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Author Topic: Doubtful Validity of Sacraments Outside Tradition  (Read 22430 times)

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Offline Stubborn

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Re: Doubtful Validity of Sacraments Outside Tradition
« Reply #60 on: November 20, 2024, 02:10:32 PM »
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  • So, considering our own predicament, this will give rise to the obvious question for any Catholic - does the pope have to be Catholic? R&R keep lowering the bar. If Francis sacrifices a child on the altar of St. Peter's tomorrow while chanting "Hail Lucifier O' Lord of Light" The SSPX will still call him pope. There is nothing the conciliar Church has done, or could do to prove to them that it is NOT the Catholic Church.
    You are phrasing the question incorrectly, as such you are forming your conclusion incorrectly. Yes, the pope has to be Catholic - if he does not want to burn in hell forever.

    R&R is simply obeying the explicit directive given to us by Pope Paul IV in cuм ex. 
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Doubtful Validity of Sacraments Outside Tradition
    « Reply #61 on: November 20, 2024, 02:18:26 PM »
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  • Quote
    What right do you have to judge how we determine the validity of sacraments?
    You're asking the wrong question.  Multiple, multiple Trad clerics in the last 50 years have all come to the same conclusion - there is positive doubt.  That is the Trad consensus.


    Only the Church can say whether the V2 sacraments are valid or invalid....BUT...when positive doubts exist, the Church has told us, through Canon Law, that we MUST avoid doubtful sacraments (and treat them as invalid) under pain of grave sin.

    1.  Canon Law commands that we avoid doubtful sacraments under pain of sin.
    1b.  Pope Innocent condemned the idea that we can receive "probably valid" sacraments.  We cannot, except in danger of death.
    2.  The Trad consensus is that V2 sacraments (ordination, consecration, new mass) are doubtful.  There are multiple facts to reach this conclusion.
    3.  Ergo, the Church's canon law tells us how to treat V2 sacraments.

    The question of "Are they valid?" is irrelevant.  All we need to know is "Do they have positive doubts?"  And the answer is "Yes".


    Offline Meg

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    Re: Doubtful Validity of Sacraments Outside Tradition
    « Reply #62 on: November 20, 2024, 02:45:03 PM »
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  • You may choose to think or feel that I am presuming to have authority - go ahead and argue it to the high heavens, shout it from the rooftops, hold it to your dying breath - makes no difference to me. Or, come after me by addressing my question(s) and arguments. If you won't do that - I refuse to speak to you anymore - Go ahead, you can have the last word. 

    It's an over-reaction to think that I want to shout it from the rooftops, or to hold it to my dying breath. What an odd thing to say. 

    You cloak your "questions" with an air of charity which you obviously do not really have. Your arrogance betrays you. 
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Doubtful Validity of Sacraments Outside Tradition
    « Reply #63 on: November 20, 2024, 02:46:21 PM »
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  • The pope speaks ex cathedra much more than you would like to admit. He speaks "from the chair" whenever he acts as teacher for all Christians. R&R commonly conflates ex cathedra with "solemn definition". I know we could go in circles over this point ad nauseum - so I am happy to let it go at - agree to disagree.

    Do you think Francis is Catholic?
    No need to go in circles if we simply adhere to the infallible definition V1 gave us, i.e. the pope is in fallible when he defines a doctrine ex cathedra. They prefaced that by saying he is not infallible when he makes known new doctrines. New doctrines = heresies. V1 never said popes would not be able to make known new doctrines.

    I do not think the pope is Catholic, I think he is an anti-Catholic heretic. And I profess that (to paraphrase St. Thomas More)....I remain the pope's good subject, but God's first.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Doubtful Validity of Sacraments Outside Tradition
    « Reply #64 on: November 21, 2024, 05:06:21 AM »
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  • I consider ^^ this to be a twisting/misreading of Papal Infallibility. Some competent theologians argue otherwise than you have about the pope being able to teach heresy for the Universal Church (I know you are aware these theologians exist, everyone who is a vocal member here is) You may feel the need to defend you interpretation of Papal Infallibility as the correct one for the 1000th time - go ahead - we have all heard it before - the impasse remains - the problem cannot be overcame with argumentation - better minds than ours have tried.
    And other theologians agree with me, so there's that. But for me, I can read what is written in V1 and it is in perfect unity with all of the doctrines of the Church. OTOH, if what you say is actually true, then all trads are exactly wrong and need to convert to the NO.

    I like this snip from a sermon given by Fr. Wathen....
    "….All of you know very well, what God has revealed both in the Old Testament and Through Christ and His Apostles, is one doctrine. Not only does it mean one thing, but it is a single, as it were, a single cloth woven from the top so that there are no seams, there is a perfect unity. Therefore, anyone who in any way teaches contrary to any one of it’s doctrines, any part of this holy deposit, violates it’s holiness and of course the truth of God.  And if anyone comes forth and presents a doctrine contrary to it, he necessarily rouses the ire of Almighty God because he substitutes his puny human ideas and preferences to the holiness of the Divine Revelation."


    Quote
    So, we as I said, we will have to agree to disagree because we cannot agree, and we are at an impasse. That's OK with me, I don't need everyone to think like I do, I don't need to impose my understanding of things on others as dogma. I have made my arguments against the presumed validity of N.O. baptisms and trad priests who were baptized in the N.O. - that is my position. You have explained why you follow the SSPX in deciding these things - that is your choice, and you have the responsibility to make that choice for yourself during this time. I choose not to trust those judgments, unless someone can sway my mind with better arguments. I still consider you a Catholic (for what that is worth) and I am thankful for your contribution to this thread.
    Well, baptisms are too easy to administer validly even when illicit, even for NO baptisms. And yes, ultimately it is my choice - which is why I ask the priest face to face as and consider that a major factor in making my decision. This hasn't been a concern of mine for decades, but for those who have this concern, I recommend that they need to do the same. If they still have doubts then do not go to that priest.

    I consider sedes Catholic, albeit a kind of "special needs Catholic" because their faith seems to depend very much on presuming with some degree of certainty papal invalidity.   
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Doubtful Validity of Sacraments Outside Tradition
    « Reply #65 on: November 21, 2024, 08:43:40 AM »
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  • The topic of infallibility is irrelevant.  V2's rites aren't infallible, they don't claim to be and no V2 pope ever said they were.  

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Doubtful Validity of Sacraments Outside Tradition
    « Reply #66 on: November 21, 2024, 11:26:55 AM »
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  • Can you clarify?
    If you agree with those theologians teaching that the pope is unable to teach heresy for the Universal Church, then all the heresies taught since V2 are not heresies at all.

    It sounds as if you agree with Fr. Fenton, who agrees with some other theologians of which you speak: 
    Quote
    "In this field, God has given the Holy Father a kind of infallibility distinct from the charism of doctrinal infallibility in the strict sense. He has so constructed and ordered the Church that those who follow the directives given to the entire kingdom of God on earth will never be brought into the position of ruining themselves spiritually through this obedience. Our Lord dwells within His Church in such a way that those who obey disciplinary and doctrinal directives of this society can never find themselves displeasing God through their adherence to the teachings and the commands given to the universal Church militant. Hence there can be no valid reason to discountenance even the non-infallible teaching authority of Christ’s vicar on earth".
    If this is a teaching of the Church, which it isn't, but if it were, then all trads of whatever persuasion are altogether wrong, because per the above quote it is impossible for a pope to preach heresy.

    OTOH, it is because so many wrongfully believe the above to be what the Church teaches, that they've done one of two things, 1) they follow the conciliar popes and are NOers, 2) they are sedes.

    For those in my #1, they demonstrate their faith in a [false] Church teaching by following the conciliar popes. For those in my #2, they demonstrate they have zero faith in a [false] Church teaching by their sedeism.


    Quote
    I could spin the same back at you. Is not your faith too some degree dependent on acknowledging that Francis is pope? I mean would you die a martyr's death to uphold that he is?
    No, my faith is not dependent to any degree on the status of the pope. I pray daily for him and pray extra for him when I happen across an article or news bit telling of some of the things he does. Beyond that I pay no attention to him. If he were to ever command something, I would do it out of obedience - as long as it wasn't sinful.

    And no, I would not die a martyrs death to uphold that he is the pope - that'd be a wasted martyrdom whether he's the pope or not. 

    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Doubtful Validity of Sacraments Outside Tradition
    « Reply #67 on: November 21, 2024, 01:25:18 PM »
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  • This would only make sense if I believe that the V2 popes were actually popes,
    Well, the popes were elected by the college of cardinals, they all accept him as pope and we have to also. There is no getting around this.

    Quote
    I do like that quote from Fenton - thanks! It in no way would make "all the trads wrong". Because if the pope were to preach heresy, he would fall ipso facto from the papacy.
    The quote you like from Fr. Fenton says that the pope has an additional infallibility, not sure where it came from, it's not taught in V1 but because of that infallibility...."those who follow the directives given to the entire kingdom of God on earth will never be brought into the position of ruining themselves spiritually through this obedience.

    So you say "if the pope were to preach heresy, he would fall ipso facto from the papacy." Yet per Fr. Fenton, that is an absolute impossibility for the pope to preach heresy. Per Fr. Fenton, he has an additional infallibility that prevents him from preaching heresy.

    And this is the conundrum: The Pope cannot preach heresy, but if he does, he is no longer pope - but popes cannot preach heresy! - but if he does he is no longer pope. Again, conundrum.

    Quote
    And if you won't die to uphold the "Dogmatic Fact" (which you believe it is) that Francis is pope - wouldn't that be tantamount to denying the dogma of Papal Supremacy with which that fact is "intimately connected"?
    We can die a martyr's death defending any one of the Church's doctrines, the status of the pope is not a doctrine. Now we could hope to die a martyr's death defending the dogma from Unam Sanctam: "Furthermore, we declare, we proclaim, we define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff." But to die defending the status of the pope? I wouldn't.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Doubtful Validity of Sacraments Outside Tradition
    « Reply #68 on: November 21, 2024, 02:44:59 PM »
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  • To me, they all the "cardinals" manifested their heresy when they signed the docuмents of VII. They had already lost their offices by internally consenting to the heresies within and they manifested it externally by signing the docuмents. Many of them may not have even been cardinals for the following reason(s):

    John XXIII may not have even been canonically elected, too much suspicion around him (suspect of Modernism file at the Holy Office) he was an unworthy candidate (cuм ex) and/or there are other theories like the whole Siri thing, it will probably all come out in the end. Him taking the name of an anti-pope should have been a clue.

    So, "getting around this" is not that hard for me. God made this world from nothing, He took on mortal flesh, walked on water, rose from the dead and gives Himself to us in what looks like bread. By the grace of God, I believe much more difficult things then what happened before/during V2, I may not know exactly what happened, but then I don't have to. The pope cannot teach condemned heresy from his magisterium. That I have to believe.
    Well, the consequence of getting around it, is that the total legal structure of the Church is either threatened, violated, or it's destroyed. And if it's not destroyed, then what is it?



    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Meg

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    Re: Doubtful Validity of Sacraments Outside Tradition
    « Reply #69 on: November 21, 2024, 03:11:50 PM »
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  • Well, the consequence of getting around it, is that the total legal structure of the Church is either threatened, violated, or it's destroyed. And if it's not destroyed, then what is it?

    If it's not destroyed, then maybe it's a situation of the true Church being occupied, and as such, the conciliar church still retains some elements of Catholicism, though not many.

    In Bp. Tissier's study, I recall that he said that the conciliar church is like a parasite that feeds off of the True Church, and that the conciliar church could not even exist, unless it's gets its lifeblood from the True Church. So there are elements that are retained, insomuch as a parasite will retain the life of the host that it feeds off of. An odd way to put the Crisis, but it makes a certain amount of sense.

    Unlike some, +ABL never completely wrote off the conciliar church. He had hope that Rome would one day embrace Tradition be Catholic again.
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Doubtful Validity of Sacraments Outside Tradition
    « Reply #70 on: November 22, 2024, 04:43:38 AM »
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  • That my friend, is what we call a mystery :laugh1:
    lol, but it's a self imposed mystery, necessary to maintain the idea that 1) popes were never popes to begin with in order to eliminate 2) the conundrum. This is all rooted in the false teaching exemplified by Fr. Fenton in the quote I provided

    Everyone who believes that the Church teaches what Fr. Fenton taught, are all bound to be NO - because the pope can do no wrong to the Universal Church militant. Indeed, we would all be bound to adhere to this [false] teaching of the Church - because it's a teaching of the Church. But it's not, what it is, is error that people believe is a teaching of the Church because it was taught by theologians as tho it is a teaching of the Church.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Doubtful Validity of Sacraments Outside Tradition
    « Reply #71 on: November 22, 2024, 04:49:09 AM »
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  • If it's not destroyed, then maybe it's a situation of the true Church being occupied, and as such, the conciliar church still retains some elements of Catholicism, though not many.

    In Bp. Tissier's study, I recall that he said that the conciliar church is like a parasite that feeds off of the True Church, and that the conciliar church could not even exist, unless it's gets its lifeblood from the True Church. So there are elements that are retained, insomuch as a parasite will retain the life of the host that it feeds off of. An odd way to put the Crisis, but it makes a certain amount of sense.

    Unlike some, +ABL never completely wrote off the conciliar church. He had hope that Rome would one day embrace Tradition be Catholic again.
    Yes, the Church's enemies do occupy the Church as +Tissier said.  Fr. Wathen agrees, in his book he said: "...the Conciliar Church is not the Catholic  Church, though it is within it, like a fifth column..."

    Google definition of a Fifth Column: A fifth column is a group of people who undermine a larger group or nation from within, usually in favor of an enemy group or another nation. The activities of a fifth column can be overt or clandestine.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Meg

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    Re: Doubtful Validity of Sacraments Outside Tradition
    « Reply #72 on: November 22, 2024, 09:40:47 AM »
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  • Yes, the Church's enemies do occupy the Church as +Tissier said.  Fr. Wathen agrees, in his book he said: "...the Conciliar Church is not the Catholic  Church, though it is within it, like a fifth column..."

    Google definition of a Fifth Column: A fifth column is a group of people who undermine a larger group or nation from within, usually in favor of an enemy group or another nation. The activities of a fifth column can be overt or clandestine.

    Yes, I agree. Fr. Wathen's view about the conciliar church as being within the Catholic Church, like a fifth column, makes sense. 
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Doubtful Validity of Sacraments Outside Tradition
    « Reply #73 on: November 22, 2024, 10:07:04 AM »
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  • Well, not exactly. You think I am using Papal Infallibility to maintain the "mystery" of Church's Indefectibility. But for me that is not the case.
    What I think is that sedes are judging the pope, something we are not permitted to do per canon law, cuм ex and every other Church teaching out there since the first Pentecost Sunday. 

    Per cuм ex we *are* permitted to do what we are doing, i.e. "contradict" him by persevering in the true faith and condemning the NO. R&R do this without concern of the status of popes because the conciliar popes have met the criteria of cuм ex by deviating from the faith. Whether they were or never were popes is irrelevant, everyone on earth (except sedes) knows them all as popes, and as long as we persevere in the faith, his status does not matter. Our salvation depends on us keeping the faith no matter what scandals that "must needs be" cometh.


    Quote
    This is how I got to this point:

     1) If one is a public heretic = proof one is not a member of the Catholic Church

    2) If he is not member of the Church = not the pope

    3) If not the pope = false pope
    You have to remember here that heresy is a sin, a Catholic who has fallen into the sin of heresy is a sinner, in the case of the pope (and to not lose sight of what heresy is), lets say the pope is a mortal sinner.  Should the heretic pope decide to repent, all he has to do is go to confession same as you and I and every other Catholic and his sin of heresy can be forgiven.

    Now obviously you know that this sacrament is for Catholics only, for members of the Church only, and that one who is not a member of the Church cannot use it, but the pope can use it same as only Catholics can. And in danger of death, Trent says repentant heretics can also receive the sacrament of Extreme Unction, which is another sacrament only members of the Church can receive. Ergo, the pope is a member of the Church.

    And before you go there, yes, I agree that he should first publicly abjure his heresies, but regardless, that's up to him, the remedy for forgiveness of his sin of heresy is the same for all members of the Church in the state of sin, the sacrament of Penance.

    All of this is to say a heretic who was a Catholic is still a member of the Church in virtue of the sacrament of penance, which is to say that relying on the above formula as part of your reasoning, doesn't work.  

    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Doubtful Validity of Sacraments Outside Tradition
    « Reply #74 on: November 22, 2024, 12:32:40 PM »
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  • That is what you think. But, it is not how SVs see it = difference of opinion/perception and gets us nowhere.
    I agree we see it differently, we see everything differently lol. Papal teachings have dual meaning, words have dual meanings. One thing is certain for both of us, our salvation is not dependent upon the status of popes.

    Quote
    But in the case with public heresy - the Sacrament of Penance alone will NOT remedy a heretic's situation. He must also make a public (two witnesses) abjuration of his heresy in front of his superior (bishop), then receive absolution in order to enter back into the Church. 
    Here you are making your own rules. The pope has no superior lol and if you look it up in canon law, you will find that public abjuration is only required in 2 situations: 1) for a new convert prior to baptism or 2) if the bishop mandates it, other than that, the norm is confession only. The thing you're after using the label of "public abjuration," is in reality a public confession. Trent says this is not required.

    You must have faith in the power of the keys given to priests in the sacrament, in the confessional to forgive sins - or to not forgive sins, Christ said it is up to them.

    Also, Trent Session XIV, Ch. VII teaches when death is imminent:
    Quote
    Nevertheless, for fear lest any may perish on this account, it has always been very piously observed in the said Church of God, that there be no reservation at the point of death, and that therefore all priests may absolve all

    penitents whatsoever from every kind of sins and censures whatever: and as, save at that point of death, priests have no power in reserved cases, let this alone be their endeavour, to persuade penitents to repair to superior and lawful judges for the benefit of absolution.


    Trent is not talking about non-members here. The penitent heretic could well receive the sacrament, die, and go straight to heaven without any public abjuration. His sin of heresy was forgiven, which could never happen if he was not already a Catholic.

    There is no getting around this.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse