by: Last Tradhican on September 11, 2020, 11:06:20 AM
http://www.suscipedomine.com/forum/index.php?topic=24470.msg511314#new (http://www.suscipedomine.com/forum/index.php?topic=24470.msg511314#new)

https://novusordowatch.org/2020/09/father-anthony-cekada-rip/ (https://novusordowatch.org/2020/09/father-anthony-cekada-rip/)

He is dead now.  
We have been praying for his health for over a month, since I saw a posting about his condition here. We will now pray for his soul. 
Title: Re: Father Cekada Dying
Post by: Meg on September 11, 2020, 11:23:07 AM
Look, I'm on the non sede side of the argument.  This isn't the time.

Perhaps you are right. Wouldn't want to put a damper on the canonization of St. Cekada, patron saint of the sedes and their supporters.

Praying for his soul is a good a very good thing to do. That doesn't mean that he hasn't led souls into serious error.
Title: Re: Father Cekada Dying
Post by: RomanCatholic1953 on September 11, 2020, 11:25:38 AM
Novus Ordo Watch

In the 09/11/2020 edition:

  • Father Anthony Cekada, R.I.P. (1951-2020) (https://mail.yahoo.com/b/folders/1/messages/AEe1X4Bf8T_MX1ufaQkYIOveKrw?.src=ym&reason=unsupported_browser&folderType=INBOX&accountIds=1&showImages=true&offset=0#mctoc1)
Father Anthony Cekada, R.I.P. (1951-2020) (https://novusordowatch.us14.list-manage.com/track/click?u=6414a9a6b1dc36dbb14983db9&id=5af2832003&e=2e446bd277)
Posted on Sep 11, 2020 11:51 am
Sedevacantist pioneer has died…

Father Anthony Cekada, R.I.P. (1951-2020)

(https://ecp.yusercontent.com/mail?url=https%3A%2F%2Fnovusordowatch.org%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2Fanthony-cekada-rip.png&t=1599841370&ymreqid=93ab06c0-34ca-5110-1c6e-94000001af00&sig=u7rkwG.CmPAc5lolNIxHNg--~D)
[size={defaultattr}][font={defaultattr}]
The sedevacantist priest, author, and seminary professor Fr. Anthony Cekada has died at his parish residence in West Chester, Ohio. This was announced moments ago on Twitter by Bp. Daniel Dolan, pastor of St. Gertrude’s Church:
[/font][/size]
Quote
Fr Cekada died peacefully this morning, surrounded by prayer, and well fortified by the Sacraments of the Church. Please remember this good and generous priestly soul in your prayers. The funeral is scheduled for Thursday morning, with the wake Wednesday evening.
(source (https://novusordowatch.us14.list-manage.com/track/click?u=6414a9a6b1dc36dbb14983db9&id=253b002815&e=2e446bd277))
[size={defaultattr}][font={defaultattr}]
Fr. Cekada had been suffering from complications after a series of strokes.
… READ MORE  (https://novusordowatch.us14.list-manage.com/track/click?u=6414a9a6b1dc36dbb14983db9&id=e97b92bd9e&e=2e446bd277)
Read in browser » (https://novusordowatch.us14.list-manage.com/track/click?u=6414a9a6b1dc36dbb14983db9&id=bb7bdbc247&e=2e446bd277)[/font][/size]
Title: Re: Father Cekada Dying
Post by: SeanJohnson on September 11, 2020, 11:26:45 AM
Though I did not see eye to eye with Fr. Cekada on the pope issue, I liked him personally, respected his intellect, and was grateful to him for his charitable email responses to various theological questions over the last few years.

I will be particularly grateful for the part he played at SGG in preserving the true/fully traditional pre-Pius XII Holy Week rites.

I will miss him, but I will never forget him.
Title: Re: Father Cekada Dying
Post by: StLouisIX on September 11, 2020, 12:02:37 PM
May the angels lead thee into Paradise; may the martyrs receive thee at thy coming, and bring thee into the holy city, Jerusalem. May the choir of angels receive thee, and with Lazarus, who once was poor, mayest thou have eternal rest.

Eternal rest grant unto him, O Lord; and let perpetual light shine upon him. May he rest in peace. Amen.  


:pray:
Title: Re: Father Cekada Dying
Post by: SoldierOfChrist on September 11, 2020, 12:06:25 PM
May he rest in peace.  I finally found his book for a reasonable price last night and ordered it.  I had tried to get a copy when I first came to Tradition, but it was selling for like $800.  I have heard that it deals with the Mass alone and does not get into the sede debate.  I did not agree with his positions on the Pope or the society, but I found plenty of what he had to say about other things to be edifying.  I am sad to hear of his death, and will pray for him.  As far as leading souls into Hell, I think that’s pretty strong.  God did not set up our salvation as a riddle or crossword puzzle to be figured out.  If people are confused about the state of the Church, about who the Pope is, or whether the Seat is vacant or not, as long as they act in good conscience to serve Our Lord with sincere obedience, if the confusion has led them to wrong conclusions about which position to take, I don’t think that God will hold that against them in the Judgement.  If, on the other hand, a priest is tell people to sin, to receive Communion after divorce, to tolerate sodomites and abortionists, then people who follow that priest will certainly be held accountable.  Because their own Catholic sense should have been screaming at them that these teachings were against God and His Church.
Title: Re: Father Cekada Dying
Post by: LeDeg on September 11, 2020, 12:15:37 PM
Perhaps you are right. Wouldn't want to put a damper on the canonization of St. Cekada, patron saint of the sedes and their supporters.

Praying for his soul is a good a very good thing to do. That doesn't mean that he hasn't led souls into serious error.
What a vile thing to say. 
Title: Re: Father Cekada Dying
Post by: Stubborn on September 11, 2020, 12:27:47 PM
 :pray:
Eternal rest grant unto him, O Lord; and let perpetual light shine upon him. May he rest in peace. Amen. 
Title: Re: Father Cekada Dying
Post by: Clemens Maria on September 11, 2020, 12:40:15 PM
Requiescat in pace.   :pray:
Title: Re: Father Cekada Dying
Post by: Quo vadis Domine on September 11, 2020, 01:20:51 PM
Though I did not see eye to eye with Fr. Cekada on the pope issue, I liked him personally, respected his intellect, and was grateful to him for his charitable email responses to various theological questions over the last few years.

I will be particularly grateful for the part he played at SGG in preserving the true/fully traditional pre-Pius XII Holy Week rites.

I will miss him, but I will never forget him.
Now this is an example of a classy post.
Title: Re: Father Cekada Dying
Post by: LeDeg on September 11, 2020, 02:21:31 PM
Now this is an example of a classy post.
Agreed. Well said, Sean.
Title: Re: Father Cekada Dying
Post by: Thorn on September 11, 2020, 02:40:51 PM
He's dying on Twitter?
:confused:
Title: Re: Father Cekada Dying
Post by: Ladislaus on September 11, 2020, 03:13:43 PM
He's dying on Twitter?
:confused:

No he has died PER Twitter, i.e. based on information someone found from a reliable source (Bishop Dolan) on Twitter.
Title: Re: Father Cekada Dying
Post by: Ladislaus on September 11, 2020, 04:22:29 PM
This is a reminder that the first generation of Traditional priests are getting old and beginning to pass away.  +Tissier is ailing, so is +Kelly.  +Williamson is getting up there in years.  So is Bishop Sanborn and Fr. Jenkins.  They were their own breed of priests and the subsequent generations just don't show the mettle of the battles they waged during the tumultuous early years of the Conciliar Revolution ... and that's one reason why we are starting to see the SSPX slouch towards Modernism.
Title: Re: Father Cekada Dying
Post by: Alexandria on September 11, 2020, 05:09:00 PM
Perhaps you are right. Wouldn't want to put a damper on the canonization of St. Cekada, patron saint of the sedes and their supporters.

Praying for his soul is a good a very good thing to do. That doesn't mean that he hasn't led souls into serious error.
Meg, I am shocked by your merciless post.
Why don't you say a rosary for his soul or, better yet, have a Mass said for him?
Title: Re: Father Cekada Dying
Post by: Nadir on September 11, 2020, 06:30:56 PM
Meg, I am shocked by your merciless post.
Why don't you say a rosary for his soul or, better yet, have a Mass said for him?
Vicious is the word for it.
I am not sedevacantist, but I can see that he was a good sincere, faithful priest. May God reward him and have mercy on his soul.
Title: Re: Father Cekada Dying
Post by: Ladislaus on September 11, 2020, 06:41:31 PM
Meg is obsessed with sedevacantism, to the point of it being a mental issue for her.  People have drawn various theological conclusions regarding the nature of this unprecedented and horrific crisis in the Church and it's ridiculous to condemn people for however they have come to terms with this diabolical confusion.  Agree or disagree with Father Cekada (and I did some of both, depending on the issue), he is arguing from CATHOLIC theological principles.
Title: Re: Father Cekada Dying
Post by: fatimarevelation23 on September 11, 2020, 07:37:55 PM
I can't believe we have people on here who don't have a respect for the death of a priest. Mind you, a priest who taught Canon Law at Most Holy Trinity Seminary. a priest who is one of the SSPX originals. a priest who exposed the evils of the new mass. I don't care if Fr. Cekada is a sedevacantist or that he split from the SSPX and jumped over to the SSPV and eventually the CMRI. I believe sedevacantism is dangerous but I will not condemn or mock a dead or dying priest because I disagree with his sedevacantist beliefs. Everyone here is a traditionalist catholic (I hope) and I hope we can all agree that when a traditionalist priest like Fr. Cekada dies, we are not to mock him while his body is warm because he is a man of God. Jesus Christ is the Great High Priest (Hebrews 4:14) and Fr. Cekada was a faithful servant of Jesus Christ here on earth. 

Let us pray for him that he may rest in peace and be well in God's kingdom. I like Matthew a lot and I agree with most things he says but I wish Matthew would've thought a little more before posting what he did. I'm sure if a Novus Ordo priest died, some people on here would condemn that priest to hell which is wrong. Some on here may even condemn Fr. Cekada to hell which is sick! It's pretty bad when we have catholics on here who will mock a priest who was faithful to the Latin Mass. Let God judge him. We are not to judge. We don't know his soul!
Title: Re: Father Cekada Dying
Post by: fatimarevelation23 on September 11, 2020, 07:39:53 PM
Perhaps you are right. Wouldn't want to put a damper on the canonization of St. Cekada, patron saint of the sedes and their supporters.

Praying for his soul is a good a very good thing to do. That doesn't mean that he hasn't led souls into serious error.

Disgusting...
Title: Re: Father Cekada Dying
Post by: Matto on September 11, 2020, 07:44:46 PM
Disgusting...

To be fair, most people who even know what sedevacantists are thinks they are schismatics. To them, Cekada spent most of his life leading souls to hell, so unkind words would not be disgusting but fitting.
Title: Re: Father Cekada Dying
Post by: fatimarevelation23 on September 11, 2020, 07:47:16 PM
To be fair, most people who even know what sedevacantists are thinks they are schismatics (even more so than they even think the SSPX is in schism). To them, Cekada spent most of his life leading souls to hell, so unkind words would not be disgusting but fitting.

So do you think that anyone who is catholic but not SSPX is in schism?
Title: Re: Father Cekada Dying
Post by: Minnesota on September 11, 2020, 07:47:27 PM
Though I did not see eye to eye with Fr. Cekada on the pope issue, I liked him personally, respected his intellect, and was grateful to him for his charitable email responses to various theological questions over the last few years.

I will be particularly grateful for the part he played at SGG in preserving the true/fully traditional pre-Pius XII Holy Week rites.

I will miss him, but I will never forget him.
An incredibly reasonable and rational post in this time.
God bless.
Title: Re: Father Cekada Dying
Post by: Matto on September 11, 2020, 07:58:25 PM
So do you think that anyone who is catholic but not SSPX is in schism?

No, I don't believe that all sedes are in schism, but many Catholics do, and I do not find them disgusting, just as many sedes believe all non sedes are not Catholic.
Title: Re: Father Cekada Dying
Post by: fatimarevelation23 on September 11, 2020, 08:02:24 PM
No, I don't believe that all sedes are in schism, but many Catholics do, and I do not find them disgusting, just as many sedes believe all non sedes are not Catholic.

Alright, I see what you are saying. I don't find them to be disgusting. I do not find Meg to be disgusting. I consider that one post Meg did to be disgusting. That wasn't a personal attack on Meg. That was simply my one word opinion on that post. Maybe I should've been more clear on that.
Title: Re: Father Cekada Dying
Post by: ByzCat3000 on September 11, 2020, 08:59:22 PM
Perhaps you are right. Wouldn't want to put a damper on the canonization of St. Cekada, patron saint of the sedes and their supporters.

Praying for his soul is a good a very good thing to do. That doesn't mean that he hasn't led souls into serious error.
It just seems like the wrong time to jump on that.  We needn't canonize him.  A simple "i'll pray for his soul" would make sense.

That said I did take note of one comment that said Fr. Cekada himself would've appreciated the dark humor.  If that's true, per those who know him, than that's fair enough
Title: Re: Father Cekada Dying
Post by: Jovita on September 11, 2020, 09:51:22 PM
R.I.P, good father, for giving us guidance on the evils of the NO mass.
http://www.newliturgicalmovement.org/2020/09/fr-anthony-cekada-rip.html#.X1w3Rd9OlTs
Title: Re: Father Cekada Dying
Post by: poche on September 11, 2020, 11:19:34 PM
No he has died PER Twitter, i.e. based on information someone found from a reliable source (Bishop Dolan) on Twitter.
May his soul and the souls of all the faithful departed rest in peace. Amen.
:pray: :pray: :pray:
Title: Re: Father Cekada Dying
Post by: Stubborn on September 12, 2020, 05:04:57 AM
Although I firmly believe Fr. Cekada was in error on many (not all) issues, it is because one of the posts in this thread confirmed that "he died well fortified by the Sacraments of the Church", which certainly must mean that he received the sacrament of Extreme Unction (https://www.cathinfo.com/the-library/extreme-unction-(the-anointing-of-the-dying)-great-indeed-are-it's-effects/) before he died, and it is on this account that I believe, and I think per the Church that we can now all believe that he escaped hell and died as one of the faithful departed, thanks to that sacrament.

Just pray daily for his soul.  







 

Title: Re: Father Cekada Dying
Post by: Meg on September 12, 2020, 09:23:26 AM
It just seems like the wrong time to jump on that.  We needn't canonize him.  A simple "i'll pray for his soul" would make sense.

That said I did take note of one comment that said Fr. Cekada himself would've appreciated the dark humor.  If that's true, per those who know him, than that's fair enough

Thank you for your charitable response. I appreciate that.

It might be a the wrong time to jump on this.....IF.... it weren't for the fact that Fr. Cekada was a dogmatic sedevacantist, which is opposed to the view of the Resistance.

Here's another way to put it. If a Modernist priest in the conciliar church were to die, would he receive the same positive reaction as has been done here? Because dogmatic sedevacantism is just the other side of the coin from modernism. Modernism and dogmatic sedevacantism are two sides of the same coin. That doesn't mean that we shouldn't pray for him (and I would never ever say that we shouldn't). I do pray for the souls in purgatory, and I know how important it is to do so. But one must be realistic.

And I'm fairly certain that Fr. Cekada was banned from this forum. He wasn't all that charitable when pushing his views on dogmatic sedevacantism.
Title: Re: Father Cekada Dying
Post by: Incredulous on September 12, 2020, 09:33:25 AM


Meg, a Catholic comment worthy of consideration.  

It did not justify a "thumbs-down".


This just bolsters the charge that "Sedes are mean people."


As they sometimes say at my work place... "Stop the hate!"  :incense:
Title: Re: Father Cekada Dying
Post by: Quo vadis Domine on September 12, 2020, 10:44:51 AM

Meg, a Catholic comment worthy of consideration.  

It did not justify a "thumbs-down".


This just bolsters the charge that "Sedes are mean people."


As they sometimes say at my work place... "Stop the hate!"  :incense:
To be clear, I didn’t down vote Meg. Incredulous, make no mistake, dogmatic R&R trads are just as “mean” as the dogmatic sedevacantists.
Title: Re: Father Cekada Dying
Post by: MMagdala on September 12, 2020, 12:12:20 PM
I wish to add that I have not forgotten the one time that Fr. Cekada called into the Catholic Answers radio show, several years ago.  it was hosted by Patrick Coffin, and I believe that PC was accompanied on that show by Tim Staples.  The discussion at some point drifted toward SV'ism, although it might not have started there.  (That part I don't remember.)  But Father called, introduced himself, and in a very charitable, non-hostile tone began to explain his position, without rancor.  They cut him off pretty quickly (initially pretending to give him a platform, then quickly retrieving it), and after they cut him off, they both ridiculed him.  This from the "more charitable" branch of Catholicism:  the Novus Ordo movement, where authority and orthodoxy are defined as hatred, but apparently ridicule is defined as charity.

Got it.
Title: Re: Father Cekada Dying
Post by: Incredulous on September 12, 2020, 12:57:58 PM


The speed and intensity of the above "thumbs-down" from our sede members, proves my point.



(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fnovusordowatch.org%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2Fr-and-r-logic2.png&f=1&nofb=1)



    The Sedes MO is very proud and sensitive to differing points of discussion.

Title: Re: Father Cekada Dying
Post by: Incredulous on September 12, 2020, 12:59:48 PM


The only time they smile is when you kiss their sede ass... and agree with them  :popcorn:





(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fnovusordowatch.org%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2Fr-and-r-logic1.png&f=1&nofb=1)


Everyone and everything is invalid, and like the Dimonds, only they enlightened sede is not going to Hell

Title: Re: Father Cekada Dying
Post by: Yeti on September 12, 2020, 02:38:42 PM
only they enlightened sede is not going to Hell
Sedes don't believe this at all. :facepalm:
Title: Re: Father Cekada Dying
Post by: Matto on September 12, 2020, 03:01:40 PM
Sedes don't believe this at all. :facepalm:

In my twelve years of experience with sedes, they are not really consistent (and not really unified either) so it is hard to know what exactly they believe as a group. Among themselves they can be all strict in condemning the "Novus Ordo Sect" and say only sedes are really Catholic and everyone else is in the "Novus Ordo Sect" or "semi-trads," but amongst mixed company they will go all ecuмenist. Sometimes they will be all rigorist and then they become weak and limp like overcooked spaghetti. I find the strict groups that everyone condemns like the Dimonds and the Ibranyis to be most consistent. Peace be upon them.
Title: Re: Father Cekada Dying
Post by: Yeti on September 12, 2020, 03:15:44 PM
I find the strict groups that everyone condemns like the Dimonds and the Ibranyis to be most consistent. Peace be upon them.
The Dimonds are Jew converts (?) anyway, and Richard Ibranyi thinks we haven't had a pope since 1130 AD, so I'm not sure what can be proved by looking at those people.
Title: Re: Father Cekada Dying
Post by: Yeti on September 12, 2020, 03:19:30 PM
I was about to call the Dimonds with a Spanish word starting with M that sounds a little like the English word "moron", but I will simply say that they are Jews who claim to have converted to Catholicism and leave it at that.
.
Regardless, with the amount that those two brothers get discussed on this website, and the amount that their tribe likewise gets discussed here, it is very strange to me that no one ever mentions the ethnic background of the Dimonds.
Title: Re: Father Cekada Dying
Post by: Incredulous on September 12, 2020, 03:21:58 PM
The Dimonds are Jew converts (?) anyway, and Richard Ibranyi thinks we haven't had a pope since 1130 AD, so I'm not sure what can be proved by looking at those people.

And how dost thou knowest that the Dimonds are born of the curse of Christ’s blood ?
:popcorn:
Title: Re: Father Cekada Dying
Post by: Yeti on September 12, 2020, 03:26:27 PM
It is a variation of the name Diamond (https://www.ancestry.com/name-origin?surname=diamond#:~:text=Diamond%20Name%20Meaning.%20Jєωιѕн%20%28αѕнкenαzιc%29%3A%20Americanized%20form%20of,a%20reference%20to%20the%20hardness%20of%20the%20stone%29.).
.
EDIT: Here is another piece of evidence from Yahoo Answers (https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090201113630AAuO2T9).
Title: Re: Father Cekada Dying
Post by: Nadir on September 12, 2020, 04:02:06 PM
The Dimonds are Jew converts (?) anyway, and Richard Ibranyi thinks we haven't had a pope since 1130 AD, so I'm not sure what can be proved by looking at those people.
What's the ? for
Title: Re: Father Cekada Dying
Post by: Yeti on September 12, 2020, 04:02:21 PM
I just started a new thread on this because this is getting off-topic for here.
Title: Re: Father Cekada Dying
Post by: Croixalist on September 12, 2020, 04:25:08 PM
I'm sad to hear about Fr. Cekada's death. He was an important voice to contend with, whose arguments must be handled with respect. While I do not agree with the Sede position, I know that if it hadn't been for the evil perpetrated by the VII Popes, there wouldn't be a need for R&Rism or SVism. The fault lies at the very top on this one. There will be a holy Pope one day and on that day we'll be able to make sense out of all of this. Requiescat in Pace.
Title: Re: Father Cekada Dying
Post by: ByzCat3000 on September 12, 2020, 10:21:36 PM
Sedes don't believe this at all. :facepalm:
as a non sede, I've defended sede clergy from the charge of believing this, and I know many sede laypeople don't believe this.  There are some super obnoxious sede laity online, however, who do
Title: Re: Father Cekada Dying
Post by: Incredulous on September 13, 2020, 11:15:35 AM
The Dimonds are Jew converts (?) anyway, and Richard Ibranyi thinks we haven't had a pope since 1130 AD, so I'm not sure what can be proved by looking at those people.

Yeti,

I believe you are right about Michael Dimond’s ethnic heritage, but allow me to extrapolate from there.

It appears Most Holy Family Monastery was a fraud from the beginning.  A Jєωιѕн writer’s den of misinformation.

Perhaps 90% of the content of their publications appears to be Catholic, but there’s the 10% poison.

Case in point, was Diamond 2006 article on the Consecration of Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary.

The article was a fascinating read, but the extreme Sede conclusions
were that we should forget about the Consecration, cause it had already been done in 1952 by Pope Pius XII.

The article was so sophisticated in it’s sleight of hand, it could not have been written by Diamond.
It was written by a team of anti-Catholic propagandists.

In other words, the Most Holy Family monastery (MHFM) is a front for rabbinic writer’s workshop... a “Ringer’s” cell of propaganda.

Their goal is “instigate” doubt and to put Catholics into despair.
Title: Re: Father Cekada Dying
Post by: DecemRationis on September 13, 2020, 11:28:47 AM

So far, regarding the Dimonds being Jєωιѕн, we have: a) some Jews have the last name, Diamond; and, b) there's an article on the Consecration of Russia that's so "sophisticated" it couldn't have been written by the Dimonds but by "ant-Catholic propogandists." 

Let me know if I left something out. 

To recap . . . so far we have nothing.   :laugh2:

I for one hope this thread disappears very fast so as not to show up on the recent topics list.

Perhaps someone wandering onto this site wouldn't exactly be fortified regarding other conclusions of Traditional Catholics.  :fryingpan:
Title: Re: Father Cekada Dying
Post by: DecemRationis on September 13, 2020, 11:31:11 AM
So far, regarding the Dimonds being Jєωιѕн, we have: a) some Jews have the last name, Diamond; and, b) there's an article on the Consecration of Russia that's so "sophisticated" it couldn't have been written by the Dimonds but by "ant-Catholic propogandists."

Let me know if I left something out.

To recap . . . so far we have nothing.   :laugh2:

I for one hope this thread disappears very fast so as not to show up on the recent topics list.

Perhaps someone wandering onto this site wouldn't exactly be fortified regarding other conclusions of Traditional Catholics.  :fryingpan:
May Father Cekada rest in peace.  :pray:

I was referring to this thread:  https://www.cathinfo.com/crisis-in-the-church/dimond-brothers-are-jews/msg714305/?topicseen#msg714305 (https://www.cathinfo.com/crisis-in-the-church/dimond-brothers-are-jews/msg714305/?topicseen#msg714305)
Title: Re: Father Cekada Dying
Post by: Quo vadis Domine on September 13, 2020, 06:12:00 PM
So far, regarding the Dimonds being Jєωιѕн, we have: a) some Jews have the last name, Diamond; and, b) there's an article on the Consecration of Russia that's so "sophisticated" it couldn't have been written by the Dimonds but by "ant-Catholic propogandists."

Let me know if I left something out.

To recap . . . so far we have nothing.   :laugh2:

I for one hope this thread disappears very fast so as not to show up on the recent topics list.

Perhaps someone wandering onto this site wouldn't exactly be fortified regarding other conclusions of Traditional Catholics.  :fryingpan:
Good post. I don’t care much for the Dimonds, but there are a lot of nuts on this site that find a jew in every box of Cracker Jack. I should get at least 2 downvotes for this one. 😂
Title: Re: Father Cekada Dying
Post by: Incredulous on September 13, 2020, 06:26:51 PM
So far, regarding the Dimonds being Jєωιѕн, we have: a) some Jews have the last name, Diamond; and, b) there's an article on the Consecration of Russia that's so "sophisticated" it couldn't have been written by the Dimonds but by "ant-Catholic propogandists."


Let me know if I left something out?




DR, You forgot discernment.

Sede's are fueled by their intellectual pride.  


But read closely the article I referenced and let me know if it's Catholic... in your estimation.  Dimonds Fatima Consecration (https://www.mostholyfamilymonastery.com/catholicchurch/consecration-russia-fatima-lucy/)

Like I said, it's a most intriguing argument, but the Dimonds couldn't have written it.  

Their "Consecration is done already" theory came from a rabbinic think tank.


Finally, from your sede perspective, help us understand the Dimond's orders and how they became "holy religious"?  :jester:




The Whole Truth about the Consecration and Conversion of Russia and the Impostor Sr. Lucy (https://www.mostholyfamilymonastery.com/catholicchurch/consecration-russia-fatima-lucy/)

By Bro. Peter Dimond, O.S.B.
-The question is: Can you handle the truth on this issue?
-The truth that you won’t hear from “Fr.” Gruner; the stunning facts on an issue that we’ve all been brainwashed only to consider from one angle
-An article that every traditional Catholic needs to read

The Third Secret of Fatima (3rd Edition) (https://www.mostholyfamilymonastery.com/truthreport/2-hour-30-minute-video-the-third-secret-of-fatima-3rd-edition-some-minor-changes-made-to-this-version/) – (2 hours 30 minutes)
Proverbs 16:7- “When the ways of man shall please the Lord, He will convert even his enemies to peace.”Our Lady: “If they listen to my requests, Russia will be converted and there will be peace.”

Proverbs 16:7- “When the ways of man shall please the Lord, He will convert even his enemies to peace.”
“…cuм placuerint Domino viae hominis inimicos quoque eius convertet ad pacem.”
* If you have the capability, you will want to print this article in color, since there are color pictures.
* Emphasis in this article (bolding, underlining and italicization) is not necessarily that of the quoted author and is usually my own.

IN THIS ARTICLE:

-FACT #1: POPE PIUS XII CONSECRATED RUSSIA TO THE IMMACULATE HEART OF MARY – POPE PIUS XII CONSECRATED NOT THE WORLD, BUT SPECIFICALLY RUSSIA, ON JULY 7, 1952

-FACT #2: WHAT OUR LADY MEANS BY THE CONVERSION OF RUSSIA – THE STRIKING EVIDENCE
-THIS POSITION IS FURTHER SUBSTANTIATED BY CONSIDERING PORTUGAL – “THE SHOWCASE OF OUR LADY”
-THIS POSITION IS FURTHER SUBSTANTIATED BY SR. LUCY’S SUMMARY OF THE TUY VISION
-“THE GOOD WILL BE MARTYRED” AND “VARIOUS NATIONS WILL BE ANNIHILATED” ARE PROPHECIES THAT HAVE ALREADY BEEN FULFILLED
-WHAT RUSSIA WAS CONVERTED FROM – SNAPSHOTS OF THE SATANIC REGIME IN COMMUNIST RUSSIA
-HE WILL DO THE CONSECRATION, BUT IT WILL BE “LATE”
-OUR LADY’S WORDS REVEAL TO US THAT HER TRIUMPH IS NOT A UNIVERSAL TRIUMPH OR REIGN OF PEACE, BUT ONLY A “CERTAIN” PERIOD OF PEACE
-THE CONVERSION OF RUSSIA =…
-THE EVIDENCE
-SOME LEFTOVER OBJECTIONS – AND SR. LUCY DIDN’T EVEN KNOW IF PIUS XII’S 1942 CONSECRATION OF THE WORLD WAS ACCEPTED IN HEAVEN
-PART II: THE EVIDENCE EXPOSING THE IMPOSTOR SR. LUCY
-THE FALSE MESSAGE OF “FR.” NICHOLAS GRUNER
One of the most frequent questions that we receive concerns Our Lady’s statement at Fatima on July 13, 1917:

Quote
You see hell, where the souls of poor sinners go.  To save them God wishes to establish in the world the devotion to my Immaculate Heart.  If they do what I will tell you, many souls will be saved, and there will be peace.  The war is going to end.  But if they do not stop offending God, another and worse war will begin in the reign of Pius XI. When you shall see a night illuminated by an unknown light, know that it is a great sign that God gives you that He is going to punish the world for its crimes by means of war, of hunger, and of persecution of the Church and of the Holy Father.  To prevent this I come to ask the consecration of Russia to my Immaculate Heart and the Communion of reparation on the first Saturdays.  If they listen to my requests, Russia will be converted and there will be peace.  If not she will scatter her errors through the world, provoking wars and persecutions of the Church.  The good will be martyred, the Holy Father will have much to suffer, various nations will be annihilated.  In the end my Immaculate Heart will triumph.  The Holy Father will consecrate Russia to me, and it will be converted and a certain period of peace will be granted to the world.”

The Vatican II “Popes” must be true Popes, so the objection goes, because one of them will finally consecrate Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary and the entire nation will be converted to the Catholic Faith.  That hasn’t happened, so you cannot be right that they are Antipopes.
First, in examining this issue it is important for people to clear their minds of any preconceived notions or prejudices in this area.  They must be prepared to take a fresh new look at the facts.  Let’s jump right into this very important issue:

FACT #1: POPE PIUS XII CONSECRATED RUSSIA TO THE IMMACULATE HEART OF MARY – POPE PIUS XII CONSECRATED NOT THE WORLD, BUT SPECIFICALLY RUSSIA, ON JULY 7, 1952

Many know that Pope Pius XII consecrated the world to the Immaculate Heart of Mary in 1942.  Many do not know that Pope Pius XII specifically consecrated Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary in 1952.

I didn’t know this until I began studying this issue in some depth.  But this important fact is revealed even in the books promoted by “Fr.” Nicholas Gruner’s apostolate.

Quote
Frere Michel de la Sainte Trinite, The Whole Truth About Fatima, Vol. 1, p. 498: “…in 1952.  On July 7 of the same year, a month after the article by Dhanis, Pope Pius XII in his apostolic letter Sacro Vergente Anno, accomplished this consecration of Russia and it alone, by name – so much for Dhanis declaring it impossible!” (Immaculate Heart Publications)
This fact can also be found in the book Fatima in Twilight:

Quote
Mark Fellows, Fatima in Twilight, p. 119: “The letter went on to request that Pius consecrate Russia to the Immaculate Heart.  He [Pius XII] did so in a letter to all Russians (Sacro vergente anno), writing in pertinent part, ‘today we consecrate and in a most special manner entrust all the peoples of Russia to this Immaculate Heart…’” (Marmion Publications, 2003)
Here are the words of Pope Pius XII:

Quote
Pope Pius XII, Sacro Vergente Anno (Apostolic Letter), July 7, 1952: “…just as a few years ago We consecrated the entire human race to the Immaculate Heart of the Virgin Mary, Mother of God, so today We consecrate and in a most special manner We entrust all the peoples of Russia to this Immaculate Heart…”
Thus, it is an undeniable fact that Pope Pius XII specifically consecrated Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary.
But didn’t Our Lady promise that Russia would be consecrated in union with all the bishops of the world?  No!  This is a key point.  Our Lady requested that Russia be consecrated in union with all the bishops of the world, but on July 13 she only promised that “In the end my Immaculate Heart will triumph.  The Holy Father will consecrate Russia to me, and it will be converted and a certain period of peace will be granted to the world.”  Notice that Our Lady didn’t promise: “The Holy Father and all the bishops will consecrate Russia to me…”  Further, heaven revealed that the actual fulfillment of the consecration of Russia would not be fully in accord with heaven’s original wishes; for instance, it would be “late” (more on this in a bit).


FACT #2: OUR LADY NEVER SAID THAT THE CONVERSION OF RUSSIA MEANS THAT RUSSIA WOULD BE CONVERTED TO THE CATHOLIC FAITH

The question that we must re-examine is: did Our Lady ever say that Russia would be converted to “the Catholic Faith”?  Is there any evidence that Our Lady ever said that Russia would be converted to the Catholic Faith?  The answer, which will probably surprise many, is no.  I have just completed a careful study of Frere Michel’s 3-volume work The Whole Truth About Fatima (more than 2000 pages on the issue).  I was looking for some evidence, any evidence, that Our Lady ever said that the “conversion” of Russia means that the nation of Russia will be converted to the Catholic Faith.  In the entire 3-volume set, there is no evidence whatsoever that Our Lord or Our Lady ever promised that Russia would be converted to the Catholic Faith.  [Please note: I’m not examining the question of whether heaven would want the conversion of Russia to the Catholic Faith, which of course it would, since outside the Catholic Church there is no salvation.  Rather, I’m addressing the question of whether heaven ever said or promised that the nation of Russia would be converted to the Catholic Faith.  There is no evidence that heaven ever promised that Russia would be converted to the Catholic Faith.]

But of course it means that the entire country will be converted to the Catholic Faith,” as one person told us, “for it couldn’t mean anything else!”  This person even said that it is absurd to think that Our Lady would ever use the word “conversion” to mean anything but a conversion to the true Faith.  Oh really?  Well, this person may be surprised to learn that in Proverbs 16:7 we find a reference to “conversion” that does not mean conversion to the true faith, but the conversion of a persecuting enemy to peace (i.e. to a cessation of his persecuting ways).

Proverbs 16:7- “When the ways of man shall please the Lord, He will convert even his enemies to peace.”
In fact, notice the similarity between Our Lady’s words of July 13 and Proverbs 16:7: in the context of both, conversion is immediately linked with peace, after a man fulfills the request of the Lord.  

Proverbs 16:7- “When the ways of man shall please the Lord, He will convert even his enemies to peace.”Our Lady: “If they listen to my requests, Russia will be converted and there will be peace.”

After studying this issue in depth, and taking a fresh new look at the facts, I am of the firm opinion that Our Lady’s words correspond to what we read here in Proverbs 16:7: the “conversion” of Russia does not mean the conversion of the nation to the Catholic faith, but rather the conversion of a persecuting enemy (Russia) to a certain period of peace.  We will see exactly what this means as we proceed, and that the evidence from the message of Fatima supports this conclusion.

THIS POSITION IS FURTHER SUBSTANTIATED BY CONSIDERING PORTUGAL – “THE SHOWCASE OF OUR LADY”

To attempt to substantiate their position that Russia has not been consecrated, “Fr.” Gruner and his supporters often bring up the case of Portugal as the “Showcase of Our Lady.”  They point out that when the Portuguese Bishops consecrated their nation to the Immaculate Heart of Mary on May 13, 1931, the result was an incredible Catholic renaissance and social reform.  They say that Our Lady used Portugal as a “showcase” of what she would do for Russia and the rest of the world.

Quote
John Vennari, “It Doesn’t Add Up,” The Fatima Crusader, Issue #70: “Thus it is not hard to understand why Portugal at this time has been called the ‘Showcase of Our Lady’. And this triple miracle of Portugal stands as a preview of how Russia and the world will look after the Collegial Consecration of Russia.”
However, in bringing up the example of Portugal, they provide more evidence that Our Lady’s promise of the “conversion” of Russia did not mean the conversion of the entire nation to the Catholic Faith.  For they fail to note that even after the bishops consecrated the nation of Portugal (a nation that was already almost entirely Catholic in population) the country did not become a Catholic country!
Quote
Frere Michel de la Sainte Trinite, The Whole Truth About Fatima, Vol. 2, p. 420: “Curiously, in this accord [of the Portuguese nation], the Catholic religion is not recognized as the official religion of the Portuguese State, and therefore in theory the separation of Church and State remains.”
If Portugal itself (a nation that was already almost entirely Catholic) wasn’t even changed into a Catholic country after its consecration, this is further evidence that the conversion of Russia does not mean a conversion of the nation to the Catholic faith.  The 1959 Portuguese Constitution doesn’t even mention the name of God.  (WTAF, Vol. 3, p. 741)
THIS POSITION IS FURTHER SUBSTANTIATED BY SR. LUCY’S SUMMARY OF THE TUY VISION
In order to attempt to substantiate their position that Russia will be converted to the Catholic faith, many cite the vision of Tuy, in which Our Lady promised to “save” Russia:
Quote
Our Lady to Sr. Lucy, June 13, 1929, at Tuy: “The moment has come when God asks the Holy Father to make, in union with all the bishops of the world, the consecration of Russia to My Immaculate Heart, promising to save it by this means.” (WTAF, Vol. 2, p. 464)
What is HUGELY SIGNIFICANT is that Frere Michel admits that Sr. Lucy summarized this communication at Tuy in a slightly different manner in two letters to Fr. Goncalves:
Quote
Frere Michel de la Sainte Trinite, The Whole Truth About Fatima, Vol. 2, p. 465: “[page after quoting what you just read] Let us point out right away that in 1930, in two letters to Father Goncalves, Sister Lucy was to express in a slightly different manner the requests of heaven… [Sister Lucy]: ‘The good Lord promises to end the persecution in Russia, if the Holy Father will himself make a solemn act of reparation and consecration of Russia to the Sacred Hearts of Jesus and Mary, as well as ordering all the bishops of the Catholic Church to do the same.  The Holy Father must then promise that upon the ending of this persecution he will approve and recommend the practice of the reparatory devotion already described.’”
So, according to Sr. Lucy, the message at Tuy that Our Lord will “save” Russia means that the Lord promises to “end the persecution in Russia,” thus corroborating the point that there is no evidence that heaven ever promised that Russia would be converted to the Catholic faith.  We find the same thing in another vision that Our Lord granted to Sr. Lucy in 1940:

Quote
Our Lord to Sr. Lucy, Oct. 22, 1940: “I will punish the nations for their crimes by means of war, famine and persecution of My Church and this will weigh especially upon My Vicar on earth.  His Holiness will obtain an abbreviation of these days of tribulation if he takes heed of My wishes by promulgating the Act of Consecration of the whole world to the Immaculate Heart of Mary, with a special mention of Russia.” (The Whole Truth About Fatima – abbreviated: WTAF, Vol. 2, p. 732)
The consecration of Russia will “obtain an abbreviation” of the tribulation that is caused by the persecutions of Russia, perfectly coinciding with our point about what Our Lady meant by the “conversion” of Russia.  Most importantly, however, we can see what Our Lady meant in context by the conversion of Russia in a careful consideration of her words on July 13.

Quote
The war is going to end.  But if they do not stop offending God, another and worse war will begin in the reign of Pius XI. When you shall see a night illuminated by an unknown light, know that it is a great sign that God gives you that He is going to punish the world for its crimes by means of war, of hunger, and of persecution of the Church and of the Holy Father.  To prevent this I come to ask the consecration of Russia to my Immaculate Heart and the Communion of reparation on the first Saturdays.  If they listen to my requests, Russia will be converted and there will be peace.  If not she will scatter her errors through the world, provoking wars and persecutions of the Church.  The good will be martyred, the Holy Father will have much to suffer, various nations will be annihilated.  In the end my Immaculate Heart will triumph.  The Holy Father will consecrate Russia to me, and it will be converted and a certain period of peace will be granted to the world.”
Notice, the consecration of Russia was specifically requested to prevent “war… hunger and persecution of the Church…”  This shows us that Our Lady’s words on the consecration of Russia were firmly set within this context – i.e. converting this enemy to peace from these persecutions of “war… hunger… of the Church.”

This point is corroborated when one considers the “great sign” mentioned by Our Lady in the context of her request for the consecration of Russia.  Our Lady says: “When you shall see a night illuminated by an unknown light, know that it is a great sign that God gives you that He is going to punish the world for its crimes by means of war, of hunger, and of persecution of the Church and of the Holy Father.  To prevent this…”  This “sign” was not some “small sign,” but the “great sign” that heaven gave in the context of the consecration of Russia and the punishments the consecration of Russia would prevent.
Well, everyone knows that this “great sign” was the unknown light that lit up the sky on Jan. 25, 1938, just prior to the events that precipitated World War II.

Quote
An aurora borealis of exceptional size furrowed the sky of Western Europe last night; it caused an uproar in a number of departments, which at first believed it to be a gigantic fire.  In the entire region of the Alps, the population was much intrigued by this strange spectacle.  The sky was ablaze like an immense moving furnace, provoking a very strong blood-red glow.” (Le Nouvelliste de Lyon, Jan. 26, 1938.)
I think that most people can agree that this sign doesn’t seem that significant to us from our vantage point today.  Yet, within the context of the consecration of Russia, and the “war… hunger… and persecution of the Church…” which it was requested to prevent, this was the “great sign” that heaven gave.  This shows us again how firmly within this specific context Our Lady’s words for the consecration of Russia were – converting this enemy to peace from its persecutions of war, persecutions of the Church, etc.
“THE GOOD WILL BE MARTYRED” AND “VARIOUS NATIONS WILL BE ANNIHILATED” ARE PROPHECIES THAT HAVE ALREADY BEEN FULFILLED
In order to further understand what Our Lady meant by the “conversion” of Russia, it is important for us to understand what she meant by things she mentioned in the same context; for instance, “various nations will be annihilatedand “the good will be martyred.”  

Quote
Our Lady of Fatima, July 13, 1917:If they listen to my requests, Russia will be converted and there will be peace.  If not she will scatter her errors through the world, provoking wars and persecutions of the Church.  The good will be martyred, the Holy Father will have much to suffer, various nations will be annihilated…”
Many believe that Our Lady’s words “various nations will be annihilated” and “the good will be martyred” (as a result of the spread of Russia’s errors) still have not been fulfilled.  However, the truth is that both of these things have already been fulfilled.

VARIOUS NATIONS WERE ANNIHILATED
As we will see, even Frere Michel, an author whose work is promoted by Nicholas Gruner’s apostolate, admits that the Soviet Union’s takeover of the Baltic nations and other small States during the period of World War II, which it simply annexed to itself making them exist no longer, constituted the annihilation of nations of which Our Lady spoke.

Quote
Frere Michel de la Sainte Trinite, The Whole Truth About Fatima, Vol. 3, p. 190: “In 1939 the USSR was still the only communist state in the world… Six years laterseveral nations were erased from the map, absorbed by the Soviet empire, a dozen countries entered Moscow’s orbit and retained only the appearance of liberty, while others were agitated by internal wars or gravely threatened by communist subversion.  The prophecy of Fatima was being fulfilled to the letter.”

Besides the nations of Poland, Hungary, Czechoslovakia, Romania, Bulgaria, etc. which entered the orbit of the Soviet Empire, and were reduced to puppets of its machine, the Baltic nations, Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia, were actually erased from the map – completely annihilated by full absorption into the Soviet Empire.

Quote
The small Baltic nations – Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia – were now ready for Stalin to pluck.  He moved at once to impose ‘mutual assistance treaties’ on them, whose only significant clause provided for stationing large numbers of Soviet troops on their territory.  These treaties were signed on September 28 (Estonia), October 5 (Latvia), and October 10 (Lithuania).  They could now be taken over at any time.” (Warren H. Carroll, The Rise and Fall of the Communist Revolution, Christendom Press, p. 310)
An article carried on the website of the Joint Baltic American National Committee notes that:

Quote
“On July 23, 1940, Sumner Welles, acting US Secretary of State, stated that the ‘devious processes whereby the political independence and territorial integrity of the three small Baltic republics – Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania – were to be deliberately annihilated by one of their more powerful neighbors, have been rapidly drawn to their conclusion.’” (Joint Baltic American Committee, http://www.jbanc.org/65joint.html)
Notice, the absorption of the Baltic nations by the Soviet Union “annihilated” the political independence and territorial integrity of these nations (i.e., annihilated their nationhood itself)!  Another article on the website of the Joint Baltic American Committee notes that “…communism will be remembered not so much for what it left behind as for what it didn’t.  The decades of totalitarian rule annihilated cultures…” (http://store.yahoo.com/jbanc2000/newsun.html)
Our Lady’s words about the annihilation of nations clearly refer to the Soviet Union’s takeover of the Baltic nations, which literally erased them from the map by absorption.  But there are some who believe that Our Lady’s words refer to nuclear catastrophe that will happen in the future.  To attempt to prove this point, they will quote Sr. Lucy’s words to Fr. Fuentes.

Sister Lucy to Fr. Fuentes, 1957: “Tell them, Father, that many times the Most Holy Virgin told my cousins Francisco and Jacinta, as well as myself, that many nations will disappear from the face of the earth.  She said that Russia will be the instrument of chastisement chosen by Heaven to punish the whole world if we do not beforehand obtain the conversion of that poor nation.”

Sr. Lucy is obviously reiterating Our Lady’s words about the annihilation of nations.  However, if a nation were devastated by nuclear catastrophe, it wouldn’t disappear.  It would still be visible, but as an empty and devastated wasteland.  The only way to make a nation literally “disappear” is by erasing it from the map by incorporation into another country, as happened with the Soviet Union’s takeover of the Baltic nations.  In stunning confirmation of this point, here is what the Soviet Foreign Minister, Molotov, said to the Lithuanian Foreign Minister (concerning the Soviet Union’s imminent takeover of the Baltic nations):

Quote
Soviet Foreign Minister, Molotov, to Lithuanian Foreign Minister: “You must take a good look at reality and understand that in the future small nations will have to disappear.  Your Lithuania along with the other Baltic nations…” (quoted by Warren H. Carroll, The Rise and Fall of the Communist Revolution, p. 306)
(https://www.mostholyfamilymonastery.com/Article_pictures/Europe_before_WWII.jpg)
This map (above) of Eastern Europe before World War II defines the Baltic nations (Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania) before they were annihilated and made to disappear by full absorption into the satanic Soviet Empire

(https://www.mostholyfamilymonastery.com/Article_pictures/communistbloc.jpg)
This map of Eastern Europe and the Communist Bloc after WWII defines the disappearance and annihilation of the Baltic nations by full absorption into the Soviet Empire

The annihilation of nations, the making of nations “disappear,” clearly refers to the Soviet Union and its takeover of the Baltic States.  Frere Michel even applies the “annihilation of nations” to the other nations that the Soviet Union incorporated into its orbit as satellites, such as Poland, etc.  However, it most specifically refers to the erasing of the Baltic nations, as well as other small provinces such as North Bukovina and Bessarabia.  And this surely would have happened to “many” other nations if Russia had not been consecrated.

Quote
Frere Michel de la Sainte Trinite, The Whole Truth About Fatima, Vol. 3, pp. 193-194: “Is it necessary to enumerate these nations, which perhaps Our Lady of Fatima designated, announcing that ‘various nations will be annihilated’?  Torn from their age-old traditions, and from their Church, their society destroyed by the great Bolshevik machine, in effect, these countries are no longer themselves… There is Albania, where the persecution against the Church began in 1945.  There is Hungary, with its 7 million Catholics out of 10 million inhabitants, where the apostolic nuncio was expelled in April, 1945… There is Poland (22 million Catholics), where in September, 1945, the government decided to break the concordat.  There is Czechoslovakia, where out of 12 million inhabitants, almost nine million were Catholics.  There is Orthodox Romania with its valiant minority of 3 million Eastern Rite faithful, where the government awaits the favorable hour to perform the same forced integration to the schismatic Church as in Ukraine.  There is Bulgaria, where the Church numbers only 57,000.  There is Tito’s Yugoslavia… where a bloody persecution began in June – July, 1945.”
In every Communist nation controlled by the Soviet Union, the press, the radio and education were totally controlled by the State.  This became the sad and gloomy reality in country after country that fell to Communism.  All of these satellites also vigorously persecuted the Church.  For instance:

Quote
“In Romania, with the active complicity of Patriarch Alexis of Moscow and the entire Orthodox national hierarchy, the communists decided on the liquidation, pure and simple, of the Greek-Catholic Church, which numbered 1,600,000 Faithful at the time.  ‘Towards the end of October, 1948, they proceeded to arrest the Byzantine Catholic Bishops, vicar generals, canons, and the majority of priests, about 600 in all.  The government then proceeded to the confiscation of churches, and convents of monks and religious, in spite of their resistance.’  On December 1 [1948], the communist government published the decree suppressing the Eastern Catholic Church.” (WTAF, Vol. 3, pp. 255-256)
And this led to the “good being martyred,” which has also been fulfilled:

THE GOOD WERE MARTYRED
It is simply a fact that countless Catholics were martyred at the hands of the Soviet Union and its Communist satellites.  Since this is well known, I will not give many quotes to prove the point.  But it is significant to note again that even Frere Michel, whose work on Fatima is promoted by “Fr.” Nicholas Gruner, admits that the “good will be martyred” has already occurred.

Quote
Frere Michel de la Sainte Trinite, The Whole Truth About Fatima, Vol. 2, p. 764: “When, in a letter of January 21, 1940, Sister Lucy mentioned in connection with the war ‘the blood spilled by the martyrs’, which in the end would appease the divine wrath, and when Our Lady announced in her Secret that ‘the good will be martyred,’ how can we forget about these millions of Ukrainian or Polish Catholics martyred by the Bolsheviks?
A prime example comes from Russia in 1923.  At that time, Moscow attempted to blackmail the Vatican into granting its regime diplomatic recognition.  Moscow gave orders for the arrest of high-placed cleric Msgr. Cieplak (apostolic administrator of the diocese of Mohilev), his vicar general, Msgr. Budkiewicz, and thirteen other priests.  These clerics declared that they would not observe the 1922 law of the Soviet Union forbidding teaching the Catholic Faith to children (Warren H. Carroll, The Rise and Fall of the Communist Revolution, p. 310).  Moscow agreed to their release if the Vatican agreed to diplomatic relations with its regime.  The Russian regime knew that once the Vatican established diplomatic relations with it, the rest of Europe would follow.   But the Vatican could not grant it such recognition, so Moscow executed the sentence:

Quote
On Holy Thursday of 1923, Msgr. Budkiewicz was martyred with frightful cruelty.  Brutally pushed across a dark corridor, he fell and broke his legStripped of his clothes and no longer able to walk, the martyr was dragged by the ears all the way to the detachment of guards.  One of his ears had been severed.  In the gaping hole, he was given a revolver shot.  Father Walsh… heard the shot ring out among shouts, drunken singing and bursts of laughter.  So that no relics would remain, the martyr’s body was burned and his ashes dispersed.  And this was the signal for a series of attacks against the hierarchy, clergy and laity, many of whom were sent to the icy prisons of Solowki on the Black Sea, where a cσncєnтrαтισn cαмρ was specially assigned for Christians; others died in prison, some of them reduced to madness by the torments they had endured.” (WTAF, Vol. 2, pp. 576-577)
“…during the year 1922 alone more than 800 Catholic and Orthodox priests, brothers and nuns were shot in Russia.” (WTAF, Vol. 2, p. 564)
Pope Pius XI, Letter to Cardinal Pompili, Feb. 2, 1930: “This past year during the Christmas holy days, not only were hundreds of churches [in Russia] closed, great numbers of icons burned, all workers and schoolchildren compelled to work and Sundays suppressed, but they even compelled factory workers, both men and women, to sign a declaration of formal apostasy and hatred against God, or else be deprived of their bread rationing cards, without which every inhabitant of this poor country is reduced to dying of hunger, misery and cold.  Among other things, in all the cities and in many villages… during the Christmas holy days last year: they witnessed a procession of tanks manned by numerous ruffians clad with sacred vestments, taking the cross in derision and spitting upon it while other armored cars transported huge Christmas trees, from which marionettes representing Catholic and Orthodox bishops were hung by the neck.  In the center of the city, other young hoodlums committed all sorts of sacrileges against the cross.” (quoted in WTAF, Vol. 2, p. 539)

In 1946 the Soviet authorities removed every Lithuanian bishop but one from his diocese… From 1946 to 1948, 357 priests – one-third of all the priests in Lithuania – were deported to labor camps in Russia and Siberia.  One of them, who had been sentenced to 25 years (which meant death, since virtually no one survived more than ten years in the camps) was offered his freedom, one of the largest churches in Vilinius, and 100,000 rubles if he would head a schismatic Lithuanian Catholic church.  He refused, and disappears.” (Warren H. Carroll, The Rise and Fall of the Communist Revolution, pp. 364-365)
(As an aside, this priest could have been spared the horrors of the labor camps if he had simply consented to becoming an Eastern Schismatic.  He refused, and suffered horribly.  This shows us again the evil of false ecuмenism.  Post-Vatican II ecuмenism, which accepts and praises Eastern Orthodoxy, holds that his martyrdom was pointless.)
(https://www.mostholyfamilymonastery.com/Article_pictures/lithuanoccupied.jpg)
Dead bodies of Lithuanians after the Soviet Union eliminated those it deemed threats to full takeover
In 1936, the errors of Russian communism stirred up a revolution and the Spanish cινιℓ ωαr.  What resulted was arguably the worst persecution of the Catholic Church in history:

Quote
Almost all at once the h0Ɩ0cαųst of Spain began [in 1936].  The chief target of the revolutionaries was… the Catholic Church.  During the next three months, the Catholic priests, religious and laity who were caught in the half of Spain where the Republic retained control, were the victims of the bloodiest persecution the Church has experienced since that of the Roman Emperor Diocletian in the fourth century.  In all, 6,549 priests and 283 nuns were martyred, many in the classic circuмstances of martyrdom, offered life if they renounced their faith and death if they upheld it.” (Warren H. Carroll, The Rise and Fall of the Communist Revolution, p. 285)
Hugh Thomas, considered the premier historian of the Spanish cινιℓ ωαr, gives us some details on these martyrdoms:
Quote
“In Cervera, rosary beads were forced into monks’ ears till their eardrums were perforatedCertain persons were burned, and others buried, alive – the latter after being forced to dig their own graves.  At Alcazar de San Juan a young man, distinguished for his piety, had his eyes dug out.  In that province, Ciudad Real, the crimes were indeed atrocious.  A crucifix was forced down the mouth of the mother of two Jesuits.  Eight hundred persons were thrown down a mine shaft.” (quoted by Carroll, The Rise and Fall of the Communist Revolution, p. 286)
That the Spanish persecution was fueled and stirred up by the errors of Russia is beyond question; even some of the “attackers carried red banners with the hammer and sickle.” (Carroll, p. 288)

One could multiply examples of the good being martyred for pages.  For instance, after the Soviet Union’s forced “reunification” of the schismatic “Church” with the Greek Catholic Church in 1945, there were countless Ukrainian Catholics who were martyred for their Faith:

Quote
Cardinal Slipyi: “On April 11, 1945, I was arrested with all the other bishops.  Less than a year later, over 800 priests had followed us into captivity.  From March 8-10, 1946, the illegal Synod of Lvov took place.  Under atheist pressure it proclaimed the ‘reunification,’ and by the very fact, the official liquidation of our Church was effected by brutal force.  The bishops were deported to every corner of the Soviet Union.  Almost all of them have died since then, or were killed in captivity… over 1,400 priests and 800 religious, to tens of thousands of the Faithful who in captivity sealed, by the sacrifice of their life, their fidelity to the Pope, the Roman Apostolic See and the Universal Church.” (WTAF, Vol. 3, p. 192)
It is a fact that doesn’t need to be proven any further: the good were martyred in the Soviet Union, in its Communist satellites, and in other countries, such as Spain, where the errors of Russia stirred up bloody persecution.  Our Lady’s words that the good will be martyred, and various nations will be annihilated, have already been fulfilled.

Quote
Our Lady: “If they listen to my requests, Russia will be converted and there will be peace.  If not she will scatter her errors through the world, provoking wars and persecutions of the Church.  The good will be martyred, the Holy Father will have much to suffer, various nations will be annihilated.  In the end my Immaculate Heart will triumph.  The Holy Father will consecrate Russia to me, and it will be converted and a certain period of peace will be granted to the world.”
Sr. Lucy to Fr. Jongen, Feb. 1946: “I think that now Our Lady’s words are being fulfilled: ‘If this is not done (she had just recalled ‘the exact request’ of the Blessed Virgin) Russia will spread her errors throughout the world.’” (WTAF, Vol. 3, p. 123)
Some also ask: what about the persecution of the Holy Father, who will “have much to suffer”?  What is the meaning of this?  We find the answer in the aforementioned message of Our Lord to Sr. Lucy from 1940:

Quote
Our Lord to Sr. Lucy, Oct. 22, 1940: “I will punish the nations for their crimes by means of war, famine and persecution of My Church and this will weigh especially upon My Vicar on earth.  His Holiness will obtain an abbreviation of these days of tribulation if he takes heed of My wishes by promulgating the Act of Consecration of the whole world to the Immaculate Heart of Mary, with a special mention of Russia.” (WTAF, Vol. 2, p. 732)
The persecution of the Church during this period – the torture and martyrdom of priests and faithful, the suppression of ecclesiastical activity – weighed as an incredible burden and torment on the Pope who felt responsible, yet helpless, in the face of this tragedy.  With these facts in mind, we can see that all four aspects of Our Lady’s message, the spread of Russia’s errors, the martyrdom of the good, the annihilation of nations and the suffering of the Holy Father, had their application to this period.

What people fail to realize is that Our Lady’s request for the consecration of Russia was given in this very same context.  The consecration and conversion of Russia was intended to prevent the punishments and torments and persecutions of Russia mentioned in this context.  In line with Proverbs 16:7, and Sr. Lucy’s summary of the Tuy vision, it means converting this enemy to peace from its ways of persecution.

That is why Our Lady came to Tuy in 1929 to ask for the consecration of Russia.  In fact, Sr. Lucy didn’t mention a word about Russia until 1929.  1929 was a time when the horrors of Stalin’s Gulag started to become known in the world.  It was a time when the persecutions of Russia were about to reach their apex. 1929 was just prior to Stalin’s policy of “dekulakization,” a policy imposed from 1930-1934, which resulted in the death of millions of peasant farmers.  1929 was also just prior to Stalin’s unspeakable imposed famine of 1933, which resulted in the deaths of millions.  It makes sense that Our Lady would come back to ask for the consecration of Russia in order to prevent these horrible persecutions when they were at, or were about to reach, their most gruesome point.  The most serious demographers count at least fifteen million victims at the hands of Bolshevik Russia from the years 1929-1933 (WTAF, Vol. 2, p. 457).

At this point, it is very important for us to look at what those errors of Russia had become.  We need to get a closer look at the satanic regime of Communist Russia to get a better grasp on the context of the message of Our Lady.

WHAT RUSSIA WAS CONVERTED FROM – SNAPSHOTS OF THE SATANIC REGIME IN COMMUNIST RUSSIA
(https://www.mostholyfamilymonastery.com/Article_pictures/leninsmall.jpg)
Vladimir Lenin, maker of the Communist revolution, mass-murderer, and leader of Communist Russia from 1917-1924
In 1917, Lenin closed all Catholic churches in Petrograd (Warren H. Carroll, The Rise and Fall of the Communist Revolution, p. 169)
In 1918, Lenin shut down all newspapers in Moscow except those published by the Communists.  This was soon extended to all printed material, including periodicals, etc. (Warren H. Carroll, The Rise and Fall of the Communist Revolution, p. 116)

Quote
“In 1918, one could read the following words in the official organ of the Soviet of Petrograd: ‘We will render our hearts cruel, harsh, without pity.  We will open the dams of this bloody sea.  Without pity, without mercy, we will kill our enemies by the thousands.  We will drown them in their own blood.” (WTAF, Vol. 2, p. 454)
A decree of February 26, 1922 confiscated all the treasures of the Church, including consecrated objects.  At the same time, and this was still the very early stage of the Bolshevik horrors, Cardinal Mercier published the first figures of the persecution: “Statistics for the victims of the persecution are frightening.  Since November 1917, 260,000 simple soldier prisoners and 54,000 officers; 18,000 landed proprietors; 35,000 ‘intellectuals’; 192,000 workers; 815,000 peasants; 28 bishops and 1,215 priests were put to death.” (WTAF, Vol. 2, p. 451)

Things were so bad in Russia in 1922, that Pope Pius XI published the apostolic letter Annus Fere, ordering a general collection in favor of the starving Russian people.  In it, he spoke of the horrors suffered by the Russian people.  Though he didn’t denounce the satanic Communist regime in Russia by name, Pius XI spoke of “the extreme misery of the Russian people, who were decimated by disease and famine, victims of the greatest calamity in history…” (WTAF, Vol. 2, p. 565)

Shortly after taking over Russia, in 1919 Lenin established the Gulag.  The Gulag was a network of cσncєnтrαтισn cαмρs to which all “enemies” of the State could be sent.

Quote
In April 1919, following Dzerzhinsky’s recommendation and with Lenin’s approval, the Soviet government ordered the establishment of a network of cσncєnтrαтισn cαмρs, at least one per province, the first of its kind in history, which served as a model and inspiration to Hitler and his nαzιs and was later to become infamous as the GULAG.  By 1923 the number of these camps had reached 315.” (Warren H. Carroll, The Rise and Fall of the Communist Revolution, p. 142)
It’s important for us to get a glimpse of the horrors of the Gulag.  For this purpose, I will quote from Warren H. Carroll who, in turn, draws from Alexander Solzhenitsyn’s famed work, The Gulag Archipelago.
(https://www.mostholyfamilymonastery.com/Article_pictures/solzhenitsyn_big.jpg)
Alexander Solzhenitsyn as Gulag labor camp prisoner scs 262

Quote
“The famine dealt out death at home, or as far away from home as dying men could walk.  The labor camps dealt out death afarIt seems almost presumptuous for any man to write of the gulag, after Alexander Solzhenitsyn.  He was in it; he made its theme his own; he changed the world and history by what he wrote about it… Here we can only select, here and there, from Solzhenitsyn, and annotate him – to give a bit of the sense, the flavor, the sound of the wind from hell that blew across those killing grounds in the wilderness.” (Warren H. Carroll, The Rise and Fall of the Communist Revolution, p. 243)
Carroll then proceeds to describe the labor camp at Orotukan:

Quote
We may begin with Orotukan.  In the middle of the second volume of The Gulag Archipelago, Solzhenitsyn concludes a brief description of Orotukan (which he then locates only by a reference to the Kolyma River in far northern Siberia), whose horrors sound as bad but no worse than those of many other labor camps he has described, with this one stark sentence: ‘All who survived Orotukan say they would have preferred the gas chamber.’  All who were there and survived, and spoke about it, say they would have preferred death to survival?… On the far side of the Chersky Range from Yakutsk, the Kolyma River flowed into the Arctic Ocean.  It flowed, that is, during the summer.  In the winter it was a ribbon of ice, top to bottom; for the country around the Cherksy Range is the coldest spot on earth except for the center of Antarctica… On the Kolyma, the average winter temperature is sixty degrees below zero.  Seventy-five below is common

Until November they had only shelters made of branches to live in, and were given no clothing but what they had arrived in.  Then they were given wooden barracks with walls made of single boards without insulation.  There were stoves for heating, but the laborers had to cut their own wood – at thirty and forty and fifty degrees below zero – after completing their day’s work.  These, still at Magadan, were the lucky ones.  The less fortunate were sent to begin building the road to Kolyma – in the middle of the winter… There were no barracks there, only tents and branch huts.  Patrolling dogs prevented escape.  Some of the camps on the route to the Kolyma were wiped out to the last man and dog – not only did all the slave laborers die, but also all of the guards
(https://www.mostholyfamilymonastery.com/Article_pictures/deadguyatgulag2.jpg)
man who froze to death at a Gulag labor camp
Quote
“As soon as the ice melted in the Gulf of Okhotsk more ships began arriving carrying more ‘kulaks,’ saboteurs, wreckers, and other undesirable folk from the country… When the ice melted at the end of the spring in 1934, the Dzhurma finally arrived at the mouth of the Kolyma.  Every one of the 12,000 prisoners aboard had died.  Nearly all the crew survived.  But on their return to Vladivostok, half of them had to be treated for ‘mental disorders.’  What had they seen?

Orotukan was built as a punishment camp for those laborers on the Kolyma who survived and proved particularly intractable.  Conditions at Orotukan, therefore, had to be made worse than at any of the other camps in the region.  Solzhenitsyn tells us that every hut at Orotukan was surrounded on three sides by piles of frozen corpses.  The grand total death toll at the camps on the Kolyma was approximately three million.  Every year, one-third of the prisoners in its camps died; almost none survived more than four continuous years there.  At least one man died for every kilogram of gold extracted from the Kolyma mines…” (Warren H. Carroll, The Rise and Fall of the Communist Revolution, pp. 243-245)
(https://www.mostholyfamilymonastery.com/Article_pictures/workers2.jpg)
Carroll also describes the Belomor Canal labor camps:

Quote
“The Belomor Canal labor force numbered about 300,000 at its peak, not counting the almost equally large number who died of overwork, mistreatment, undernourishment, or camp-induced disease, and were replaced as fast as they fell.  The death rate was 700 per day; but new prisoners came in to the camps in the Belomor Canal area at the rate of 1,500 per day.  Average survival time was two years… D.P. Vitkovsky, a Solovetsky prisoner himself who was a work supervisor on the canal, describes with calm and deadly precision the working conditions and their results, even for those who were not labor camp inmates:
At the end of the workday there were corpses left on the work site.  The snow powdered their faces.  One of them was hunched over beneath an overturned wheelbarrow; he had hidden his hands in his sleeves and frozen to death in that position.  Someone had frozen with his head bent down between his knees.  Two were frozen back to back leaning against each other.  They were peasant lads and the best workers one could possibly imagine.  They were sent to the canal in tens of thousands at a time, and the authorities tried to work things out so no one got to the same subcamp as his father; they tried to break up families.  And right off they gave them norms of shingle and boulders that you’d be unable to fulfill even in summer.  No one was able to teach them anything, to warn them; and in their village simplicity they gave all their strength to their work and weakened very swiftly and froze to death, embracing in pairs.  At night the sledges went out and collected them.  The drivers threw the corpses onto the sledges with a dull clonk.
And in the summer bones remained from corpses which had not been removed in time, and together with the shingle they got into the concrete mixer.” (Warren H. Carroll, The Rise and Fall of the Communist Revolution, pp. 248-249)
Besides the countless people who were sent off to the labor camps and other regions from within Russia, the Soviet Union deported massive amounts of people from other countries which it occupied, in order to pave the way for the full takeover of these States.  People from Poland, the Baltic States, etc. were deported and dumped into regions where they had to fend for themselves, or they were sent to the labor camps.  This resulted in atrocious suffering and the deaths of countless Catholics:

Quote
“Massive deportations had already begun in Soviet-occupied Poland.  In February 1940 more than 200,000 people, most families, had been moved to northern European Russia, where they were dumped in small villages or thinly populated countryside where they had to fend for themselves; in April a still larger number, about 320,000 of the wives and children whose husbands and fathers had already been executed or consigned to labor camps, were sent to the wastes of Kazakhstan where most of the children died; in June a quarter of a million more were sent to Siberia.” (Warren H. Carroll, The Rise and Fall of the Communist Revolution, p. 318)
(https://www.mostholyfamilymonastery.com/Article_pictures/stalinsmall.jpg)
Joseph Stalin, arguably the greatest mass-murderer in history, leader of Communist Russia from 1924-1953
From 1930-1934, Stalin instituted the policy of “dekulakization.”  Farmers that were opposed, or perceived as threats, to the Communist policy of collectivization of farms were dubbed “kulaks” and liquidated.  This unspeakable tragedy resulted in the deaths of 14.5 million:

Quote
“Who were these ‘kulaks’?… In May 1929 the Council of People’s Commissars formally defined a kulak as any farmer who made any money whatsoever from any source or activity other than the sale of agricultural produce grown in his own fields.  Any outside income, any processing of goods done on the farm (as by a small hand-operated mill), was sufficient to make a kulak.  When the campaign of liquidation was launched in 1930, from ten to fifteen per cent of the small farmers in every region were arbitrarily dubbed kulaks and liquidated.  If there were not enough of them fitting the May 1929 definition, others had to be added to fill up the quota.  They could be selected by income level, actual or apparent; by leadership in local villages… by opposition to forced collectivization (a particularly frequent reason for designation as a kulak); or simply by being devout ChristiansIt was the first act of a farm h0Ɩ0cαųst from 1930 to 1934 that took ten million lives by Stalin’s own estimate given to U.S. President Franklin Roosevelt at Yalta, and an estimated 14.5 million when all the victims, including those sent to the labor camps and dying there later, are taken into account.” (Warren H. Carroll, The Rise and Fall of the Communist Revolution, pp. 224-225)
Here is the harrowing account of Miron Dolot.  Dolot witnessed the deportations of these “kulaks” from his hometown to the labor camps and other regions:

Quote
A cold wind blew snow on the unfortunates, who were not properly dressed, for they had not been allowed to take warm clothing with them.  We wanted to help somehow, and since we could assume that they would be banished to Siberia, we had to get them some heavy clothing… Under careful supervision of soldiers, a score of sleighs moved into the square.  They were to take the arrested farmers out of the village.  Loading of six to eight persons to a sleigh started immediately, controlled through the use of a list… husbands were separated from their wives, and children from their parents… As one sleigh moved to join a column, a young man sprang from it and raced toward another sleigh in which his helpless and weeping wife and children were riding.  The father obviously wanted to be with his family, but he did not reach them.  Comrade Pashchenko, the chairman of the village soviet who was supervising the whole action, raised his revolver and calmly fired.  The young father dropped dead into the snow, and the sleigh carrying his widow and orphans moved on.” (Warren H. Carroll, The Rise and Fall of the Communist Revolution, pp. 227-228)
“There are reports of ‘kulaks’ on trains to Kazakhstan or Siberia, locked in cars each carrying fifty of them, with a loaf of bread and a pail of tea or thin soup per day per ten people (on days when it was delivered), crawling with vermin, unheated in winter, suffocatingly hot in summer, throwing their dying babies out the windows to put an end to their suffering.” (Warren H. Carroll, The Rise and Fall of the Communist Revolution, p. 228)
In 1933, in order to starve millions in the Ukraine, Stalin imposed ridiculous grain quotas on the collective farms.  The grain quotas imposed by Moscow were impossible to meet.  But in an attempt to comply with Moscow’s demands, all the available grain in the Ukraine was shipped off.  The result was that millions were left without food, to starve and to die.  To cover for his crime, Stalin falsely accused the Ukrainians of hoarding grain.
(https://www.mostholyfamilymonastery.com/Article_pictures/ukr_children_small.jpg)
Children in the largely Catholic Ukraine, left to starve and to die in the famine

Quote
The cold hard essence of the situation was this:  the Ukrainian farmers were going to die; and the Communist operatives feared death, or purging, or the labor camps if they did not let them die.  They knew there was no grain.  Everybody knew it.  But no one dared say it… Meanwhile the people were eating rats, mice, sparrows, snails, ants, and earthworms, leather and shoe soles, old skins and furs, ground-up bones, acacia bark and nettles.  By March, in many areas, even most of these things were gone, and there was nothing at all left to eat.  A ghastly silence fell over the countryside; there were no animals to make any sound, and the people still alive rarely spoke.  Victor Kravchenko, then a Party activist sent to Ukraine, who later repudiated communism and escaped to freedom, recalled what he had seen:

Here I saw people dying in solitude by slow degrees, dying hideously, without the excuse of sacrifice for a cause.  They had been trapped and left to starve, each in his own home, by a political decision made in a far-off capital around conference and banquet tables.  There was not even the consolation of inevitability to relieve the horror.  The most terrifying sights were the little children with skeleton limbs dangling from balloon-like abdomens.  Starvation had wiped every trace of youth from their faces, turning them into tortured gargoyles; only in their eyes still lingered the reminder of childhood.  Everywhere we found men and women lying prone, their faces and bellies bloated, their eyes utterly expressionless… Some five million Ukrainians died in this genocidal, deliberate famine.” (Warren H. Carroll, The Rise and Fall of the Communist Revolution, pp. 240-241)
At this point we can clearly see why, on July 13, 1917, Our Lady mentioned persecutions of “war, of hunger, and of persecution of the Church and of the Holy Father.  To prevent this I come to ask the consecration of Russia

These facts should show us clearly the context in which Our Lady requested the consecration of Russia, and how the conversion of Russia means a conversion of this regime to peace from its persecutions of war, of hunger, of the Church, etc.

HE WILL DO THE CONSECRATION, BUT IT WILL BE “LATE” – FITS POPE PIUS XII
It is certain that Pope Pius XI failed to consecrate Russia to Our Lady’s Immaculate Heart.  Pope Pius XII also failed to do so for many years, but (as we saw) he finally did consecrate Russia in 1952.

Quote
Our Lord to Sister Lucy, Summer, 1931: “Like the King of France they will repent and do it, but it will be late.  Russia will have already spread its errors throughout the world provoking wars and persecutions against the Church: the Holy Father will have much to suffer.” (quoted in The Whole Truth About Fatima, Vol. 2, pp. 543-544)

Pope Pius XII, Sacro Vergente Anno (Apostolic Letter), July 7, 1952: “…just as a few years ago We consecrated the entire human race to the Immaculate Heart of the Virgin Mary, Mother of God, so today We consecrate and in a most special manner We entrust all the peoples of Russia to this Immaculate Heart…”
It’s clear that, as most commentators agree, Our Lord’s words “They” will repent and do it apply to the line of Popes – just as Popes in encyclicals refer to themselves as “We.” (“They” cannot refer to the Pope and all the Bishops, because all the Bishops did not delay the request and therefore do not need to repent of delaying it.)

That Pope Pius XII was the one who did it, but “late,” makes perfect sense.
First, Pope Pius XII consecrated the world to the Immaculate Heart of Mary in 1942.  Ten years later, however, he “repented and did it” by specifically consecrating Russia.

Second, in 1939 Russia was still the only Communist nation on earth, but in the next decade the Soviet Union overtook Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania (1940), Bulgaria (1944), Poland (1945), Romania (1945) and Hungary (1946).  Perhaps these developments – in addition to a specific request – caused Pius XII to “repent and do it.”  Thus, Our Lord’s words that “Russia will have already spread its errors throughout the world provoking wars and persecutions against the Church” fit precisely with Pius XII; for what heaven had intended to prevent by the consecration of Russia – the spread of Communism, and the Soviet Union’s annihilation of nations and martyrdom of the good – had, to a large extent, already occurred when he did it.
Third, there may be another signal that Pope Pius XII (though he certainly did it late) would be the one who would actually consecrate Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary.  This signal comes in the amazing coincidence that Pope Pius XII was consecrated a bishop the very day (and, according to Frere Michel, the very same hour) that Our Lady first appeared at Fatima.

Quote
William Thomas Walsh, Our Lady of Fatima, 1954, p. 52 (note 1): “It is an interesting coincidence that Monsignor Eugenio Pacelli [Pius XII] was being consecrated Bishop at the Sistine Chapel in Rome on May 13, 1917, the very day when the children [first] saw the Lady of Fatima.”
Fourth, a careful consideration of Our Lady’s words reveals that the actual fulfillment of the consecration of Russia would not be in perfect conformity with heaven’s original requests, which coincides with the fact that Pius XII did it, but “late” and not with all the bishops.
OUR LADY’S WORDS REVEAL TO US THAT HER TRIUMPH IS NOT A UNIVERSAL TRIUMPH OR REIGN OF PEACE, BUT ONLY A “CERTAIN” PERIOD OF PEACE
If they listen to my requests, Russia will be converted and there will be peace.”In the end my Immaculate Heart will triumph.  The Holy Father will consecrate Russia to me, and it will be converted and a certain period of peace will be granted to the world.”

Please notice this extremely important point!  In the Secret of July 13, Our Lady first expresses a conditional promise.  “If they listen to my requests, Russia will be converted and there will be peace.”  If her requests are fulfilled precisely, she says that there will be “peace.”  But when speaking of what will actually happen “In the end,” she adds
Title: Re: Father Cekada Dying
Post by: forlorn on September 13, 2020, 08:07:15 PM
DR, You forgot discernment.

Sede's are fueled by their intellectual pride.  


But read closely the article I referenced and let me know if it's Catholic... in your estimation.  Dimonds Fatima Consecration (https://www.mostholyfamilymonastery.com/catholicchurch/consecration-russia-fatima-lucy/)

Like I said, it's a most intriguing argument, but the Dimonds couldn't have written it.  

Their "Consecration is done already" theory came from a rabbinic think tank.


Finally, from your sede perspective, help us understand the Dimond's orders and how they became "holy religious"?  :jester:
Why couldn't they have written it, exactly? 
Title: Re: Father Cekada Dying
Post by: Seraphina on September 13, 2020, 08:27:54 PM
RIP, Fr. Cekada.  

Most of this thread should be moved elsewhere!  Discussion of the Dimonds, idea that Pius XII consecrated Russia in 1952.

I’m no Fatima scholar, but I have thought that “many nations will be annihilated” could refer to all the nations that vanished as a result and in the wake of WWII.  I also agree that Sr. Lucy almost certainly did not live to 2005. Age and a new set of dentures cannot entirely change the shape and bone structure of a person’s head and face!  
Title: Re: Father Cekada Dying
Post by: Incredulous on September 13, 2020, 09:55:13 PM
Why couldn't they have written it, exactly?

If you read the article, it’s an intricate, well built lie.  

First, they
change the definition or meanings of common words, such as “conversion”.

Once you take the bait, they can change the whole context of the Fatima apparition and the premise of the Mother of God’s warning and requests.

The conclusion of the article is that Trads shouldn’t concern themselves with Our Lady’s pleas.
Fatima is a done deal already.

I submit that the Dimonds don’t have the intellectual firepower to concoct a fairytale of that magnitude.

And the tale it is so typical of the Jєωιѕн methodology to create heresies.   

Some examples are Islam and even Hinduism.  Yes, that theological premise is found in the Kabbalah.

St. Pope Pius V warned that the jew are the seed bag of all heresies.


That Consecration of Russia lie was artfully developed by a team of rabbinic propagandists.

I
Title: Re: Father Cekada Dying
Post by: LeDeg on September 13, 2020, 10:01:22 PM
If you read the article, it’s an intricate, well built lie.  
First, they
change the definition or meanings of common words, such as “conversion”.

I don't want to further derail this thread, but Incred, do you think they use this methodology in their BOD/BOB/EENS argumentation? Or anywhere else?
Title: Re: Father Cekada Dying
Post by: DecemRationis on September 14, 2020, 08:04:11 AM
DR, You forgot discernment.

Sede's are fueled by their intellectual pride.  


But read closely the article I referenced and let me know if it's Catholic... in your estimation.  Dimonds Fatima Consecration (https://www.mostholyfamilymonastery.com/catholicchurch/consecration-russia-fatima-lucy/)

Like I said, it's a most intriguing argument, but the Dimonds couldn't have written it.  

Their "Consecration is done already" theory came from a rabbinic think tank.


Finally, from your sede perspective, help us understand the Dimond's orders and how they became "holy religious"?  :jester:




The Whole Truth about the Consecration and Conversion of Russia and the Impostor Sr. Lucy (https://www.mostholyfamilymonastery.com/catholicchurch/consecration-russia-fatima-lucy/)

By Bro. Peter Dimond, O.S.B.
-The question is: Can you handle the truth on this issue?
-The truth that you won’t hear from “Fr.” Gruner; the stunning facts on an issue that we’ve all been brainwashed only to consider from one angle
-An article that every traditional Catholic needs to read

The Third Secret of Fatima (3rd Edition) (https://www.mostholyfamilymonastery.com/truthreport/2-hour-30-minute-video-the-third-secret-of-fatima-3rd-edition-some-minor-changes-made-to-this-version/) – (2 hours 30 minutes)
Proverbs 16:7- “When the ways of man shall please the Lord, He will convert even his enemies to peace.”Our Lady: “If they listen to my requests, Russia will be converted and there will be peace.”

Proverbs 16:7- “When the ways of man shall please the Lord, He will convert even his enemies to peace.”
“…cuм placuerint Domino viae hominis inimicos quoque eius convertet ad pacem.”
* If you have the capability, you will want to print this article in color, since there are color pictures.
* Emphasis in this article (bolding, underlining and italicization) is not necessarily that of the quoted author and is usually my own.

IN THIS ARTICLE:

-FACT #1: POPE PIUS XII CONSECRATED RUSSIA TO THE IMMACULATE HEART OF MARY – POPE PIUS XII CONSECRATED NOT THE WORLD, BUT SPECIFICALLY RUSSIA, ON JULY 7, 1952

-FACT #2: WHAT OUR LADY MEANS BY THE CONVERSION OF RUSSIA – THE STRIKING EVIDENCE
-THIS POSITION IS FURTHER SUBSTANTIATED BY CONSIDERING PORTUGAL – “THE SHOWCASE OF OUR LADY”
-THIS POSITION IS FURTHER SUBSTANTIATED BY SR. LUCY’S SUMMARY OF THE TUY VISION
-“THE GOOD WILL BE MARTYRED” AND “VARIOUS NATIONS WILL BE ANNIHILATED” ARE PROPHECIES THAT HAVE ALREADY BEEN FULFILLED
-WHAT RUSSIA WAS CONVERTED FROM – SNAPSHOTS OF THE SATANIC REGIME IN COMMUNIST RUSSIA
-HE WILL DO THE CONSECRATION, BUT IT WILL BE “LATE”
-OUR LADY’S WORDS REVEAL TO US THAT HER TRIUMPH IS NOT A UNIVERSAL TRIUMPH OR REIGN OF PEACE, BUT ONLY A “CERTAIN” PERIOD OF PEACE
-THE CONVERSION OF RUSSIA =…
-THE EVIDENCE
-SOME LEFTOVER OBJECTIONS – AND SR. LUCY DIDN’T EVEN KNOW IF PIUS XII’S 1942 CONSECRATION OF THE WORLD WAS ACCEPTED IN HEAVEN
-PART II: THE EVIDENCE EXPOSING THE IMPOSTOR SR. LUCY
-THE FALSE MESSAGE OF “FR.” NICHOLAS GRUNER
One of the most frequent questions that we receive concerns Our Lady’s statement at Fatima on July 13, 1917:

The Vatican II “Popes” must be true Popes, so the objection goes, because one of them will finally consecrate Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary and the entire nation will be converted to the Catholic Faith.  That hasn’t happened, so you cannot be right that they are Antipopes.
First, in examining this issue it is important for people to clear their minds of any preconceived notions or prejudices in this area.  They must be prepared to take a fresh new look at the facts.  Let’s jump right into this very important issue:

FACT #1: POPE PIUS XII CONSECRATED RUSSIA TO THE IMMACULATE HEART OF MARY – POPE PIUS XII CONSECRATED NOT THE WORLD, BUT SPECIFICALLY RUSSIA, ON JULY 7, 1952

Many know that Pope Pius XII consecrated the world to the Immaculate Heart of Mary in 1942.  Many do not know that Pope Pius XII specifically consecrated Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary in 1952.

I didn’t know this until I began studying this issue in some depth.  But this important fact is revealed even in the books promoted by “Fr.” Nicholas Gruner’s apostolate.
This fact can also be found in the book Fatima in Twilight:
Here are the words of Pope Pius XII:
Thus, it is an undeniable fact that Pope Pius XII specifically consecrated Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary.
But didn’t Our Lady promise that Russia would be consecrated in union with all the bishops of the world?  No!  This is a key point.  Our Lady requested that Russia be consecrated in union with all the bishops of the world, but on July 13 she only promised that “In the end my Immaculate Heart will triumph.  The Holy Father will consecrate Russia to me, and it will be converted and a certain period of peace will be granted to the world.”  Notice that Our Lady didn’t promise: “The Holy Father and all the bishops will consecrate Russia to me…”  Further, heaven revealed that the actual fulfillment of the consecration of Russia would not be fully in accord with heaven’s original wishes; for instance, it would be “late” (more on this in a bit).


FACT #2: OUR LADY NEVER SAID THAT THE CONVERSION OF RUSSIA MEANS THAT RUSSIA WOULD BE CONVERTED TO THE CATHOLIC FAITH

The question that we must re-examine is: did Our Lady ever say that Russia would be converted to “the Catholic Faith”?  Is there any evidence that Our Lady ever said that Russia would be converted to the Catholic Faith?  The answer, which will probably surprise many, is no.  I have just completed a careful study of Frere Michel’s 3-volume work The Whole Truth About Fatima (more than 2000 pages on the issue).  I was looking for some evidence, any evidence, that Our Lady ever said that the “conversion” of Russia means that the nation of Russia will be converted to the Catholic Faith.  In the entire 3-volume set, there is no evidence whatsoever that Our Lord or Our Lady ever promised that Russia would be converted to the Catholic Faith.  [Please note: I’m not examining the question of whether heaven would want the conversion of Russia to the Catholic Faith, which of course it would, since outside the Catholic Church there is no salvation.  Rather, I’m addressing the question of whether heaven ever said or promised that the nation of Russia would be converted to the Catholic Faith.  There is no evidence that heaven ever promised that Russia would be converted to the Catholic Faith.]

But of course it means that the entire country will be converted to the Catholic Faith,” as one person told us, “for it couldn’t mean anything else!”  This person even said that it is absurd to think that Our Lady would ever use the word “conversion” to mean anything but a conversion to the true Faith.  Oh really?  Well, this person may be surprised to learn that in Proverbs 16:7 we find a reference to “conversion” that does not mean conversion to the true faith, but the conversion of a persecuting enemy to peace (i.e. to a cessation of his persecuting ways).

Proverbs 16:7- “When the ways of man shall please the Lord, He will convert even his enemies to peace.”
In fact, notice the similarity between Our Lady’s words of July 13 and Proverbs 16:7: in the context of both, conversion is immediately linked with peace, after a man fulfills the request of the Lord.  

Proverbs 16:7- “When the ways of man shall please the Lord, He will convert even his enemies to peace.”Our Lady: “If they listen to my requests, Russia will be converted and there will be peace.”

After studying this issue in depth, and taking a fresh new look at the facts, I am of the firm opinion that Our Lady’s words correspond to what we read here in Proverbs 16:7: the “conversion” of Russia does not mean the conversion of the nation to the Catholic faith, but rather the conversion of a persecuting enemy (Russia) to a certain period of peace.  We will see exactly what this means as we proceed, and that the evidence from the message of Fatima supports this conclusion.

THIS POSITION IS FURTHER SUBSTANTIATED BY CONSIDERING PORTUGAL – “THE SHOWCASE OF OUR LADY”

To attempt to substantiate their position that Russia has not been consecrated, “Fr.” Gruner and his supporters often bring up the case of Portugal as the “Showcase of Our Lady.”  They point out that when the Portuguese Bishops consecrated their nation to the Immaculate Heart of Mary on May 13, 1931, the result was an incredible Catholic renaissance and social reform.  They say that Our Lady used Portugal as a “showcase” of what she would do for Russia and the rest of the world.
However, in bringing up the example of Portugal, they provide more evidence that Our Lady’s promise of the “conversion” of Russia did not mean the conversion of the entire nation to the Catholic Faith.  For they fail to note that even after the bishops consecrated the nation of Portugal (a nation that was already almost entirely Catholic in population) the country did not become a Catholic country!If Portugal itself (a nation that was already almost entirely Catholic) wasn’t even changed into a Catholic country after its consecration, this is further evidence that the conversion of Russia does not mean a conversion of the nation to the Catholic faith.  The 1959 Portuguese Constitution doesn’t even mention the name of God.  (WTAF, Vol. 3, p. 741)
THIS POSITION IS FURTHER SUBSTANTIATED BY SR. LUCY’S SUMMARY OF THE TUY VISION
In order to attempt to substantiate their position that Russia will be converted to the Catholic faith, many cite the vision of Tuy, in which Our Lady promised to “save” Russia:What is HUGELY SIGNIFICANT is that Frere Michel admits that Sr. Lucy summarized this communication at Tuy in a slightly different manner in two letters to Fr. Goncalves:So, according to Sr. Lucy, the message at Tuy that Our Lord will “save” Russia means that the Lord promises to “end the persecution in Russia,” thus corroborating the point that there is no evidence that heaven ever promised that Russia would be converted to the Catholic faith.  We find the same thing in another vision that Our Lord granted to Sr. Lucy in 1940:
The consecration of Russia will “obtain an abbreviation” of the tribulation that is caused by the persecutions of Russia, perfectly coinciding with our point about what Our Lady meant by the “conversion” of Russia.  Most importantly, however, we can see what Our Lady meant in context by the conversion of Russia in a careful consideration of her words on July 13.
Notice, the consecration of Russia was specifically requested to prevent “war… hunger and persecution of the Church…”  This shows us that Our Lady’s words on the consecration of Russia were firmly set within this context – i.e. converting this enemy to peace from these persecutions of “war… hunger… of the Church.”

This point is corroborated when one considers the “great sign” mentioned by Our Lady in the context of her request for the consecration of Russia.  Our Lady says: “When you shall see a night illuminated by an unknown light, know that it is a great sign that God gives you that He is going to punish the world for its crimes by means of war, of hunger, and of persecution of the Church and of the Holy Father.  To prevent this…”  This “sign” was not some “small sign,” but the “great sign” that heaven gave in the context of the consecration of Russia and the punishments the consecration of Russia would prevent.
Well, everyone knows that this “great sign” was the unknown light that lit up the sky on Jan. 25, 1938, just prior to the events that precipitated World War II.
I think that most people can agree that this sign doesn’t seem that significant to us from our vantage point today.  Yet, within the context of the consecration of Russia, and the “war… hunger… and persecution of the Church…” which it was requested to prevent, this was the “great sign” that heaven gave.  This shows us again how firmly within this specific context Our Lady’s words for the consecration of Russia were – converting this enemy to peace from its persecutions of war, persecutions of the Church, etc.
“THE GOOD WILL BE MARTYRED” AND “VARIOUS NATIONS WILL BE ANNIHILATED” ARE PROPHECIES THAT HAVE ALREADY BEEN FULFILLED
In order to further understand what Our Lady meant by the “conversion” of Russia, it is important for us to understand what she meant by things she mentioned in the same context; for instance, “various nations will be annihilatedand “the good will be martyred.”  
Many believe that Our Lady’s words “various nations will be annihilated” and “the good will be martyred” (as a result of the spread of Russia’s errors) still have not been fulfilled.  However, the truth is that both of these things have already been fulfilled.

VARIOUS NATIONS WERE ANNIHILATED
As we will see, even Frere Michel, an author whose work is promoted by Nicholas Gruner’s apostolate, admits that the Soviet Union’s takeover of the Baltic nations and other small States during the period of World War II, which it simply annexed to itself making them exist no longer, constituted the annihilation of nations of which Our Lady spoke.

Besides the nations of Poland, Hungary, Czechoslovakia, Romania, Bulgaria, etc. which entered the orbit of the Soviet Empire, and were reduced to puppets of its machine, the Baltic nations, Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia, were actually erased from the map – completely annihilated by full absorption into the Soviet Empire.
An article carried on the website of the Joint Baltic American National Committee notes that:
Notice, the absorption of the Baltic nations by the Soviet Union “annihilated” the political independence and territorial integrity of these nations (i.e., annihilated their nationhood itself)!  Another article on the website of the Joint Baltic American Committee notes that “…communism will be remembered not so much for what it left behind as for what it didn’t.  The decades of totalitarian rule annihilated cultures…” (http://store.yahoo.com/jbanc2000/newsun.html)
Our Lady’s words about the annihilation of nations clearly refer to the Soviet Union’s takeover of the Baltic nations, which literally erased them from the map by absorption.  But there are some who believe that Our Lady’s words refer to nuclear catastrophe that will happen in the future.  To attempt to prove this point, they will quote Sr. Lucy’s words to Fr. Fuentes.

Sister Lucy to Fr. Fuentes, 1957: “Tell them, Father, that many times the Most Holy Virgin told my cousins Francisco and Jacinta, as well as myself, that many nations will disappear from the face of the earth.  She said that Russia will be the instrument of chastisement chosen by Heaven to punish the whole world if we do not beforehand obtain the conversion of that poor nation.”

Sr. Lucy is obviously reiterating Our Lady’s words about the annihilation of nations.  However, if a nation were devastated by nuclear catastrophe, it wouldn’t disappear.  It would still be visible, but as an empty and devastated wasteland.  The only way to make a nation literally “disappear” is by erasing it from the map by incorporation into another country, as happened with the Soviet Union’s takeover of the Baltic nations.  In stunning confirmation of this point, here is what the Soviet Foreign Minister, Molotov, said to the Lithuanian Foreign Minister (concerning the Soviet Union’s imminent takeover of the Baltic nations):
(https://www.mostholyfamilymonastery.com/Article_pictures/Europe_before_WWII.jpg)
This map (above) of Eastern Europe before World War II defines the Baltic nations (Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania) before they were annihilated and made to disappear by full absorption into the satanic Soviet Empire

(https://www.mostholyfamilymonastery.com/Article_pictures/communistbloc.jpg)
This map of Eastern Europe and the Communist Bloc after WWII defines the disappearance and annihilation of the Baltic nations by full absorption into the Soviet Empire

The annihilation of nations, the making of nations “disappear,” clearly refers to the Soviet Union and its takeover of the Baltic States.  Frere Michel even applies the “annihilation of nations” to the other nations that the Soviet Union incorporated into its orbit as satellites, such as Poland, etc.  However, it most specifically refers to the erasing of the Baltic nations, as well as other small provinces such as North Bukovina and Bessarabia.  And this surely would have happened to “many” other nations if Russia had not been consecrated.
In every Communist nation controlled by the Soviet Union, the press, the radio and education were totally controlled by the State.  This became the sad and gloomy reality in country after country that fell to Communism.  All of these satellites also vigorously persecuted the Church.  For instance:
And this led to the “good being martyred,” which has also been fulfilled:

THE GOOD WERE MARTYRED
It is simply a fact that countless Catholics were martyred at the hands of the Soviet Union and its Communist satellites.  Since this is well known, I will not give many quotes to prove the point.  But it is significant to note again that even Frere Michel, whose work on Fatima is promoted by “Fr.” Nicholas Gruner, admits that the “good will be martyred” has already occurred.
A prime example comes from Russia in 1923.  At that time, Moscow attempted to blackmail the Vatican into granting its regime diplomatic recognition.  Moscow gave orders for the arrest of high-placed cleric Msgr. Cieplak (apostolic administrator of the diocese of Mohilev), his vicar general, Msgr. Budkiewicz, and thirteen other priests.  These clerics declared that they would not observe the 1922 law of the Soviet Union forbidding teaching the Catholic Faith to children (Warren H. Carroll, The Rise and Fall of the Communist Revolution, p. 310).  Moscow agreed to their release if the Vatican agreed to diplomatic relations with its regime.  The Russian regime knew that once the Vatican established diplomatic relations with it, the rest of Europe would follow.   But the Vatican could not grant it such recognition, so Moscow executed the sentence:
(As an aside, this priest could have been spared the horrors of the labor camps if he had simply consented to becoming an Eastern Schismatic.  He refused, and suffered horribly.  This shows us again the evil of false ecuмenism.  Post-Vatican II ecuмenism, which accepts and praises Eastern Orthodoxy, holds that his martyrdom was pointless.)
(https://www.mostholyfamilymonastery.com/Article_pictures/lithuanoccupied.jpg)
Dead bodies of Lithuanians after the Soviet Union eliminated those it deemed threats to full takeover
In 1936, the errors of Russian communism stirred up a revolution and the Spanish cινιℓ ωαr.  What resulted was arguably the worst persecution of the Catholic Church in history:
Hugh Thomas, considered the premier historian of the Spanish cινιℓ ωαr, gives us some details on these martyrdoms:That the Spanish persecution was fueled and stirred up by the errors of Russia is beyond question; even some of the “attackers carried red banners with the hammer and sickle.” (Carroll, p. 288)

One could multiply examples of the good being martyred for pages.  For instance, after the Soviet Union’s forced “reunification” of the schismatic “Church” with the Greek Catholic Church in 1945, there were countless Ukrainian Catholics who were martyred for their Faith:
It is a fact that doesn’t need to be proven any further: the good were martyred in the Soviet Union, in its Communist satellites, and in other countries, such as Spain, where the errors of Russia stirred up bloody persecution.  Our Lady’s words that the good will be martyred, and various nations will be annihilated, have already been fulfilled.
Some also ask: what about the persecution of the Holy Father, who will “have much to suffer”?  What is the meaning of this?  We find the answer in the aforementioned message of Our Lord to Sr. Lucy from 1940:
The persecution of the Church during this period – the torture and martyrdom of priests and faithful, the suppression of ecclesiastical activity – weighed as an incredible burden and torment on the Pope who felt responsible, yet helpless, in the face of this tragedy.  With these facts in mind, we can see that all four aspects of Our Lady’s message, the spread of Russia’s errors, the martyrdom of the good, the annihilation of nations and the suffering of the Holy Father, had their application to this period.

What people fail to realize is that Our Lady’s request for the consecration of Russia was given in this very same context.  The consecration and conversion of Russia was intended to prevent the punishments and torments and persecutions of Russia mentioned in this context.  In line with Proverbs 16:7, and Sr. Lucy’s summary of the Tuy vision, it means converting this enemy to peace from its ways of persecution.

That is why Our Lady came to Tuy in 1929 to ask for the consecration of Russia.  In fact, Sr. Lucy didn’t mention a word about Russia until 1929.  1929 was a time when the horrors of Stalin’s Gulag started to become known in the world.  It was a time when the persecutions of Russia were about to reach their apex. 1929 was just prior to Stalin’s policy of “dekulakization,” a policy imposed from 1930-1934, which resulted in the death of millions of peasant farmers.  1929 was also just prior to Stalin’s unspeakable imposed famine of 1933, which resulted in the deaths of millions.  It makes sense that Our Lady would come back to ask for the consecration of Russia in order to prevent these horrible persecutions when they were at, or were about to reach, their most gruesome point.  The most serious demographers count at least fifteen million victims at the hands of Bolshevik Russia from the years 1929-1933 (WTAF, Vol. 2, p. 457).

At this point, it is very important for us to look at what those errors of Russia had become.  We need to get a closer look at the satanic regime of Communist Russia to get a better grasp on the context of the message of Our Lady.

WHAT RUSSIA WAS CONVERTED FROM – SNAPSHOTS OF THE SATANIC REGIME IN COMMUNIST RUSSIA
(https://www.mostholyfamilymonastery.com/Article_pictures/leninsmall.jpg)
Vladimir Lenin, maker of the Communist revolution, mass-murderer, and leader of Communist Russia from 1917-1924
In 1917, Lenin closed all Catholic churches in Petrograd (Warren H. Carroll, The Rise and Fall of the Communist Revolution, p. 169)
In 1918, Lenin shut down all newspapers in Moscow except those published by the Communists.  This was soon extended to all printed material, including periodicals, etc. (Warren H. Carroll, The Rise and Fall of the Communist Revolution, p. 116)
A decree of February 26, 1922 confiscated all the treasures of the Church, including consecrated objects.  At the same time, and this was still the very early stage of the Bolshevik horrors, Cardinal Mercier published the first figures of the persecution: “Statistics for the victims of the persecution are frightening.  Since November 1917, 260,000 simple soldier prisoners and 54,000 officers; 18,000 landed proprietors; 35,000 ‘intellectuals’; 192,000 workers; 815,000 peasants; 28 bishops and 1,215 priests were put to death.” (WTAF, Vol. 2, p. 451)

Things were so bad in Russia in 1922, that Pope Pius XI published the apostolic letter Annus Fere, ordering a general collection in favor of the starving Russian people.  In it, he spoke of the horrors suffered by the Russian people.  Though he didn’t denounce the satanic Communist regime in Russia by name, Pius XI spoke of “the extreme misery of the Russian people, who were decimated by disease and famine, victims of the greatest calamity in history…” (WTAF, Vol. 2, p. 565)

Shortly after taking over Russia, in 1919 Lenin established the Gulag.  The Gulag was a network of cσncєnтrαтισn cαмρs to which all “enemies” of the State could be sent.
It’s important for us to get a glimpse of the horrors of the Gulag.  For this purpose, I will quote from Warren H. Carroll who, in turn, draws from Alexander Solzhenitsyn’s famed work, The Gulag Archipelago.
(https://www.mostholyfamilymonastery.com/Article_pictures/solzhenitsyn_big.jpg)
Alexander Solzhenitsyn as Gulag labor camp prisoner scs 262
Carroll then proceeds to describe the labor camp at Orotukan:
(https://www.mostholyfamilymonastery.com/Article_pictures/deadguyatgulag2.jpg)
man who froze to death at a Gulag labor camp
(https://www.mostholyfamilymonastery.com/Article_pictures/workers2.jpg)
Carroll also describes the Belomor Canal labor camps:
Besides the countless people who were sent off to the labor camps and other regions from within Russia, the Soviet Union deported massive amounts of people from other countries which it occupied, in order to pave the way for the full takeover of these States.  People from Poland, the Baltic States, etc. were deported and dumped into regions where they had to fend for themselves, or they were sent to the labor camps.  This resulted in atrocious suffering and the deaths of countless Catholics:
(https://www.mostholyfamilymonastery.com/Article_pictures/stalinsmall.jpg)
Joseph Stalin, arguably the greatest mass-murderer in history, leader of Communist Russia from 1924-1953
From 1930-1934, Stalin instituted the policy of “dekulakization.”  Farmers that were opposed, or perceived as threats, to the Communist policy of collectivization of farms were dubbed “kulaks” and liquidated.  This unspeakable tragedy resulted in the deaths of 14.5 million:
Here is the harrowing account of Miron Dolot.  Dolot witnessed the deportations of these “kulaks” from his hometown to the labor camps and other regions:
In 1933, in order to starve millions in the Ukraine, Stalin imposed ridiculous grain quotas on the collective farms.  The grain quotas imposed by Moscow were impossible to meet.  But in an attempt to comply with Moscow’s demands, all the available grain in the Ukraine was shipped off.  The result was that millions were left without food, to starve and to die.  To cover for his crime, Stalin falsely accused the Ukrainians of hoarding grain.
(https://www.mostholyfamilymonastery.com/Article_pictures/ukr_children_small.jpg)
Children in the largely Catholic Ukraine, left to starve and to die in the famine
At this point we can clearly see why, on July 13, 1917, Our Lady mentioned persecutions of “war, of hunger, and of persecution of the Church and of the Holy Father.  To prevent this I come to ask the consecration of Russia

These facts should show us clearly the context in which Our Lady requested the consecration of Russia, and how the conversion of Russia means a conversion of this regime to peace from its persecutions of war, of hunger, of the Church, etc.

HE WILL DO THE CONSECRATION, BUT IT WILL BE “LATE” – FITS POPE PIUS XII
It is certain that Pope Pius XI failed to consecrate Russia to Our Lady’s Immaculate Heart.  Pope Pius XII also failed to do so for many years, but (as we saw) he finally did consecrate Russia in 1952.
It’s clear that, as most commentators agree, Our Lord’s words “They” will repent and do it apply to the line of Popes – just as Popes in encyclicals refer to themselves as “We.” (“They” cannot refer to the Pope and all the Bishops, because all the Bishops did not delay the request and therefore do not need to repent of delaying it.)

That Pope Pius XII was the one who did it, but “late,” makes perfect sense.
First, Pope Pius XII consecrated the world to the Immaculate Heart of Mary in 1942.  Ten years later, however, he “repented and did it” by specifically consecrating Russia.

Second, in 1939 Russia was still the only Communist nation on earth, but in the next decade the Soviet Union overtook Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania (1940), Bulgaria (1944), Poland (1945), Romania (1945) and Hungary (1946).  Perhaps these developments – in addition to a specific request – caused Pius XII to “repent and do it.”  Thus, Our Lord’s words that “Russia will have already spread its errors throughout the world provoking wars and persecutions against the Church” fit precisely with Pius XII; for what heaven had intended to prevent by the consecration of Russia – the spread of Communism, and the Soviet Union’s annihilation of nations and martyrdom of the good – had, to a large extent, already occurred when he did it.
Third, there may be another signal that Pope Pius XII (though he certainly did it late) would be the one who would actually consecrate Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary.  This signal comes in the amazing coincidence that Pope Pius XII was consecrated a bishop the very day (and, according to Frere Michel, the very same hour) that Our Lady first appeared at Fatima.
Fourth, a careful consideration of Our Lady’s words reveals that the actual fulfillment of the consecration of Russia would not be in perfect conformity with heaven’s original requests, which coincides with the fact that Pius XII did it, but “late” and not with all the bishops.
OUR LADY’S WORDS REVEAL TO US THAT HER TRIUMPH IS NOT A UNIVERSAL TRIUMPH OR REIGN OF PEACE, BUT ONLY A “CERTAIN” PERIOD OF PEACE
If they listen to my requests, Russia will be converted and there will be peace.”In the end my Immaculate Heart will triumph.  The Holy Father will consecrate Russia to me, and it will be converted and a certain period of peace will be granted to the world.”

Please notice this extremely important point!  In the Secret of July 13, Our Lady first expresses a conditional promise.  “If they listen to my requests, Russia will be converted and there will be peace.”  If her requests are fulfilled precisely, she says that there will be “peace.”  But when speaking of what will actually happen “In the end,” she adds

Incredulous,


Quote
But read closely the article I referenced and let me know if it's Catholic... in your estimation.  Dimonds Fatima Consecration (https://www.mostholyfamilymonastery.com/catholicchurch/consecration-russia-fatima-lucy/)
(https://www.mostholyfamilymonastery.com/catholicchurch/consecration-russia-fatima-lucy/)
Ok. But why should I in this context (whether the Dimonds are Jews). Let's grant it's not Catholic for sake of argument. The overwhelming majority in the class "non-Catholic" are also "non-Jєωιѕн." You do the math to figure out the consequence of that.


Quote
Their "Consecration is done already" theory came from a rabbinic think tank.

Let's grant this one also -  for sake of argument!!!! Many who espouse ideas that "came from a rabbinic think tank" are non-Jews. Indeed, the ability of Jews to deceive non-Jews with arguments from rabbinic think thanks is the real problem . . . or the small number of Jews (or rabbinic think tanks) would not be problem.

Quote
Finally, from your sede perspective, help us understand the Dimond's orders and how they became "holy religious"?  (https://www.cathinfo.com/Smileys/classic/jester.gif)

I fail to see the relevance of that, unless somewhere in consideration of this issue is more "evidence" that the Dimonds are Jєωιѕн.

I hope for your sake the answer to that is "no."



Title: Re: Father Cekada Dying
Post by: Pax Vobis on September 14, 2020, 08:18:19 AM

Quote
I don't want to further derail this thread, but Incred, do you think they use this methodology in their BOD/BOB/EENS argumentation? Or anywhere else?

They did a whole dvd on how JPII was the anti-christ.  Now that he's been dead over 10 years, they've yet to say, "well, we got that wrong". 
.
I don't know if they are jews or not (one certainly cannot make such a claim based on name alone), but I do think some things they get right (BOD/EENS), as their research is mostly backed up by Church quotes.  But other things they get totally wrong (usually when talking about the future).  One thing's for certain - they are very divisive and hateful, which is not a fruit of the Holy Ghost.
Title: Re: Father Cekada Dying
Post by: Quo vadis Domine on September 14, 2020, 08:42:00 AM
They did a whole dvd on how JPII was the anti-christ.  Now that he's been dead over 10 years, they've yet to say, "well, we got that wrong".  

I’ve used that argument against them for years (actually, JPII died in 2005, so 15 years ago). They never admit when they are wrong which is a huge sign of pride.
Title: Re: Father Cekada Dying
Post by: Ladislaus on September 14, 2020, 08:50:08 AM
I’ve used that argument against them for years (actually, JPII died in 2005, so 15 years ago). They never admit when they are wrong which is a huge sign of pride.

I could see the case that JP2 was a precursor to Antichrist, since a lot of these patterns repeat.  At one point, the Dimonds showed the parallels between the "High Priests" during the time of the Maccabees and the V2 papal claimants, and the parallels were striking.
Title: Re: Father Cekada Dying
Post by: forlorn on September 14, 2020, 09:08:48 AM
They did a whole dvd on how JPII was the anti-christ.  Now that he's been dead over 10 years, they've yet to say, "well, we got that wrong".  
.
I don't know if they are jews or not (one certainly cannot make such a claim based on name alone), but I do think some things they get right (BOD/EENS), as their research is mostly backed up by Church quotes.  But other things they get totally wrong (usually when talking about the future).  One thing's for certain - they are very divisive and hateful, which is not a fruit of the Holy Ghost.
His point was that Incredulous was dismissing the entire article because he assumes the Dimonds are Jews and getting their opinions from "rabbinical think-tanks". But of course, when the Dimonds agree with him, like with BOD etc., he'd never say those articles are from rabbinical think-tanks. The Dimond BOD articles are all pure unadultered Catholicism, but the rest are all Jєωιѕн nonsense. I guess the Jews really love EENS? 
Title: Re: Father Cekada Dying
Post by: ByzCat3000 on September 14, 2020, 09:25:07 AM
His point was that Incredulous was dismissing the entire article because he assumes the Dimonds are Jews and getting their opinions from "rabbinical think-tanks". But of course, when the Dimonds agree with him, like with BOD etc., he'd never say those articles are from rabbinical think-tanks. The Dimond BOD articles are all pure unadultered Catholicism, but the rest are all Jєωιѕн nonsense. I guess the Jews really love EENS?
Honestly if I were a Sede I'd probably think they were a plant to made my position look bad.

But as it is, I tend to think they're just quasi laypeople who jumped on muh plain meaning of Florence and decided to anathematize everyone over it.
Title: Re: Father Cekada Dying
Post by: Last Tradhican on September 14, 2020, 11:06:42 AM
I tend to think they're just quasi laypeople who jumped on the plain meaning of Florence and all the dogmas on EENS and decided to anathematize everyone over it.
There that's more precise. The writer just admitted himself the what the Dimond's believe are just the dogmas on EENS as they are written.

He on the other hand must have someone to interpret them according to his desires.
Title: Re: Father Cekada Dying
Post by: Ladislaus on September 14, 2020, 11:18:35 AM
Well, the important distinction here is between EENS and between BoD.  Where the Dimonds cross the line is in declaring any belief in BoD, even if it's the version held by St. Thomas, St. Alphonsus, and St. Robert Bellarmine to be heretical.  I don't believe in BoD and I disagree with these saints, but to hold that the Church declared Doctors of the Church three men who taught heresy is too much of a stretch.  In fact, it's clear that the Church has long tolerated a belief in a Baptism of Desire.  But, contrary to what the BoD theorists hold, it's equally clear that the Church has never defined anything about BoD, nor can the Church positively defined a BoD, since it's obviously rooted in nothing more than sheer speculation.  There's no evidence whatsoever that BoD is part of the Deposit of Revelation.

With that said, however, a belief in a BoD for those catechumens or catechumen-like souls who actually have accepted the Catholic faith and intend to become Catholic is not fatal to EENS.  What's fatal to EENS is when BoD gets extended to those who have nothing even resembling the Catholic faith, to anyone of sincerity and "good will".  St. Thomas, St. Alphonsus, and St. Robert Bellarmine taught no such thing, but the BoD proponents constantly imply that they did.

In any case, when the Dimonds denounce as heretics those who hold even a very limited notion of BoD, they cross the line into schism, because they consider to be outside the Church those whom the Church never has.
Title: Re: Father Cekada Dying
Post by: SeanJohnson on September 14, 2020, 11:30:06 AM
Well, the important distinction here is between EENS and between BoD.  Where the Dimonds cross the line is in declaring any belief in BoD, even if it's the version held by St. Thomas, St. Alphonsus, and St. Robert Bellarmine to be heretical.  I don't believe in BoD and I disagree with these saints, but to hold that the Church declared Doctors of the Church three men who taught heresy is too much of a stretch.  In fact, it's clear that the Church has long tolerated a belief in a Baptism of Desire.  But, contrary to what the BoD theorists hold, it's equally clear that the Church has never defined anything about BoD, nor can the Church positively defined a BoD, since it's obviously rooted in nothing more than sheer speculation.  There's no evidence whatsoever that BoD is part of the Deposit of Revelation.

With that said, however, a belief in a BoD for those catechumens or catechumen-like souls who actually have accepted the Catholic faith and intend to become Catholic is not fatal to EENS.  What's fatal to EENS is when BoD gets extended to those who have nothing even resembling the Catholic faith, to anyone of sincerity and "good will".  St. Thomas, St. Alphonsus, and St. Robert Bellarmine taught no such thing, but the BoD proponents constantly imply that they did.

In any case, when the Dimonds denounce as heretics those who hold even a very limited notion of BoD, they cross the line into schism, because they consider to be outside the Church those whom the Church never has.

Baptism of desire is de fide (St. Alphonsus):

"But baptism of desire is perfect conversion to God by contrition or love of God above all things accompanied by an explicit or implicit desire for true Baptism of water, the place of which it takes as to the remission of guilt, but not as to the impression of the [baptismal] character or as to the removal of all debt of punishment. It is called “of wind [flaminis] because it takes place by the impulse of the Holy Ghost Who is called a wind [flamen]. Now it is de fide that men are also saved by Baptism of desire, by virtue of the Canon Apostolicam De Presbytero Non Baptizato and the Council of Trent, Session 6, Chapter 4, where it is said that no one can be saved “without the laver of regeneration or the desire for it.”-    Moral Theology Book 6.
Title: Re: Father Cekada Dying
Post by: Last Tradhican on September 14, 2020, 11:44:45 AM
Baptism of desire is de fide (St. Alphonsus):

"But baptism of desire is perfect conversion to God by contrition or love of God above all things accompanied by an explicit or implicit desire for true Baptism of water, the place of which it takes as to the remission of guilt, but not as to the impression of the [baptismal] character or as to the removal of all debt of punishment. It is called “of wind [flaminis] because it takes place by the impulse of the Holy Ghost Who is called a wind [flamen]. Now it is de fide that men are also saved by Baptism of desire, by virtue of the Canon Apostolicam De Presbytero Non Baptizato and the Council of Trent, Session 6, Chapter 4, where it is said that no one can be saved “without the laver of regeneration or the desire for it.”-    Moral Theology Book 6.
Another example of  a writer that can't accept the dogmas on EENS as they are written, and therefore must seek someone to interpret them according to his desires. That is the difference, the strict EENSers believe the dogmas as they are written, the others refuse to accept them as they are written and seek teachers according to their own desires, quoting say St. Thomas Aquinas when he agrees, and throwing him under the bus when he does not. They are like Protestants, each one has his own individual belief, you never know who they believe can be saved where the rubber meets the road. A waste of time to debate with them on the matter because they themselves do not know what they believe, the only thing they have in common is that they do not believe in the dogmas on EENS as they are written.
Title: Re: Father Cekada Dying
Post by: LeDeg on September 14, 2020, 12:17:51 PM
Sean, the 'de fide' from St Alphonsus defense doesn't work.

The Catholic Encyclopedia, Vol. 9, 1910, “Limbo,” p. 258: “…St. Thomas and the Schoolmen generally were in conflict with what St. Augustine and other Fathers considered to be de fide [on unbaptized infants suffering the fires of hell]...”
 
St. Cyprian, 254 A.D.: “We… judging and holding it as certain that no one beyond the pale [that is, outside the Church] is able to be baptized…”


Even the go to defender amongst the SSPX stated:

Fr. Jean-Marc Rulleau, Baptism of Desire, p. 43: “The existence of baptism of desire is, then, a truth which, although it has not been defined as a dogma by the Churchis at least proximate to the faith.”

That is not 'de fide'. 
Title: Re: Father Cekada Dying
Post by: Quo vadis Domine on September 14, 2020, 12:25:22 PM
Sean, the 'de fide' from St Alphonsus defense doesn't work.

The Catholic Encyclopedia, Vol. 9, 1910, “Limbo,” p. 258: “…St. Thomas and the Schoolmen generally were in conflict with what St. Augustine and other Fathers considered to be de fide [on unbaptized infants suffering the fires of hell]...”
 
St. Cyprian, 254 A.D.: “We… judging and holding it as certain that no one beyond the pale [that is, outside the Church] is able to be baptized…”


Even the go to defender amongst the SSPX stated:

Fr. Jean-Marc Rulleau, Baptism of Desire, p. 43: “The existence of baptism of desire is, then, a truth which, although it has not been defined as a dogma by the Church, is at least proximate to the faith.”

That is not 'de fide'.
 Saint Alphonsus wrote that after Trent defined it. I know Ladislaus takes issue with it arguing that Trent was misinterpreted, but it is much safer to be on the side of Saint Alphonsus. There is not a single theologian post Trent, that I’m aware of, who didn’t believe in BOD/BOB. Remember that they all believed in EENS.
Title: Re: Father Cekada Dying
Post by: LeDeg on September 14, 2020, 12:32:19 PM
Quo Vadis, Trent did not define BOD. 
Title: Re: Father Cekada Dying
Post by: DecemRationis on September 14, 2020, 12:42:57 PM
This is from Sean's quote from St. Alphonsus, describing BOD:


Quote
But baptism of desire is perfect conversion to God by contrition or love of God above all things accompanied by an explicit or implicit desire for true Baptism of water, the place of which it takes as to the remission of guilt, but not as to the impression of the [baptismal] character or as to the removal of all debt of punishment.It is called “of wind [flaminis] because it takes place by the impulse of the Holy Ghost Who is called a wind [flamen].


A relevant question: Isn't that how the Saints of the OT were justified before death?

Stated differently: weren't the OT saints justified by something meeting the definition of an "implicit" baptism of desire?
Title: Re: Father Cekada Dying
Post by: Quo vadis Domine on September 14, 2020, 01:10:40 PM
Quo Vadis, Trent did not define BOD.
According to Saint Alphonsus, it did.
Title: Re: Father Cekada Dying
Post by: Quo vadis Domine on September 14, 2020, 01:14:42 PM
Saint Alphonsus: “ Now it is de fide that men are also saved by Baptism of desire, by virtue of the Canon Apostolicam, “de presbytero non baptizato” and of the Council of Trent, session 6, Chapter 4 where it is said that no one can be saved “without the laver of regeneration or the desire for it.” ”
Title: Re: Father Cekada Dying
Post by: Yeti on September 14, 2020, 01:20:08 PM
Honestly if I were a Sede I'd probably think they were a plant to made my position look bad.
Yes, my friend. Yes, yes, and again yes.
.

Quote
But as it is, I tend to think they're just quasi laypeople who jumped on muh plain meaning of Florence and decided to anathematize everyone over it.

.
Please join sedevacantism! We need more people like you. :cowboy:
Title: Re: Father Cekada Dying
Post by: Stubborn on September 14, 2020, 01:26:45 PM
Saint Alphonsus: “ Now it is de fide that men are also saved by Baptism of desire, by virtue of the Canon Apostolicam, “de presbytero non baptizato” and of the Council of Trent, session 6, Chapter 4 where it is said that no one can be saved “without the laver of regeneration or the desire for it.” ”
Trent does not say the above, you have misquoted Trent.

Session 6, Chapter 4 speaks of justification, not salvation. Nowhere does Trent ever say that a desire of any kind saves.

                                                                           CHAPTER IV.
A description is introduced of the Justification of the impious, and of the Manner thereof under the law of grace.

"By which words, a description of the Justification of the impious is indicated, as being a translation, from that state wherein man is born a child of the first Adam, to the state of grace, and of the adoption of the sons of God, through the second Adam, Jesus Christ, our Saviour. And this translation, since the promulgation of the Gospel, cannot be effected, without the laver of regeneration, or the desire thereof, as it is written; unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God".
Title: Re: Father Cekada Dying
Post by: SeanJohnson on September 14, 2020, 01:34:32 PM
Trent does not say the above, you have misquoted Trent.

Session 6, Chapter 4 speaks of justification, not salvation. Nowhere does Trent ever say that a desire of any kind saves.

                                                                           CHAPTER IV.
A description is introduced of the Justification of the impious, and of the Manner thereof under the law of grace.

"By which words, a description of the Justification of the impious is indicated, as being a translation, from that state wherein man is born a child of the first Adam, to the state of grace, and of the adoption of the sons of God, through the second Adam, Jesus Christ, our Saviour. And this translation, since the promulgation of the Gospel, cannot be effected, without the laver of regeneration, or the desire thereof, as it is written; unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God".

Only for the warped Feeneyite mind is the destiny of one who dies justified possibly different than the destiny of one who has achieved salvation.

The Feeneyite heretics reason that one who dies justified, but not water baptized, is either in hell (damned despite being in the state of grace), or in a fictitious place called the “limbo of the unbaptized justified.”

It doesn’t get any dumber than that!
Title: Re: Father Cekada Dying
Post by: Yeti on September 14, 2020, 01:40:42 PM
Trent does not say the above, you have misquoted Trent.
Those were the words of St. Alphonsus that QvD was quoting, not Trent directly. If that's a misquotation, it's St. Alphonsus's misquotation.
Title: Re: Father Cekada Dying
Post by: Stubborn on September 14, 2020, 01:42:00 PM
Only for the warped Feeneyite mind is the destiny of one who dies justified possibly different than the destiny of one who has achieved salvation.

The Feeneyite heretics reason that one who dies justified, but not water baptized, is either in hell (damned despite being in the state of grace), or in a fictitious place called the “limbo of the unbaptized justified.”

It doesn’t get any dumber than that!
Sean, in order to understand what Trent is saying there, you need to read what Trent actually says there. 

"And this translation, since the promulgation of the Gospel, [Justification] cannot be effected, without the laver of regeneration, or the desire thereof, as it is written; unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God".

Title: Re: Father Cekada Dying
Post by: Yeti on September 14, 2020, 01:44:53 PM
Sean, in order to understand what Trent is saying there, you need to read what Trent actually says there. 
Can we read how it is explained by a canonized Doctor of the Church too?
Title: Re: Father Cekada Dying
Post by: Stubborn on September 14, 2020, 02:05:02 PM
Can we read how it is explained by a canonized Doctor of the Church too?
Is it not plain to see that the great St. Alphonsus' explanation, my favorite patron saint btw, does not agree with Trent's teaching? You can site him all day long and we can site Trent all day long and the two will disagree all day long. Only one teaching is the correct teaching.

FWIW, St. Alphonsus was a moral theologian, not a dogmatic theologian - who also was quoted as saying that no one gets to heaven who does not know Our Blessed Mother, which I agree with. Do you agree with him on this?
Title: Re: Father Cekada Dying
Post by: forlorn on September 14, 2020, 04:03:15 PM
This is from Sean's quote from St. Alphonsus, describing BOD:



A relevant question: Isn't that how the Saints of the OT were justified before death?

Stated differently: weren't the OT saints justified by something meeting the definition of an "implicit" baptism of desire?
Old Covenant vs New Covenant. Entirely different ballgame. 
Title: Re: Father Cekada Dying
Post by: forlorn on September 14, 2020, 04:18:28 PM
Sean, in order to understand what Trent is saying there, you need to read what Trent actually says there.  

"And this translation, since the promulgation of the Gospel, [Justification] cannot be effected, without the laver of regeneration, or the desire thereof, as it is written; unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God".
"[Justification] cannot be effected, without the layer of regeneration, or the desire thereof" = "Justification can only be effected by the layer of regeneration, or the desire [for the layer of regeneration: baptism]."

From the same chapter of Trent: "Justification of the impious is indicated, as being a translation, from that state wherein man is born a child of the first Adam, to the state of grace."

The "state wherein man is born a child of the first Adam" clearly refers to Original Sin. Therefore, the text clearly says that justification removes the stain of Original Sin and puts someone in a state of grace. No one who perishes in a state of grace can be damned, that is de fide. So one who is justified is saved, by definition(note that the state of justification can be temporarily lost by way of mortal sin).

If one who is justified is saved, and justification can be effected by the desire for baptism, as is taught by Trent, then one may be saved by desire for baptism. 

I don't know how St. Alphonsus justifies implicit baptism of desire, but explicit BOD is strongly defended by Trent.
Title: Re: Father Cekada Dying
Post by: DecemRationis on September 14, 2020, 05:47:33 PM
Old Covenant vs New Covenant. Entirely different ballgame.
Agreed.

But how about answering the question?
Title: Re: Father Cekada Dying
Post by: forlorn on September 14, 2020, 06:25:27 PM
Agreed.

But how about answering the question?
I already did. They died(and weren't even saved as such, they went to Hell first of all) under the Old Covenant. Entirely different ruleset to what we have now. There was no baptism back then, so how could BOD have saved them? And again, they weren't even saved - they were sent to Hell before Christ freed them. Unless you're implying that implicit BOD can bring souls that are already in Hell to Heaven, the scenarios aren't even remotely comparable. Obviously the OT Fathers weren't condemned to eternal damnation for being "outside "of a Church that didn't yet exist or not professing faith in dogma that had not yet been revealed. None of that has anything to do with BOD which, as the first word of the acronym suggests, is a New Covenant concept.
Title: Re: Father Cekada Dying
Post by: Last Tradhican on September 14, 2020, 07:25:24 PM
Another example of  a writer that can't accept the dogmas on EENS as they are written, and therefore must seek someone to interpret them according to his desires. That is the difference, the strict EENSers believe the dogmas as they are written, the others refuse to accept them as they are written and seek teachers according to their own desires, quoting say St. Thomas Aquinas when he agrees, and throwing him under the bus when he does not. They are like Protestants, each one has his own individual belief, you never know who they believe can be saved where the rubber meets the road. A waste of time to debate with them on the matter because they themselves do not know what they believe, the only thing they have in common is that they do not believe in the dogmas on EENS as they are written.
Well, there we go again, right after my posting above the so-called BODers start to come out again, each one with his own belief of who can be saved. They talk about BOD as if they are talking about the same thing, but they all have their own belief of who can be saved, whether they desire to be Catholic and baptized or they have no desire whatsoever to be Catholic or baptized and everything in between. Each one with his own flavor, as many varieties of what they call BOD as there are non-Catholics.
Title: Re: Father Cekada Dying
Post by: Incredulous on September 14, 2020, 07:36:50 PM

It is so funny how this topic degenerated into an EENS/BOD argument.  :laugh1:

I’ll bet the Dimonds stole EENS from Father Wathen cause it added credibility to their sede schtick.
Title: Re: Father Cekada Dying
Post by: Nadir on September 14, 2020, 09:46:42 PM
Well, there we go again, right after my posting above the so-called BODers start to come out again, each one with his own belief of who can be saved. They talk about BOD as if they are talking about the same thing, but they all have their own belief of who can be saved, whether they desire to be Catholic and baptized or they have no desire whatsoever to be Catholic or baptized and everything in between. Each one with his own flavor, as many varieties of what they call BOD as there are non-Catholics.
Tradhican quoting Tradhican yet again!
Sorry, I couldn't resist :facepalm:
Title: Re: Father Cekada Dying
Post by: Yeti on September 14, 2020, 10:28:11 PM
It is so funny how this topic degenerated into an EENS/BOD argument.  :laugh1:

I’ll bet the Dimonds stole EENS from Father Wathen cause it added credibility to their sede schtick.
Sorry, fellas, that's my fault. Someone cited the Dimonds as some sort of example of sedevacantists. I just wanted to set the record straight with those guys, but that wasn't really a relevant contribution in a thread devoted to paying last respects to Fr. Cekada.
Title: Re: Father Cekada Dying
Post by: Lighthouse on September 14, 2020, 11:20:24 PM
If I speak with the tongues of men, and of Angels,
and have not charity, I am become a sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
And if I should have prophecy, and should know all mysteries, and all knowledge: and I should have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
And if I should distribute all my goods to feed the poor, and if I should deliver my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profits me nothing.
Charity is patient, is kind: charity envieth not, dealeth not perversely, is not puffed up,
Is not ambitious, seeketh not her own, is not provoked to anger, thinketh no evil.
Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoices with the truth: Beareth all things, believeth  all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.
Charity never faileth; whether prophesies shall be made void, or tongues shall cease, or knowledge be destroyed.
For we know in part and we prophesy  in part. But if that which is perfect shall come,
When I was a child that which which is part shall be done away with.
When I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child. But when I became a man, I put away the things of a child.
WE SEE NOW THROUGH A GLASS IN AN OBSCURE MANNER : . nOW i KNOW IN PART  : but then face to face. Now I know in part : but then I shall know even as
I am known.
And now there remain, faith, hope, charity : but the greatest of these is charity.    

May Father's soul rest in peace, and eternal light shine upon him.
Title: Re: Father Cekada Dying
Post by: DecemRationis on September 15, 2020, 12:01:47 AM
I already did. They died(and weren't even saved as such, they went to Hell first of all) under the Old Covenant. Entirely different ruleset to what we have now. There was no baptism back then, so how could BOD have saved them? And again, they weren't even saved - they were sent to Hell before Christ freed them. Unless you're implying that implicit BOD can bring souls that are already in Hell to Heaven, the scenarios aren't even remotely comparable. Obviously the OT Fathers weren't condemned to eternal damnation for being "outside "of a Church that didn't yet exist or not professing faith in dogma that had not yet been revealed. None of that has anything to do with BOD which, as the first word of the acronym suggests, is a New Covenant concept.

Sorry, yet once again you did not answer the simple question, despite going on and on and on on your tangent. And most of the post is consumed with a concept I didn't even use, "saved" in the sense of in heaven. And even then, you made yourself look rather odd (to put it kindly) in light of your own post above, where you compared "justification" and "salvation" - here:


Quote
The "state wherein man is born a child of the first Adam" clearly refers to Original Sin. Therefore, the text clearly says that justification removes the stain of Original Sin and puts someone in a state of grace. No one who perishes in a state of grace can be damned, that is de fide. So one who is justified is saved, by definition(note that the state of justification can be temporarily lost by way of mortal sin).

If one who is justified is saved, and justification can be effected by the desire for baptism, as is taught by Trent, then one may be saved by desire for baptism. 

Now, my question, yet again, was this (with the operative words you ignored or lost focus of highlighted): how were the OT saints justified?

It might do you well to review your own words above, too, where you say "one who is justified is saved." 

So, unless you want to maintain the OT saints didn't need to be "justified" - or, as you correctly state, be "put . . . in a state of grace" - before they died so that they could end up "saved" in heaven -

How were the OT saints justified?

 
Title: Re: Father Cekada Dying
Post by: Last Tradhican on September 15, 2020, 04:34:28 AM
Sorry, fellas, that's my fault. Someone cited the Dimonds as some sort of example of sedevacantists. I just wanted to set the record straight with those guys, but that wasn't really a relevant contribution in a thread devoted to paying last respects to Fr. Cekada.
True.  I suggest no one post or answer anything not having to do with Fr. Cekada.
Title: Re: Father Cekada Dying
Post by: Stubborn on September 15, 2020, 07:12:13 AM
How were the OT saints justified?
By worshiping God, believing in a redeemer to come and living a moral life.
Title: Re: Father Cekada Dying
Post by: forlorn on September 15, 2020, 07:53:24 AM
Sorry, yet once again you did not answer the simple question, despite going on and on and on on your tangent. And most of the post is consumed with a concept I didn't even use, "saved" in the sense of in heaven. And even then, you made yourself look rather odd (to put it kindly) in light of your own post above, where you compared "justification" and "salvation" - here:


Now, my question, yet again, was this (with the operative words you ignored or lost focus of highlighted): how were the OT saints justified?

It might do you well to review your own words above, too, where you say "one who is justified is saved."

So, unless you want to maintain the OT saints didn't need to be "justified" - or, as you correctly state, be "put . . . in a state of grace" - before they died so that they could end up "saved" in heaven -

How were the OT saints justified?
You asked: "Stated differently: weren't the OT saints justified by something meeting the definition of an "implicit" baptism of desire?"

I explained why BOD was not applicable. You complained. I explained it again in excruciating detail. You complained. And now you're getting all snarky and pretending I ignored your post because you can't even bloody remember what you said.

I didn't care to answer how the OT Fathers were justified(which they weren't in the proper sense, at least not until centuries/millennia after death); they're completely irrelevant to the question of BOD, as I've explained multiple times now.

Next time you want to get all snarky and play the wise guy, maybe try remembering your own words before you paint yourself like even more of an idiot.
Title: Re: Father Cekada Dying
Post by: DecemRationis on September 15, 2020, 08:00:25 AM
You asked: "Stated differently: weren't the OT saints justified by something meeting the definition of an "implicit" baptism of desire?"

I explained why BOD was not applicable. You complained. I explained it again in excruciating detail. You complained. And now you're getting all snarky and pretending I ignored your post because you can't even bloody remember what you said.

I didn't care to answer how the OT Fathers were justified(which they weren't in the proper sense - they weren't "saved" until centuries/millennia after death); they're completely bloody irrelevant to the question of BOD, as I've explained multiple times now.

Next time you want to get all snarky and play the wise guy, maybe try remembering your own words before you paint yourself like even more of an idiot.

Quote
I didn't care to answer how the OT Fathers were justified

Right. You didn't answer the question. Glad that's done. 


Quote
they're completely bloody irrelevant to the question of BOD, as I've explained multiple times now.

Not when the question turns on St. Alphonsus's definition, which I quoted and referred to in posing the question. 

Hopefully we're done, and I'll discuss the issue with others who want to address the question. 

Title: Re: Father Cekada Dying
Post by: forlorn on September 15, 2020, 08:02:20 AM
Right. You didn't answer the question. Glad that's done.


Not when the question turns on St. Alphonsus's definition, which I quoted and referred to in posing the question.

Hopefully we're done, and I'll discuss the issue with others who want to address the question.

Quote
"Stated differently: weren't the OT saints justified by something meeting the definition of an "implicit" baptism of desire?"
Three times I've answered this question.

Not my fault you can neither read nor remember your own words.

Of course the problem is not that I "didn't answer the question", which I have three times now. The problem is that I haven't given you the answer you want: that Baptism of Desire somehow saved souls before either salvation or baptism was a thing.
Title: Re: Father Cekada Dying
Post by: DecemRationis on September 15, 2020, 08:03:37 AM
By worshiping God, believing in a redeemer to come and living a moral life.

Thank you, Stubborn.

I'll quote your response and continue with this issue in the other thread where more appropriate.

Or it might be better to start a new topic. 

Title: Re: Father Cekada Dying
Post by: DecemRationis on September 15, 2020, 08:08:42 AM
Three times I've answered this question.

Not my fault you can neither read nor remember your own words.

Of course the problem is not that I "didn't answer the question", which I have three times now. The problem is that I haven't given you the answer you want: that Baptism of Desire somehow saved souls before either salvation or baptism were a thing.
You keeping digging a bigger hole in an attempt to justify yourself. 

There was a time when salvation wasn't a thing? Please. 

And to be saved, man always had to be justified by the grace of God.

Let's take this elsewhere. I'll start a new thread. 

I'll end this here with: Father Cekada, pray for us