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Author Topic: Fr. Paul Robinson: Consent to heresy to avoid schism?  (Read 2244 times)

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Offline Angelus

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Fr. Paul Robinson: Consent to heresy to avoid schism?
« on: January 02, 2024, 04:10:09 PM »
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  • https://hcs.fsspx.org/en/news-events/news/unity-faith-pope-francis-canonical-recognition-sspx-30140


    Quote
    The first fact to be noted about the position above is that it runs contrary to the spirit informing the entire history of the SSPX. Let us take a brief review of that history to see that such is the case.

    It would not seem too difficult to establish that Pope Paul VI had strong Modernist tendencies. Yet the SSPX was canonically erected under the pontificate of Paul VI and was recognized as a pious union from 1970-75. Thus, at least in the mind of the Archbishop, it cannot be wrong, under all circuмstances, to collaborate with a Modernist Pope to the extent of having a canonical structure under him.

    The events leading up to 1988 are perhaps even more instructive on this score. When one understands that Archbishop Lefebvre was waiting for signs that he should consecrate bishops and that after receiving two such signs, in the form of Modernist scandals on the part of Rome, he then went to Rome seeking canonical recognition, one should draw the general principle: Modernist scandals, of themselves, are not an obstacle to receiving canonical recognition at the hands of those who have perpetrated those scandals.

    At the same time, the Archbishop withdrew his signature to the protocol that was to provide a canonical structure, because he lost trust in those with whom he was negotiating. After the trying ordeal was over, he acknowledged that a greater traditionalism on the part of the Romans—in their doctrine—would provide solid grounds for trust. Thus, for him, evaluating the faith of the Pope was grounds for evaluating the acceptance of canonical recognition—not as to whether it is possible, but rather whether it is prudent. If the Pope can be trusted to allow the SSPX to remain “as is” and exercise its ministry—the “experiment of Tradition”—with sufficient autonomy, then canonical recognition is a good for the Church and should be accepted.

    This same line has been followed by the SSPX in its 21st century dealings with the Roman hierarchy. The SSPX has never gone to Rome, asking that the Pope and the hierarchy convert to traditionalism before the possibility of canonical recognition even be considered. It has never demanded a profession of faith by the Pope, a recantation of heresy, a syllabus of errors, or any such. To do so would imply that the SSPX was the superior and the Pope the inferior, that it was a question of the Pope receiving legal recognition from the SSPX rather than the other way around. In short, it would imply a schismatic spirit.

    The SSPX has rather only made demands that correspond to its proper position, especially the demand to be left “as is”. It attempted to lay down in the General Chapter of 2012 six conditions—none of which concerned the Pope’s faith—to make sure that it would remain intact and sufficiently autonomous under a hypothetical canonical recognition.

    This is not to say that members of the SSPX, even very high up, have not been at times tempted to hold that the true spirit of the Archbishop and so of the SSPX demands that the Pope profess doctrinal traditionalism before there can be any practical recognition. That is, after all, the stance of that loose conglomeration of ex-SSPX priests that goes under the name of “The Resistance” and which has a former SSPX bishop as one of its members.

    What is being affirmed here is that the “strict unity of faith before canonical recognition” position has never, at any time, been the official position of the SSPX, neither in the time of the Archbishop nor since his death.

    For Fr. Robinson, "Traditionalism" and "Modernism" are simply two ways of being Catholic and can co-exist side by side. The Modernists have their version of "the Faith." And the "Traditionalists" have their version of "the Faith." Since "the Pope" is the "superior," it would be "schismatic" to demand that he repent of heresy before submitting to him as the leader of the Church.

    This is complete insanity. It is Relativism. And it is definitely not the law defined in Canons 188.4 and 2314, which state that a heretic is ipso facto outside the Church and such a one automatically loses his authority to govern (Canons 2263 and 2264).


    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Fr. Paul Robinson: Consent to heresy to avoid schism?
    « Reply #1 on: January 02, 2024, 04:21:39 PM »
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  • Since "the Pope" is the "superior," it would be "schismatic" to demand that he repent of heresy before submitting to him as the leader of the Church.

    But the "Pope", their superior, is demanding conversion from the SSPX before admitting them into communion.  It also "implies a schismatic spirit" to refuse these demands from their superior.


    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Fr. Paul Robinson: Consent to heresy to avoid schism?
    « Reply #2 on: January 02, 2024, 04:26:42 PM »
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  • Father Paul Robinson:
    Quote
    To this day, candidates to major orders in the SSPX must affirm before the Blessed Sacrament the night before their ordination that the Pope is the Pope.

    That is such an absurd proposition: "the Pope is the Pope."  Any sedevacantist affirm before the Blessed Sacrament that the Pope is the Pope.  After all, it's a tautology.  A dog is a dog.  A cat is a cat.  Of course the Pope is the Pope.  Jorge Bergoglio, on the other hand, is not.

    How absurd that they force ordinands to affirm before the Blessed Sacrament that Jorge is the Pope.  At the very least, there are some doubts and questions about whether that is in fact true (even if you're not an SV).

    From there he proceeds to the Second Principle:
    Quote
    The second principle is that Pope Francis is Pope of the Catholic Church. What this means is that he holds the highest office in an institution established by Our Lord Jesus Christ. As such, he has not decided and cannot decide the finality of that institution. The Church is the Church regardless of his personal feeling about it. This is perhaps a rare instance when it would be proper for him to say, “Who am I to judge?”

    How is being "Pope of the Catholic Church" any different than than just being "Pope"?  And the rest of this paragraph is absolutely incoherent and incomprehensible?  "The Church is the Church" despite Jorge's "personal feeling" about it?  What does that mean?  We're talking about "feeling" and not some intellectual affirmation?  If Jorge doesn't "personally feel" that the Church is the Church, then in what sense could he be called a Catholic at all?

    SSPX promote this man as one of their leading intellectuals?

    Offline Angelus

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    Re: Fr. Paul Robinson: Consent to heresy to avoid schism?
    « Reply #3 on: January 02, 2024, 04:33:14 PM »
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  • But the "Pope", their superior, is demanding conversion from the SSPX before admitting them into communion.  It also "implies a schismatic spirit" to refuse these demands from their superior.

    Yes, the "conversion" that is required of the Neo-SSPX is that of a conversion to relativism while abandoning actual Catholicism which teaches the ONE TRUE FAITH.

    In other words, the SSPX embraces indifferentism with regard to what they themselves call "Modernism." They identify "the Pope" as a "heretic" of the "Modernist" variety. But, no worries, he's still "the Pope" and anyone who does not "submit" to him is a "schismatic."

    This is the theater of the absurd. And Fr. Robinson is its Shakespeare.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Fr. Paul Robinson: Consent to heresy to avoid schism?
    « Reply #4 on: January 02, 2024, 04:47:49 PM »
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  • Quote
    Thirdly and finally, the members of the SSPX as well as its faithful are already members of the real society of the Catholic Church over which Pope Francis is the visible head. In other words, they have a real unity with Pope Francis—not with Pope Francis in his ‘personal magisterium’, but with Pope Francis as Pope. They acknowledge him to be the governing head of the Church, they put his picture in their chapels, they mention him by name at Mass and Benediction.


    :laugh1: :laugh2:

    Apart from the absurdity of appealing to chapels in the vestibule as meaning something, what is this new term "personal magisterium" that he invents out of thin air?

    "Personal Magisterium" must be some term to capture the Papal Magisterium that SSPX don't agree with.

    Normally the distinction is between a "Private Doctor" (private teacher) and the "Papal Magisterium", but he's blending the two here, whereas the term "Magisterium" is a technical term for precisely when the Pope is teaching as Pope and not just delivering his personal musings on a subject.


    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Fr. Paul Robinson: Consent to heresy to avoid schism?
    « Reply #5 on: January 02, 2024, 04:55:53 PM »
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  • You'll note that the notorious manifest Modernist Fr. Paul Robinson never actually answers the main topic of the article, "Unity of Faith with Pope [sic] Francis".

    In fact, he simple dismisses it as a non-question.
    Quote
    Those who see that question as being solely “What is the faith of the Pope?” seem to mistake the Pope for the Church, falling into a certain species of papalotry.

    Nice try.  Well, actually, a very pathetic try.

    It's really a very simple question, Fr. Robinson.  Does Jorge Bergoglio have the same faith that you do?  Yes or no?  You can claim Yes, and you'd at least be answering the question (whether we agree with it or not), but to dismiss the question of whether Bergoglio has the Catholic faith as the SSPX as some kind of "papalotry" when it's a CORE QUESTION is the height of logical absurdity and duplicity.

    What on earth does the question of whether Jorge has the Catholic faith have to do with "papalotry".  R&R accuse SVs of papalotry for other reasons, e.g. their understanding of infallibility, but the core question of whether there's unity of faith with "Pope" Francis has nothing to do with any of that dispute.

    And I'm guessing that Robison knows that quite well and that this is just a meandering distraction designed to avoid the question on purpose.  See, Unity is one of the Notes of the Catholic Church, unity of faith and governance.  Do you have unity of faith with Bergoglio?  He NEVER ANSWERS THE QUESTION like a typical politician attempting to misdirect from it.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Fr. Paul Robinson: Consent to heresy to avoid schism?
    « Reply #6 on: January 02, 2024, 05:00:38 PM »
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  • Here's the Intro to the Article:

    Quote
    In this article, Fr Paul Robinson addresses the question of whether a Pope must have the faith of a traditionalist for it to be right for the SSPX to receive canonical recognition from him.


    What is "the faith of a traditionlist" as opposed to the Catholic faith, and does Bergoglio have this same faith?

    This preface needs to be edited for accuracy:

    In this article, Fr Paul Robinson addressesdodges the question of whether a Pope must have the Catholic faith of a traditionalist for it to be right for the SSPX to receive canonical recognition from him.

    Offline Angelus

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    Re: Fr. Paul Robinson: Consent to heresy to avoid schism?
    « Reply #7 on: January 02, 2024, 05:10:53 PM »
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  • Fr. Robinson, of the Society of St. Pius X, says that a Catholic is required submission to a Modernist heretic, or he will be in "schism."

    Pope St. Pius X says in Pascendi that "modernism is the synthesis of all heresies" and "their system means the destruction not of the Catholic religion alone but of all religion."


    Quote
    39. It may be, Venerable Brethren, that some may think We have dwelt too long on this exposition of the doctrines of the Modernists. But it was necessary, both in order to refute their customary charge that We do not understand their ideas, and to show that their system does not consist in scattered and unconnected theories but in a perfectly organised body, all the parts of which are solidly joined so that it is not possible to admit one without admitting all. For this reason, too, We have had to give this exposition a somewhat didactic form and not to shrink from employing certain uncouth terms in use among the Modernists. And now, can anybody who takes a survey of the whole system be surprised that We should define it as the synthesis of all heresies? Were one to attempt the task of collecting together all the errors that have been broached against the faith and to concentrate the sap and substance of them all into one, he could not better succeed than the Modernists have done. Nay, they have done more than this, for, as we have already intimated, their system means the destruction not of the Catholic religion alone but of all religion. With good reason do the rationalists applaud them, for the most sincere and the frankest among the rationalists warmly welcome the modernists as their most valuable allies.


    So, why is this so hard for traditional Catholics? Why can't they understand that by calling a Modernist heretic (their own words) "the Pope," makes a mockery of the Catholic Faith? After all, if a Modernist heretic can be the Pope, why not a Buddhist or a Lutheran or a Gnostic. Heck, as long as he was "elected" and "universally and peacefully accepted," they say WE must submit to him, otherwise WE are "outside the Church." He and his heretic followers are "inside the Church," while those who hold the True Faith and receive the True Sacraments are "outside the Church?" 

    Does that logic make sense to anyone on this forum? R&R?


    Offline Seraphina

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    Re: Fr. Paul Robinson: Consent to heresy to avoid schism?
    « Reply #8 on: January 02, 2024, 05:15:54 PM »
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  • I had rather be falsely branded a schismatic in men’s eyes than truly a hypocrite and liar by God.

    Rome and the pope can stuff that in their pipe and smoke it.       💨 🔥 🚬 :incense:

    Offline Angelus

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    Re: Fr. Paul Robinson: Consent to heresy to avoid schism?
    « Reply #9 on: January 02, 2024, 05:44:40 PM »
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  • Canon 1324

    It is not enough to avoid heretical depravity, but also those errors should be diligently fled that more or less approach [heresy]; 

    Canon 1325

    §1. The faithful of Christ are bound to profess their faith whenever silence, evasiveness, or manner of acting encompasses an implied denial of faith, contempt for religion, injury to God or scandal for the neighbor.


    The Church requires, in its Canon Law, that the faithful avoid heretics and profess the faith against those who buddy up to heretics. To do otherwise implies a "denial of faith, etc." If you are calling a Modernist heretic your "Holy Father" and singing praises to "Francisco" during the Tu Es Petrus hymn at your local SSPX chapel you are failing to "profess the faith." 

    This way of behaving scandalizes "the neighbor." It tells them that the Catholic religion is absurd because its "leader" can be a non-Catholic destroyer of his own Church.


    Offline Angelus

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    Re: Fr. Paul Robinson: Consent to heresy to avoid schism?
    « Reply #10 on: January 02, 2024, 06:21:29 PM »
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  • Here's a Novus Ordo "priest" in Italy doing what some trad priests refuse to do. Like a man, he stands up for the Catholic faith against a heretical usurper of the papacy.

    https://www.gloria.tv/post/SWovXsZSFnPi1tW6HuiN9Fgny

    Excommunication is Back! Priest Calls Francis a “Usurper”


    Don Ramon Guidetti, parish priest of San Ranieri in Guasticce, on the Tuscan coast, has been "excommunicated" by Bishop Simone Giusti of Livorno, Italy, for telling his flock that Francis "is not the Pope, he's an usurper".

    Monsignor Giusti issued the decree of excommunication on 2 January.

    The priest made his remarks in a sermon on 31 December. After the "excommunication", Guidetti said that he was proud to be "out of this Church, which is a tyranny".

    In the good old days, saying similar things about John Paul II and Benedict XVI would have helped a priest advance in their careers. What a circus!


    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Fr. Paul Robinson: Consent to heresy to avoid schism?
    « Reply #11 on: January 02, 2024, 06:27:50 PM »
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  • Here's a Novus Ordo "priest" in Italy doing what some trad priests refuse to do. Like a man, he stands up for the Catholic faith against a heretical usurper of the papacy.

    https://www.gloria.tv/post/SWovXsZSFnPi1tW6HuiN9Fgny

    Excommunication is Back! Priest Calls Francis a “Usurper”

    Hilarious comment below the main link:
    Quote
    This good priest is the first of many who will rise up against heretic,apostate Pope Francis. The more, the better. THey can then perhaps continue as priests in the SSPX, or found new religious Orders regardless of Vatican whinning threats against them. THe more they rise up and tell the truth about Pope Francis to their flocks and turn them against him, the better,

    Yeah, right, as if the SSPX would ever welcome priests who rightly call Bergoglio a heretic and apostate.  SSPX would excommunicate these priests themselves if they could ... in fact, as Fr. Robinson tells us, those who wish to be ordained in SSPX are forced/required to swear allegiance to Jorge before the tabernacle.

    Offline ElwinRansom1970

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    Re: Fr. Paul Robinson: Consent to heresy to avoid schism?
    « Reply #12 on: January 03, 2024, 06:43:33 AM »
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  • This is the theater of the absurd. And Fr. Robinson is its Shakespeare.
    Fr. Robinson is the Alfred Jarry of this theatre!

    https://www.britannica.com/biography/Alfred-Jarry
    "I distrust every idea that does not seem obsolete and grotesque to my contemporaries."
    Nicolás Gómez Dávila

    Offline TheRealMcCoy

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    Re: Fr. Paul Robinson: Consent to heresy to avoid schism?
    « Reply #13 on: January 03, 2024, 07:24:22 AM »
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  • in fact, as Fr. Robinson tells us, those who wish to be ordained in SSPX are forced/required to swear allegiance to Jorge before the tabernacle.
    kinda like this:


    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Fr. Paul Robinson: Consent to heresy to avoid schism?
    « Reply #14 on: January 03, 2024, 08:14:02 AM »
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