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Author Topic: Answering Objections to the Sedevacantist Position  (Read 3129 times)

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Offline Centroamerica

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Answering Objections to the Sedevacantist Position
« on: January 01, 2024, 07:09:01 AM »
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  • Objection 1: Pope Pius XII lifted all ecclesiastical penalties during the conclave to elect the pope. So even if the Vatican 2 popes were heretics before their elections, they would still be validly elected.
    Answer: Heretics and schismatics are barred by DIVINE LAW from the election to the Papal Office. Pope Pius XII lifted ecclesiastical penalties. He did not, would not, could not dispense from Divine Law. 
    Proof:
    A. Institutiones Iuris Canonici [1950]
    B. Institutiones Iuris Canonici [1921]
    C. cuм Ex Apostolatus Pope Paul IV
    D. Institutiones Iuris Canonici [1921]
    We conclude logically that religion can give an efficacious and truly realistic answer to the great modern problems only if it is a religion that is profoundly lived, not simply a superficial and cheap religion made up of some vocal prayers and some ceremonies...

    Offline Centroamerica

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    Re: Answering Objections to the Sedevacantist Position
    « Reply #1 on: January 01, 2024, 07:14:39 AM »
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  • Objection 2: Vatican 1 taught that St. Peter has perpetual successors; therefore, long vacancies in the See of Peter are not possible.
    Answer: Now where does the Church determine how long a vacancy may exist in the See of Peter. Between the death of Pope Clement IV (Nov 29,1268) and the election of Pope Gregory X (Sept 1, 1271), there was an interregnum of nearly three years. During the Western Schism, there were three claimants to the See of Peter; theologians teach that even if none of them were pope, that would not be against the promise of Christ or the teaching of perpetual successors. 
    Proof:
    A. Institutiones Theologiae Fundamentalis [1929]
    B. The Relations of the Church to Society [1882]. 
    C. The Catholic’s Ready Answer [1915]
    D. The Defense of the Catholic Church [1927]
    We conclude logically that religion can give an efficacious and truly realistic answer to the great modern problems only if it is a religion that is profoundly lived, not simply a superficial and cheap religion made up of some vocal prayers and some ceremonies...


    Offline Centroamerica

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    Re: Answering Objections to the Sedevacantist Position
    « Reply #2 on: January 01, 2024, 07:19:31 AM »
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  • Objection 3: If all the Vatican 2 popes were invalid, then there would be no cardinals to elect a future pope. Thus the papacy would come to an end which is impossible. 
    Answer: During the Western schism, three men claimed to be pope (the true pope in Rome, one in Avignon and one in Pisa). In order to heal the nearly forty-year schism, the Council of Constance determined that with all the cardinals, delegates from each country would participate in the papal election (Pope Martin V was elected). Theologians teach that in doubt of or absence of cardinals, THE CHURCH HAS THE RIGHT TO CHOOSE ITS HEAD.
    Proof
    A. De Potestate Ecclesiae
    B. De Comparatione Auctoritatis Papae et Concilii
    C. De Ecclesia Christi
    D. The Church of the Incarnate Word
    We conclude logically that religion can give an efficacious and truly realistic answer to the great modern problems only if it is a religion that is profoundly lived, not simply a superficial and cheap religion made up of some vocal prayers and some ceremonies...

    Offline Centroamerica

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    Re: Answering Objections to the Sedevacantist Position
    « Reply #3 on: January 01, 2024, 07:24:23 AM »
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  • Objection 4: Even if a pope fell into heresy, he would remain pope until the Church declared him a heretic and no longer pope.

    Answer: Pope Paul IV, in cuм Ex Apostolatus, Pope Innocent III in Si Papa, and theologians teach that a heretical pope is disposed by God. 

    Proof:
    A. Bull: cuм Ex Apostolatus 
    B. Si Papa, Pope Innocent III
    C. Institutiones Iuri Canonicii [1950]
    D. St. Robert Bellarmine
    E. St. Antoninus
    F. St. Francis de Sales
    G. Canon Law [1943], Wernz-Vidal
    H. Introductio in Codicem
    I. Epitome Iuris Canonicii
    We conclude logically that religion can give an efficacious and truly realistic answer to the great modern problems only if it is a religion that is profoundly lived, not simply a superficial and cheap religion made up of some vocal prayers and some ceremonies...

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Answering Objections to the Sedevacantist Position
    « Reply #4 on: January 01, 2024, 07:25:32 AM »
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  • Great series of posts! 
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?


    Offline Centroamerica

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    Re: Answering Objections to the Sedevacantist Position
    « Reply #5 on: January 01, 2024, 07:28:15 AM »
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  • Objection 5: The Vatican 2 Popes are not guilty of formal heresy, but onlu of material heresy; therefore, they wouod not lose their office. 

    Answer: The distinction between material and formal heresy is not considered in this issue of the loss of papacy by one who falls into heresy. Canon law and theologians only refer to public or manifest heresy. 

    Proof:
    A. Canon Law 188.4
    B. St. Robert Bellarmine
    C. Canon Law [1943] 
    D. Introductio in Codicem
    E. Institutiones Iuris Canonicii [1950]
    We conclude logically that religion can give an efficacious and truly realistic answer to the great modern problems only if it is a religion that is profoundly lived, not simply a superficial and cheap religion made up of some vocal prayers and some ceremonies...

    Offline Centroamerica

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    Re: Answering Objections to the Sedevacantist Position
    « Reply #6 on: January 01, 2024, 07:30:55 AM »
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  • Obviously, under “proofs”, I left out the citations, as that would have made these posts much lengthier and time consuming. In discussion, I could post any quotes necessary. 

    The video conference from Bishop Pivarunas discussing this booklet is even better than the booklet itself. Here is that link to that video. 

    https://youtu.be/vSkwPiqyv-k?si=nR34R9S0nIBvdV-L

    We conclude logically that religion can give an efficacious and truly realistic answer to the great modern problems only if it is a religion that is profoundly lived, not simply a superficial and cheap religion made up of some vocal prayers and some ceremonies...

    Offline Hank Igitur

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    Re: Answering Objections to the Sedevacantist Position
    « Reply #7 on: January 01, 2024, 11:49:11 AM »
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  • Bishop Mark Pivarunas' CMRI pamphlet Answering Objections To The Sedevacantist Position was one of the very first docuмents I read that thoroughly convinced me that the R&R were completely wrong in their response to the Church crisis. A 2006 video debate between sede layman John Lane and non-sede layman Robert Sungenis was also helpful in my discovery of the truth of the Sede Position since Mr. Lane wiped the floor with Mr. Sungenis and yet he did it in a very civil manor.   


    Offline DustyActual

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    Re: Answering Objections to the Sedevacantist Position
    « Reply #8 on: January 01, 2024, 02:52:39 PM »
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  • Objection 1: Pope Pius XII lifted all ecclesiastical penalties during the conclave to elect the pope. So even if the Vatican 2 popes were heretics before their elections, they would still be validly elected.
    Answer: Heretics and schismatics are barred by DIVINE LAW from the election to the Papal Office. Pope Pius XII lifted ecclesiastical penalties. He did not, would not, could not dispense from Divine Law.
    Proof:
    A. Institutiones Iuris Canonici [1950]
    B. Institutiones Iuris Canonici [1921]
    C. cuм Ex Apostolatus Pope Paul IV
    D. Institutiones Iuris Canonici [1921]
    I have always heard from totalist sedevacantists that divine law prevents a heretic from becoming Pope, but which divine law are they referring to?
    Go to Jesus through Our Lady.

    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: Answering Objections to the Sedevacantist Position
    « Reply #9 on: January 01, 2024, 03:14:03 PM »
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  • I have always heard from totalist sedevacantists that divine law prevents a heretic from becoming Pope, but which divine law are they referring to?

    The public sin of manifest formal heresy per se separates the heretic from the Church.

    Offline Centroamerica

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    Re: Answering Objections to the Sedevacantist Position
    « Reply #10 on: January 01, 2024, 03:20:26 PM »
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  • I have always heard from totalist sedevacantists that divine law prevents a heretic from becoming Pope, but which divine law are they referring to?
    This is part of the reason why the crisis is the greatest crisis the Church has ever seen. The root of the crisis has and will always be poor catechetics. Many do not even know what a Catholic is. What does it mean to be a Catholic. To be Catholic (apart from being baptized) means that you profess and believe all the Divine truths of the Catholic religion. It means that if one were to deny even one of those Divinely revealed truths, they would cease to be Catholic. And once one ceases to believe in the Catholic Faith (no longer being Catholic) one cannot be the spiritual leader and head of Catholics. DIVINE LAW. We are not talking about the decalogue here. We are talking about divinely revealed Truths. If one were to assert that a non-Catholic and non-member of the Catholic Church could be its spiritual leader and Vicar of Christ, the result would be madness. You would see the fruition of a masonic religion based on indifference and feel good policies. Essentially, you would have Francis. 
    We conclude logically that religion can give an efficacious and truly realistic answer to the great modern problems only if it is a religion that is profoundly lived, not simply a superficial and cheap religion made up of some vocal prayers and some ceremonies...


    Offline Centroamerica

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    Re: Answering Objections to the Sedevacantist Position
    « Reply #11 on: January 01, 2024, 05:50:27 PM »
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  • I have always heard from totalist sedevacantists that divine law prevents a heretic from becoming Pope, but which divine law are they referring to?
    A. Institutiones Iuris Canonici [1950], Coronata
    -“Appointment to the Office of the primacy- What is required by DIVINE LAW for this appointment …Also required for validity is that the one elected be a member of the Church; hence, heretics and apostates (at least public ones) are excluded…
    B. Institutiones Iuris Canonici [1921], Marato
    ”Heretics and schismatics are barred from the Supreme Pontificate by the Divine Law itself, because, although by Divine Law they are not considered incapable of participating in a certain type of ecclesiastical jurisdiction, nevertheless, they must certainly be regarded as excluded from occupying the throne of the Apostolic See, which is the infallible teacher of the truth if the faith and the center of ecclesiastical unity.”
    We conclude logically that religion can give an efficacious and truly realistic answer to the great modern problems only if it is a religion that is profoundly lived, not simply a superficial and cheap religion made up of some vocal prayers and some ceremonies...

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Answering Objections to the Sedevacantist Position
    « Reply #12 on: January 01, 2024, 07:18:11 PM »
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  • I have always heard from totalist sedevacantists that divine law prevents a heretic from becoming Pope, but which divine law are they referring to?

    By divine law, they're referring to simple definitions and ontologies, i.e. someone who's not a member of a body cannot be its head.  St. Robert Bellarmine characterizes the fact that a manifest heretic cannot be pope as rooted in divine law.  You do realize, right?, that divine law doesn't mean that God descended from Heaven and issued some legislation, but that some principle derives from revelation, e.g., in this case, the very nature of the Church.

    Offline DustyActual

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    Re: Answering Objections to the Sedevacantist Position
    « Reply #13 on: January 01, 2024, 10:07:38 PM »
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  • By divine law, they're referring to simple definitions and ontologies, i.e. someone who's not a member of a body cannot be its head.  St. Robert Bellarmine characterizes the fact that a manifest heretic cannot be pope as rooted in divine law.  You do realize, right?, that divine law doesn't mean that God descended from Heaven and issued some legislation, but that some principle derives from revelation, e.g., in this case, the very nature of the Church.
    I had a feeling that was the case. Thanks for clearing it up.
    Go to Jesus through Our Lady.

    Offline Matthew

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