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Author Topic: Challenge for SVs  (Read 9302 times)

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Offline 2Vermont

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Re: Challenge for SVs
« Reply #15 on: March 04, 2024, 06:35:16 PM »
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    • After waking up at 130 AM and travelling all day I'm probably not firing on all cylinders, so forgive me if I'm completely off base.  

    But I didn't think Father Cekada thought this of all V2 popes but only Bergoglio.  If that is incorrect, then maybe the thinking is along St Bellarmines opinion that popes can not fall into heresy.  So if they did, then they couldn't have ever been pope to begin with.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Challenge for SVs
    « Reply #16 on: March 04, 2024, 06:44:11 PM »
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    • Quote from: Yeti on March 04, 2024, 04:49:56 PM
    This is an excellent question. I didn't have a good answer to this until recently, when I read a fascinating book called "The Counterlife of a Pope" by a man who was one of the Noble Guard under Roncalli.

    Yes, I've read Nikita Roncalli, and that's why I said that you could probably dig up more on Roncalli than, say, Montini.  I've never seen any Montini statements before his purported election.  But even in the case of Roncalli, I don't think he said anything obviously heretical, where he approved of Communism in principle, but said lots of stuff about Communists, and much of it sounds 100% anecdotal, based on the veracity and/or accuracy of not only the author but of his sources.  Nothing about it was super public, where he had made public statements.  Apparently they were unknown to Pius XII, who elevated the guy to Cardinal.  Don't get me wrong, I find it compelling or at least the vast majority of it, but much of the evidence is still on the same quality as the evidence in favor of the Siri Thesis, no smoking gun.  And, if I recall, Nikita Roncalli relates an episode where Roncalli, on the way to the conclave, knew that he would be "elected" pope.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Challenge for SVs
    « Reply #17 on: March 04, 2024, 06:45:27 PM »
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    • Quote from: 2Vermont on March 04, 2024, 06:35:16 PM
    After waking up at 130 AM and travelling all day I'm probably not firing on all cylinders, so forgive me if I'm completely off base. 

    But I didn't think Father Cekada thought this of all V2 popes but only Bergoglio.  If that is incorrect, then maybe the thinking is along St Bellarmines opinion that popes can not fall into heresy.  So if they did, then they couldn't have ever been pope to begin with.

    Yes, I'm thinking that the Bellarmine "pious opinion" may be part of the motivation, but I'm not sure that this alone would persuade a Father Cekada.
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    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Challenge for SVs
    « Reply #18 on: March 04, 2024, 07:29:20 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on March 04, 2024, 11:52:40 AM
    So, as Father Cekada has said, most SVs have abandoned the position that Roncalli, Montini, et al. had "fallen" from the papacy, but instead believe that they were never popes to begin with.

    What is the evidence that Roncalli and Montini were manifest heretics before their respective "elections"?

    Roncalli was a Cardinal in good standing and Montini an Archbishop in good standing under Pius XII.  Sure, Roncalli was "suspect" of Modernism, but that suspicion was not enough to prevent him from being made a Cardinal by Pius XII.


    I’m not so sure you are correct on this. Do you have a reference? I was under the impression that Father Cekada only held this position with regard to Bergoglio or possibly Ratzinger.
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    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline EWPJ

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    Re: Challenge for SVs
    « Reply #19 on: March 04, 2024, 11:04:15 PM »
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    • I remember watching this many years ago...



    Dimonds did an expose of Paul VI and I remember them doing a similar expose on John XXIII but I can't find it on their JuTube channel.  
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    Offline AnthonyPadua

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    Re: Challenge for SVs
    « Reply #20 on: March 05, 2024, 01:50:11 AM »
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    • Quote from: EWPJ on March 04, 2024, 11:04:15 PM
    I remember watching this many years ago...



    Dimonds did an expose of Paul VI and I remember them doing a similar expose on John XXIII but I can't find it on their JuTube channel. 
    https://schismatic-home-aloner.com/anti-pope-francis-vatican-ii-antipopes/

    You might find it in here, i couldn't find any videos in John 23s heresies but only videos that suggests he may be a freemason.
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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Challenge for SVs
    « Reply #21 on: March 05, 2024, 05:44:42 AM »
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    • Quote from: Quo vadis Domine on March 04, 2024, 07:29:20 PM

    I’m not so sure you are correct on this. Do you have a reference? I was under the impression that Father Cekada only held this position with regard to Bergoglio or possibly Ratzinger.
    Yes same here.  I don't think it was even Ratzinger...just Bergoglio.
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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Challenge for SVs
    « Reply #22 on: March 05, 2024, 05:48:28 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on March 04, 2024, 06:45:27 PM
    Yes, I'm thinking that the Bellarmine "pious opinion" may be part of the motivation, but I'm not sure that this alone would persuade a Father Cekada.
    I didn't think this thread was about persuading Fr Cekada of anything (may he RIP).  I thought you were asserting that he already stated he believed these V2 popes never had the papacy rather than lost the papacy. Then it appeared that the assumption was due to the belief that they fell into manifest heresy prior to election.
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    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Challenge for SVs
    « Reply #23 on: March 05, 2024, 06:07:34 AM »
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    • Quote from: 2Vermont on March 05, 2024, 05:44:42 AM
    Yes same here.  I don't think it was even Ratzinger...just Bergoglio.

    Maybe Ladislaus is gaslighting us! 😂
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    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Challenge for SVs
    « Reply #24 on: March 05, 2024, 06:16:43 AM »
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    • Quote from: Quo vadis Domine on March 05, 2024, 06:07:34 AM
    Maybe Ladislaus is gaslighting us! 😂
    I don't know what's going on here but I would like to see the support for Fr Cekada believing all of these men were never popes due to manifest heresy prior to election.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Challenge for SVs
    « Reply #25 on: March 05, 2024, 06:22:05 AM »
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    • Quote from: EWPJ on March 04, 2024, 11:04:15 PM
    I remember watching this many years ago...



    Dimonds did an expose of Paul VI and I remember them doing a similar expose on John XXIII but I can't find it on their JuTube channel. 

    Right, but these heresies are all dated to after Montini’s election, and the Brothers refer to the Siri Theory at the beginning of this video.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Challenge for SVs
    « Reply #26 on: March 05, 2024, 06:24:24 AM »
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    • Father Cekada did not qualify his opinion as referring to just Ratzinger and Bergoglio, and made it sound like it was a matter of principle.  When I have a chance, I’ll find the citation.  It’s in his “Dead on Arrival” refutation of Salza and Siscoe.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Challenge for SVs
    « Reply #27 on: March 05, 2024, 06:51:05 AM »
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    • Quote from: Quo vadis Domine on March 05, 2024, 06:07:34 AM
    Maybe Ladislaus is gaslighting us! 😂

    Nonsense.  I'm surprised that I know more about what Father Cekada has said than those who hang off his every word.



    5:17 - 5:45 ... Father Cekada categorically applies "the white-cassocked Conciliar heresiarchs" as a matter or principle or their general "argument", saying they were never true popes in the first place.  He could have said that they don't hold that it applies to "all" of the Conciliar papal claimants, just to some, but he made a categorical statement that made it sound like a matter of principle or argument.  He pushed aside a huge part of Salza & Siscoe as simply not applying, but he would have had to address it for the likes of the earlier Conciliar papal claimants even if it didn't apply to the current one.

    20:54 "A Zombie Argument" 

    21:32 -- "... sedevacantists no longer believe Bergoglio, Ratzinger, JP2 and the rest ever became true popes in the first place"

    There you have it.  Gaslighting, eh?

    In any case, if it didn't apply to Montini, Father was not entitled to sweep away the S&S argument because he'd still have to address it vis-a-vis Montini, but he brushed the entire thing off the table by simply saying they no longer believe they were ever true popes in the first place.

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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Challenge for SVs
    « Reply #28 on: March 05, 2024, 06:52:00 AM »
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    • So, then, back to the question, I've never seen anything that Montini said before Vatican II that was heretical.  In fact, I don't recall anything Montini ever said before Vatican II period.
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    Offline Yeti

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    Re: Challenge for SVs
    « Reply #29 on: March 05, 2024, 09:06:58 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on March 05, 2024, 06:52:00 AM
    So, then, back to the question, I've never seen anything that Montini said before Vatican II that was heretical.  In fact, I don't recall anything Montini ever said before Vatican II period.
    .

    I think you answered your own question. I have never seen a biography of Montini. I had never seen a biography of Roncalli until Bellegrande's book, and it was clear from his book that Roncalli was an open communist for his entire life. If someone wrote a biography of Montini, it seems likely the picture would be similar.

    Otherwise, we would have to say that these people's election to the papacy turned them from faithful Catholics into raging heretics, which is the opposite of Christ's promise to the Church. I don't see any way around this.
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