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Author Topic: Doubtful Validity of Sacraments Outside Tradition  (Read 26414 times)

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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: Doubtful Validity of Sacraments Outside Tradition
« Reply #25 on: November 19, 2024, 09:26:18 AM »
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Can you point me to this Canon please?
I don't have that handy.  "Suspected of heresy" was my phrase, not necessarily used by canon law.  What I meant to say is, one is not allowed to go to masses/sacraments of the following:

a)  Doubtful priests
b)  priests suspected of heresy (i.e. materially in error)
c)  priests who hold heresy (i.e. formally in error)
d) priests who are schismatic
e) priests who are guilty of excommunication, interdicts, or penalties due to the above.

If you search canon law, all of these categories should be mentioned in the same area.  And all V2/new-rite/indult priests fall into these categories, so they are off-limits.

p.s.  The above prohibitions do not apply "in cases of emergency/death", which is applicable to many canons related to sacraments of penance.  This entire discussion is related to "non-emergency, non-death, normal" situations.

Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: Doubtful Validity of Sacraments Outside Tradition
« Reply #26 on: November 19, 2024, 10:49:19 AM »

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So, considering your list above a) "Doubtful priest"; Would you go to a traditional priest who had been baptized in the N.O. or came from a protestant sect? If his baptism was doubtful,
99% of novus ordo baptisms are valid.  Don't be scrupulous about this. 


Most of protestant baptisms are valid.  Some are doubtful but this is based on the "type" of protestant sect.  


Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: Doubtful Validity of Sacraments Outside Tradition
« Reply #27 on: November 19, 2024, 10:50:07 AM »
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I would disagree, I would say that we are in an unprecedented crisis and nothing about this situation is normal,
"Normal" means non-emergency situation (i.e. not life and death).  Canon law forbids you from going to confession to a heretic/excommunicated priest.  BUT...in an 'emergency/life or death' situation, you could confess to him, if he was the only option.  Same applies to an orthodox priest or a doubtful priest.

Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Doubtful Validity of Sacraments Outside Tradition
« Reply #28 on: November 19, 2024, 11:12:23 AM »
So, considering your list above a) "Doubtful priest"; Would you go to a traditional priest who had been baptized in the N.O. or came from a protestant sect? If his baptism was doubtful, so is his priesthood...

Good question.  I think there are thresholds or degrees of doubt.  I think a lesser degree of doubt suffices to justify a conditional Baptism vs. the degree of doubt required to avoid a priest who may have been baptized Novus Ordo.  At that level, you'd probably be looking at something closer to a negative than a positive doubt, where you're in "what it ...?" territory (the general characterization of negative doubt).  What if THIS priest's Novus Ordo Baptism was invalid?  To me that's closer to the question even in the Traditional era of "What if the priest who baptized this priest [Traditional Rite] botched the form?"  It's much less likely that this would happen, but still possible.

Let's say that in the pre-V2 era, .005% of Baptisms were invalid (due to mistakes by priests) but in the Novus Ordo era, .5% are invalid due to, say, a tendency for some priests to go "off script" and invalidate the essential form.

I believe that the .5% we're talking about here would suffices to justify a conditional Baptism, but not be sufficient to be required to treat any given priest as doubtful, or to withhold giving Holy Communion to those who had come over from the NO without a conditional Baptism.

So, IMO, different thresholds of doubt required, a lower one for conditional Baptism, a higher one for doubting the validity of any given priest.

You know, given the modern era, I do question why the Church wouldn't and shouldn't add various requirements (ordinary requirements) to have all the essential form parts of Baptisms videotaped, and then reviewed quickly by someone at the Chancery in case any problems are detected.  I mean, why not?  We have the technology that would make it a trivial effort.  I imagine an individual at the Chancery could go through all the tapes in about an hour a week.  Probably much better use of that time than 95% of all the activities that happen in the NO circuses.

Online Stubborn

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Re: Doubtful Validity of Sacraments Outside Tradition
« Reply #29 on: November 19, 2024, 11:27:39 AM »
Thanks for circling the wagon back to my original question (which, as of yet no one has actually answered). I restate:

What criteria do you use to decide to place your trust in these investigations/determinations?

What is the logic that you use?  Or is it more like - "I just do what so-and-so says, not my responsibility, etc." Even if you think it is not your "responsibility" to make those determinations, Catholics a moral obligation to have moral certitude in the Sacraments they receive. Without the Holy Office to rule on these things - we all have to function in our own way. What criteria do you use to make those decisions?
Initially, I like to know a little about the priest, specifically I like to know about his orthodoxy. But yes, for the most part I do place my trust in those who should know what is valid and what is invalid - for me that usually means the SSPX, but in the end, validity and orthodoxy go together. I will add that I have had no issues with any NO-to-Trad priest. 

For me, whenever I come across a trad priest that was NO, I always go out of my way to ask the priest to his face, or in the confessional about his ordination. In over 5 decades, I guess I've asked enough priests to say that they *all* are as concerned about their validity as I was, and that they have all been very happy and maybe even a bit proud to talk about their ordinations / conditional ordinations. 


Additional questions just for you:

1) Would you have received Penance/Holy Communion from Fr. Hesse (who was not conditionally ordained)?
2) What about a traditionally ordained priest who was baptized in the N.O. and had no conditional baptism?

  1) Yes. Of course. As I said above, those who should know, knew his ordination was valid.......

In one of his talks, Fr. Hesse talked about his NO ordination, saying:

Quote
"...I have been ordained, unfortunately in the new rite of ordination, but thank God in Latin, everything strictly by the book and +ABL said that would be valid, +Fellay said it's valid and Fr. Franz Schmidberger who is my present superior in Austria says it's valid and +Williamson said there's no need for conditional ordination..."
2) If the priest is traditionally ordained, his baptism was valid. I am not the least bit scrupulous about this. If there was ever a doubt, he would have been conditionally baptized prior to being ordained.