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Author Topic: Commuion in the hand  (Read 5454 times)

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Offline Plenus Venter

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Re: Commuion in the hand
« Reply #75 on: September 15, 2023, 09:19:12 PM »
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  • Bump-a-roni ^^^

    Here's the citations:

    [1] Tertullian, On Idolatry 7.1.
    [2] Cyprian, On the Good of Patience 14, On the Lapsed 16 and 26, and Letter 55.9.
    [3] Augustine, Answer to Petilian 2.23.53 and Against Parmenian 2.7.13.
    [4] Cyril of Alexandria, Commentary on John 6.1 and 12.1.
    [5] John Climacus, Ladder of Divine Ascent 28.
    [6] Cyril of Jerusalem, Mystagogical Catecheses 5.13.
    [7] Basil of Caesarea, Letter 93.
    [8] John Chrysostom, Homilies on Ephesians, Baptismal Instruction 12.15–16, On the Incomprehensible Nature of God 6.36, and On the Priesthood 3.4.
    [9] Theodore of Mopsuestia, Catechetical Homilies 6.
    [10] See John Damascene, On the Orthodox Faith, 4.13.
    [11] Council of Constantinople in Trullo, canon 101.
    [12] Ephrem the Syrian, Hymns on Faith 10 and Hymns on Virginity 33.7.
    [13] Narsai, Homily 17a.
    [14] Cesarius of Arles, sermon 227.
    [15] See the council of Auxerre, canon 36 (it directs women not to receive on their bare hands, but with their hand covered by a cloth).
    [16] Bede, Ecclesiastical History of the English People, 4.24.
    [17] See Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History, 7.9.4.
    [18] See Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History, 6.43.18.
    [19] You can see an image here.
    Good work, Sean. None are so blind as those who will not see. Even a time machine won't help them.

    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: Commuion in the hand
    « Reply #76 on: September 15, 2023, 09:38:48 PM »
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  • I'm not going to get involved in the argument. But looking at the big picture, 10,000 feet view, I only want to say this:

    Sean, you DO realize that this is VERY, VERY offensive to Trad ears, and everything the Trad movement stands for. It's offensive to the sensus Catholicus of MOST if not ALL Trads.

    So a random Catholic layman could touch the Blessed Sacrament, and not be committing a sacrilege, but he was merely "born too late" or some such? Seems like it would be sinful, to me. An objective offense against God and the Blessed Sacrament. After all, what motive could anyone have for thus violating the Blessed Sacrament? "Oh, I just can't get used to these new Church regulations! Because in MY day, back 1,500 years ago, we used to receive Communion in the hand!" Uh, there are no vampires. No one lives more than 120 years. We're talking about men and women living in the CURRENT age, since time machines are metaphysically impossible.

    But even if certain things were technically true, one could nevertheless state that A) it is offensive to pious ears and B) there is no good that will come from shouting it from the housetops. NOTE: I'm passing over the question of "is it actually true" for purposes of my point. As the Thomistic scholars would say, "transeo".

    This is a very curious crusade you're on here, Sean. What is your motivation? It sure makes people think, oh I don't know, that you've been frog-boiled by your ongoing attendance at the SSPX this past 11 years, that you've absorbed some neo-SSPX Conciliar poison, and/or that you are an "Indulter" to quote a recent thread. I'm not saying any of these things are true -- but I would certainly understand why anyone would think such things! Let's be objective here.

    Assuming those accusations are NOT true, then what IS your motivation in defending CITH to *any* degree? Of all the things to spend your time on, all the possible crusades, all the hundreds of errors and cօռspιʀαcιҽs in the Modern World, this is certainly a MOST CURIOUS hill to die on!

    Please, help me out here.
    I don't often disagree with Matthew.
    But this post is not about justifying the practice of communion in the hand. In spite of what some on this thread want to believe, it has nothing to do with modernist, conciliar archeologism/antiquarianism. 
    This is a simple discussion about historical liturgical practice for reception of the Blessed Sacrament, and how, in light of that, we consider it to be sacrilegious today for unconsecrated hands to touch the sacred host.
    The Catholic has nothing to fear from truth. It is indeed what every Catholic should stand for.
    Nor is this a crusade. Or, if it is a crusade for anything, it is that members on this forum accept one of the basic principles of logic: contra factum non fit argumentum.
    It seems clear to me that there has been a development in the Church's understanding and practice on this matter, such that what was not considered a sacrilege in the early years of the Church could certainly be considered so today in the context of our current understanding and legislation. That should not be offensive to pious ears!


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Commuion in the hand
    « Reply #77 on: September 15, 2023, 10:06:55 PM »
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  • Quote
    such that what was not considered a sacrilege in the early years of the Church could certainly be considered so today in the context of our current understanding and legislation. That should not be offensive to pious ears!
    The problem is, Sean’s arguments lead one to believe he doesn’t think it’s bad today.    

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Commuion in the hand
    « Reply #78 on: September 15, 2023, 10:52:21 PM »
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  • The problem is, Sean’s arguments lead one to believe he doesn’t think it’s bad today.   

    I do admit that the mentally retarded could harbor such thoughts.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Commuion in the hand
    « Reply #79 on: September 16, 2023, 04:16:10 AM »
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  • In your analogy, historical facts and truth (trees) are preventing me from seeing the broader unified truth of the whole ( the forest). But that’s not the way the human minds works.

    Facts and propositions that we believe to be true serve as a premises that logically lead to conclusions in a syllogism. Here’s an example: 


    a. Communion in the hand is intrinsically evil (error that PAC has embraced as true)

    b. The true Church lead by a true pope could never allow something that is intrinsically evil. 

    Conclusion. The true church lead by a true pope could never allow communion in the hand.

    The conclusions then becomes another premise that leads to other conclusions. Example:

    a. The true church lead by a true pope cannot allow communion in the hand. 

    b. The church and popes after V2 have allowed communion in the hand.

    Conclusion: The church after V2 ( the conciliar Church) cannot be the true church, and the conciliar popes icannot have been true popes.

    That conclusion then becomes another premise that leads to another conclusion. Example:

    a. The conciliar church is not the true church and the Holy See has been vacant for decades.

    b. Theologians teach that if there are no more cardinals, the laity could elect a pope.  (Theory that is mistakenly embraced as a fact)

    Conclusion: Since there are no more true cardinals, we traditional Catholics can elect a pope.

    We know where that conclusion can lead. 



    One factual error (communion in the hand is intrinsically evil) is all it takes to set off a chain of errors that leads to a Pope Michael. As St. Thomas said, a little error in the beginning results in a big error in the end.

    Now, considering the effect that one error, and the conclusions that logically follow from it, can have on the mind, is it more likely that historical facts and truth will distort a persons view of reality and prevent them from seeing the bigger picture, or is it more likely that they will help him see things more clearly, reason more soundly, and judge the reality of the bigger picture (the forest) as it actually is?


    Well your conclusion is wrong, because the vast majority of those who come to the realization that Bergoglio is not a true pope haven’t adhered to or elected another false pope.

    One thing is obvious however, “Pope” Michael had more of a claim to the papal office than Bergoglio since Michael at least seemed to profess the Catholic faith while Bergoglio does not.
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?


    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Commuion in the hand
    « Reply #80 on: September 16, 2023, 06:02:14 AM »
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  • I don't often disagree with Matthew.
    But this post is not about justifying the practice of communion in the hand. In spite of what some on this thread want to believe, it has nothing to do with modernist, conciliar archeologism/antiquarianism.
    This is a simple discussion about historical liturgical practice for reception of the Blessed Sacrament, and how, in light of that, we consider it to be sacrilegious today for unconsecrated hands to touch the sacred host.
    The Catholic has nothing to fear from truth. It is indeed what every Catholic should stand for.
    Nor is this a crusade. Or, if it is a crusade for anything, it is that members on this forum accept one of the basic principles of logic: contra factum non fit argumentum.
    It seems clear to me that there has been a development in the Church's understanding and practice on this matter, such that what was not considered a sacrilege in the early years of the Church could certainly be considered so today in the context of our current understanding and legislation. That should not be offensive to pious ears!

    Well said.

    Facts is facts, as they say. And they prick, and they, like truth, often become an enemy.


    Quote
    Galatians 4:16 -  Am I then become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?

    And he continues:


    Quote
    Galatians 4:17 -  They are zealous in your regard not well: but they would exclude you, that you might be zealous for them.

    Hmmm.



    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Commuion in the hand
    « Reply #81 on: September 16, 2023, 08:16:03 AM »
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  • Why some people can't hear the truth:


    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline C8Trad

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    Re: Commuion in the hand
    « Reply #82 on: September 16, 2023, 09:28:19 AM »
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  • One thing is obvious however, “Pope” Michael had more of a claim to the papal office than Bergoglio since Michael at least seemed to profess the Catholic faith while Bergoglio does not.

    Why in the world would you assume that  “Pope Michael” professed the Catholic faith?   And schismatics can’t be elected pope.

    But I bet you don’t believe Pope Michael was a schismatic.  I bet you have embraced the Protestant heresy that the church consists of all those who profess the true faith, regardless of what sect they belong to, right?  Therefore, since you think Pope Michael professed the true faith, you think he was a member of the church, and not a schismatic.   


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Commuion in the hand
    « Reply #83 on: September 16, 2023, 09:59:22 AM »
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  • Why in the world would you assume that  “Pope Michael” professed the Catholic faith?  And schismatics can’t be elected pope.

    But I bet you don’t believe Pope Michael was a schismatic.  I bet you have embraced the Protestant heresy that the church consists of all those who profess the true faith, regardless of what sect they belong to, right?  Therefore, since you think Pope Michael professed the true faith, you think he was a member of the church, and not a schismatic. 

    So here we have Salza-ism where material membership trumps profession of the True Faith.  This is where Salza claims that Joe Biden is a Catholic in good standing, while Archbishop Lefebvre was a non-Catholic schismatic and outside the Church.

    Fallacy:  petitio principii, Begging the Question, assumes that the Conciliar Church is the Catholic Church

    Distinguo: (something Salza doesn't understand)

    Someone can belong to the Catholic Church formally even if they're materially in error about where the Church happens to be.  St. Vincent Ferrer was subject to an Antipope, but he was never formally outside the Church, since his formal intent was to be subject to the legitimate Pope and to belong to the Catholic Church.  Material Error.  Some individual can start attending Greek Orthodox liturgies and even register for the parish, being unaware that Greek Orthodox is not a Catholic Eastern Rite.  This too would be Material Error based on ignorance.  Someone who is baptized by schismatics remains formally within the Catholic Church even while remaining materially in the Greek Orthodox Church (until reaching the age of reason).

    So, yes, absolutely, profession of the True Faith and the formal intent to be subject to the Holy Father and within the Catholic Church trumps any material error regarding where the Church happens to be, especially during a time of confusion, such as the Great Western Schism or this horrific crisis.

    But tax attorney Salza, formerly(?) a Freemason (while still accepting awards from Masonic organizations) with zero training in theology or scholastic philosophy and logic or even Canon Law, doesn't understand this, and understands only letter-of-the-law legalism, kindof like the Pharisees.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Commuion in the hand
    « Reply #84 on: September 16, 2023, 10:55:19 AM »
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  • So here we have Salza-ism where material membership trumps profession of the True Faith.  This is where Salza claims that Joe Biden is a Catholic in good standing, while Archbishop Lefebvre was a non-Catholic schismatic and outside the Church.

    Fallacy:  petitio principii, Begging the Question, assumes that the Conciliar Church is the Catholic Church

    Distinguo: (something Salza doesn't understand)

    Someone can belong to the Catholic Church formally even if they're materially in error about where the Church happens to be.  St. Vincent Ferrer was subject to an Antipope, but he was never formally outside the Church, since his formal intent was to be subject to the legitimate Pope and to belong to the Catholic Church.  Material Error.  Some individual can start attending Greek Orthodox liturgies and even register for the parish, being unaware that Greek Orthodox is not a Catholic Eastern Rite.  This too would be Material Error based on ignorance.  Someone who is baptized by schismatics remains formally within the Catholic Church even while remaining materially in the Greek Orthodox Church (until reaching the age of reason).

    So, yes, absolutely, profession of the True Faith and the formal intent to be subject to the Holy Father and within the Catholic Church trumps any material error regarding where the Church happens to be, especially during a time of confusion, such as the Great Western Schism or this horrific crisis.

    But tax attorney Salza, formerly(?) a Freemason (while still accepting awards from Masonic organizations) with zero training in theology or scholastic philosophy and logic or even Canon Law, doesn't understand this, and understands only letter-of-the-law legalism, kindof like the Pharisees.

    How can he be Salza if he is me?

    :jester:
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Commuion in the hand
    « Reply #85 on: September 16, 2023, 11:13:57 AM »
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  • If you want to make CI a fake “Catholic” forum, where every bizarre theory is welcome, but the truth is looked upon with suspicion, I’d put that back in front of you for further reflection.

    Interesting you consider yourself a "truth crusader" when it comes to the historical truth about Communion in the Hand, but you're against believing in "conspiracy theories" even when they all turn out to be true?

    My point was that there are SO many truths that need preaching from the housetops in 2023 -- and yet you choose to talk about Communion in the Hand? What a curious truth to make Trad Catholic enemies over. Why not just drop it? What bad would happen? The devil might convince you otherwise, but trust me, NO EVIL WOULD COME OF IT.

    Not a single one of your opponents is going to practice that abominable behavior. We are all firmly against CiTH here. So WHO CARES if it was practiced in the Early Church 1%, 50%, or 100% of places? The CHURCH DID AWAY WITH IT, AND FOR GOOD REASON. And it's a mortal sin of sacrilege today in 2023, which is the only time period ANY OF US can visit right now. So why the academic discussion, especially when it's causing so much strife and bad blood between Trad Catholics, even old friends?

    Why lose friends over a discussion like "how many angels can fit on the head of a pin"?

    Do you not smell the sulfur of satan? I do.

    P.S. I will repeat: I have no idea what the truth of the matter is, and in this specific area I DON'T CARE. IT DOESN'T MATTER. NOT ONE BIT. It's the most insignificant, ignorable, useless truth there is. I'm not questioning your truth, I'm questioning your choice of how you're spending your time and effort. Some crusade against Public School, pornography, cнιℓd тrαffιcking, the evils of vaccines, government overreach, Modernism, debt money, the JQ. There are a thousand better causes than "I'm gonna teach these Trads the historical truth about Communion in the Hand!"

    I can't think of a good reason. Actually, I can think of just ONE reason: if it turns out to be widespread (true or not, I don't care) it *would* make the Novus Ordo, and the Conciliar Church, one iota less odious. Bishop Fellay and the 30% of pro-Conciliar neo-SSPX priests would like that. I'm not saying that's YOUR motivation, but it's TRUE. And you love what is true, right?

    Are you telling me it would disappoint the pro-Conciliar faction if it turned out that CitH was never practiced? No, they'd prefer that it WAS practiced. Like I said: it makes their merger with Rome just 1% more palatable. Let's be honest here.

    Like I said: I'm NOT accusing you of that being your motivation here. But it's the only reason I can think of, why someone would prioritize THIS particular truth (out of tens of thousands of truths you could be talking about).
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    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Commuion in the hand
    « Reply #86 on: September 16, 2023, 11:22:17 AM »
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  • I'm locking this thread. Someone's gotta stop the ____ing devil. I guess it has to be me.
    Want to say "thank you"? 
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