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Author Topic: Challenge for SVs  (Read 9318 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Challenge for SVs
« on: March 04, 2024, 11:52:40 AM »
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  • So, as Father Cekada has said, most SVs have abandoned the position that Roncalli, Montini, et al. had "fallen" from the papacy, but instead believe that they were never popes to begin with.

    What is the evidence that Roncalli and Montini were manifest heretics before their respective "elections"?

    Roncalli was a Cardinal in good standing and Montini an Archbishop in good standing under Pius XII.  Sure, Roncalli was "suspect" of Modernism, but that suspicion was not enough to prevent him from being made a Cardinal by Pius XII.

    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Re: Challenge for SVs
    « Reply #1 on: March 04, 2024, 01:00:21 PM »
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  • I don't think there's sufficient evidence to say Roncalli was an antipope. 
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Challenge for SVs
    « Reply #2 on: March 04, 2024, 01:36:08 PM »
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  • I don't think there's sufficient evidence to say Roncalli was an antipope.

    How about for Montini?  I think there's even less evidence that Montini was a manifest heretic prior to his election.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Challenge for SVs
    « Reply #3 on: March 04, 2024, 01:39:17 PM »
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  • Or, alternatively, do some of you reject Father Cekada's position that they were manifest heretics prior to their election?

    Offline Mr G

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    Re: Challenge for SVs
    « Reply #4 on: March 04, 2024, 01:56:29 PM »
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  • So, as Father Cekada has said, most SVs have abandoned the position that Roncalli, Montini, et al. had "fallen" from the papacy, but instead believe that they were never popes to begin with.

    What is the evidence that Roncalli and Montini were manifest heretics before their respective "elections"?

    Roncalli was a Cardinal in good standing and Montini an Archbishop in good standing under Pius XII.  Sure, Roncalli was "suspect" of Modernism, but that suspicion was not enough to prevent him from being made a Cardinal by Pius XII.
    Another way to word it, is "When was the heresy manifested publicly and pertinaciously?"  


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Challenge for SVs
    « Reply #5 on: March 04, 2024, 02:42:28 PM »
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  • Another way to word it, is "When was the heresy manifested publicly and pertinaciously?" 

    Right.  If, as per Father Cekada, Montini was never a legitimate Pope to begin with, then what evidence to do we have of manifest heresy before he was elected?  Or, if some disagree with Father Cekada, please explain why.

    Offline ElwinRansom1970

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    Re: Challenge for SVs
    « Reply #6 on: March 04, 2024, 02:48:30 PM »
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  • Or, alternatively, do some of you reject Father Cekada's position that they were manifest heretics prior to their election?
    I am unsure as to whether or not Roncalli defected from the Faith before or during his pontificate. Any manifest and pertinacious heresy is very hard to prove for him.

    In regards to Montini, I tend to believe that he defected from the Faith during his pontificate. When? There are several possible times with 1965, 68, or 69 being key possible years for manifest heresy.

    Luciani is also hard for manifest heresy.

    Wojtyła, Ratzinger, and Bergoglio are much easier for manifest heresy both prior and during their "pontificates".
    "I distrust every idea that does not seem obsolete and grotesque to my contemporaries."
    Nicolás Gómez Dávila

    Offline Gray2023

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    Re: Challenge for SVs
    « Reply #7 on: March 04, 2024, 02:54:27 PM »
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  • So, as Father Cekada has said, most SVs have abandoned the position that Roncalli, Montini, et al. had "fallen" from the papacy, but instead believe that they were never popes to begin with.

    What is the evidence that Roncalli and Montini were manifest heretics before their respective "elections"?

    Roncalli was a Cardinal in good standing and Montini an Archbishop in good standing under Pius XII.  Sure, Roncalli was "suspect" of Modernism, but that suspicion was not enough to prevent him from being made a Cardinal by Pius XII.
    Just curious.  What is the importance or motivation for trying to figure this out?
    Fatti Maschii, Parole Femine


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Challenge for SVs
    « Reply #8 on: March 04, 2024, 03:01:36 PM »
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  • Just curious.  What is the importance or motivation for trying to figure this out?

    Just something that rang a bell from something I was listening to and recalling Father Cekada having stated in his rebuttal to Salza & Siscoe that almost no SV believes that the V2 papal claimants "fell" from the papacy, but that they were never popes to begin with.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Challenge for SVs
    « Reply #9 on: March 04, 2024, 03:44:26 PM »
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  • I am unsure as to whether or not Roncalli defected from the Faith before or during his pontificate. Any manifest and pertinacious heresy is very hard to prove for him.

    In regards to Montini, I tend to believe that he defected from the Faith during his pontificate. When? There are several possible times with 1965, 68, or 69 being key possible years for manifest heresy.

    Luciani is also hard for manifest heresy.

    Wojtyła, Ratzinger, and Bergoglio are much easier for manifest heresy both prior and during their "pontificates".

    Thanks.  Do you know why Father Cekada says most SVs (I know you're a sedeprivationist) don't hold that they fell from the papacy, but were never popes to begin with?

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Challenge for SVs
    « Reply #10 on: March 04, 2024, 03:48:25 PM »
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  • So this is one of the problems with SVism, establishing manifest heresy, especially before their election.

    Siri Thesis (or Siri Theory) explains everything perfectly.

    I don't believe these men were just Catholics who lost the faith at some point.  I also don't believe (as per R&R) that these are just confused individuals who are not manifest heretics and remain in office (contradicts the Church's indefectibility and Traditional Catholic ecclesiology).  I believe they were conscious, deliberate, planted infiltrators ... and that the way they pulled it off was by illegally removing Siri, making them illegitimate popes (even materially), and thus as illegitimate pretenders and Antipopes, they were not protected by the Holy Ghost the way a legitimate pope would be.


    Offline Yeti

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    Re: Challenge for SVs
    « Reply #11 on: March 04, 2024, 04:49:56 PM »
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  • What is the evidence that Roncalli and Montini were manifest heretics before their respective "elections"?

    Roncalli was a Cardinal in good standing and Montini an Archbishop in good standing under Pius XII.  Sure, Roncalli was "suspect" of Modernism, but that suspicion was not enough to prevent him from being made a Cardinal by Pius XII.
    .

    This is an excellent question. I didn't have a good answer to this until recently, when I read a fascinating book called "The Counterlife of a Pope" by a man who was one of the Noble Guard under Roncalli.

    It is basically a biography of Roncalli describing his open communism from basically his childhood, and his open support of communism. Apparently all of this was public knowledge, and only has been lost due to poor recollection and the fact that nobody has bothered to look into Roncalli's past.

    In the early 50s, the Holy Office issued a decree stating that acceptance of communism was a form of apostasy. So, that means Roncalli was a public apostate for nearly a decade before his "election" in 1958.

    Just to take one example out of countless in the book, when Roncalli was bishop of Paris (I forget what exactly his position was; I don't think he was the ordinary; I think he was the papal nuntio or something), the head of the Knights of Malta was caught being a member of Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ and fired. Investigating his background, it was seen that Roncalli had been one of the people who had recommended him for this post. Pius XII sent a canon of St. Mary Major to investigate Roncalli and figure out why he had recommended a freemason to this important post. Roncalli refused to speak with this messenger of the pope, but instead had him speak to his secretary. The canon went in to the secretary's office, and found him wearing a clerical suit (in a chancery office in an openly Catholic country!), who began to rant and rave about how awesome Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ was, and how it was the best thing that had ever happened to the human race. The canon listened with his jaw on the floor, simply aghast. When he could finally speak, he managed to stammer, "But isn't membership in Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ forbidden by canon law?" Roncalli's secretary said, "Oh, don't worry about that, we're going to get that changed very soon! How can the Church not support something as wonderful as Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ?"

    Now, this is only a private conversation, but the book details the constant, ongoing, public support of Roncalli of freemasons and communists everywhere he went, for his entire life. For example, when he was a young priest in Castellamare(?) he was seen in the streets bringing food and supplies to communists who were fighting with the police in the streets in communist ιnѕυrrєcтισns. When he was bishop, he used the chancery office's printing press to print communist pamphlets, at Church expense.

    There is an amusing anecdote by the author himself, that one day he escorted a cardinal to the office of Roncalli and waited outside, as was his duty. When the cardinal came out, he said to the author, "The pope would like to speak with you." The author went in and Roncalli said to him basically, "You are a good young man, and a good journalist, but you have to get with the times. The times are changing, and they are going to be much better. It is good to be a journalist. I read lots of newspapers ..." He pointed to a stack of newspapers on his desk, of which only the top newspaper was visible, and the author saw that was the official newspaper of the Italian communist party, and obviously he couldn't see anything below that, but probably they were communist all the way down.

    The author records countless public events in which Roncalli gave public support to communists and freemasons. This really made me see that he was a public apostate, in terms of the Holy Office pronouncement, for his entire life before his election, as well as afterwards until his death. It was really an eye-opening experience, and made me understand what happened at Vatican 2 much better than I did before.

    I strongly recommend the book, which is available for free on the internet.

    Offline Yeti

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    Re: Challenge for SVs
    « Reply #12 on: March 04, 2024, 05:10:16 PM »
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  • Thanks.  Do you know why Father Cekada says most SVs (I know you're a sedeprivationist) don't hold that they fell from the papacy, but were never popes to begin with?
    .

    He wrote an article about that question here. This is where the rubber meets the road:


    Quote
    Heretic then, nothing to lose now.
    Heretic in Argentina — nothing to lose in Rome.
    Are we supposed to believe that Bergoglio suddenly began to profess these heresies during his walk from the Sistine Chapel to the Loggia of St. Peter’s on March 13, 2013? Or should we not rather say that his statements thereafter merely confirm the modernist heresy Jorge Bergoglio already publicly professed in Argentina long before his election — his adherence to a system that rejects the possibility of religious truth and the objective moral law, that rejects proselytizing those who are atheists, that rejects “judging” such persons, that “cannot say what [God] is,” that classifies “as arrogant those theologies… that had the pretense of saying who He was,” that believes “there is another life because we have already begun to feel it,” that denies Church moral teaching on ѕυιcιdє, that speaks of adulterers as “those who live on the margin of what indissolubility and the sacrament of marriage require of them,” that says “the religious minister does not have the right to force anything on anyone’s private life,” and that insists, contradicting the teaching of all the Church Fathers and even St. Peter himself, that “the Jєωιѕн People can no longer be accused of killing God”?


    Offline ElwinRansom1970

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    Re: Challenge for SVs
    « Reply #13 on: March 04, 2024, 05:13:27 PM »
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  • Thanks.  Do you know why Father Cekada says most SVs (I know you're a sedeprivationist) don't hold that they fell from the papacy, but were never popes to begin with?
    I do not know this, but would genuinely desire to learn.
    "I distrust every idea that does not seem obsolete and grotesque to my contemporaries."
    Nicolás Gómez Dávila

    Offline Yeti

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    Re: Challenge for SVs
    « Reply #14 on: March 04, 2024, 05:18:14 PM »
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  • Quote
    Are we supposed to believe that Bergoglio suddenly began to profess these heresies during his walk from the Sistine Chapel to the Loggia of St. Peter’s on March 13, 2013? Or should we not rather say that his statements thereafter merely confirm the modernist heresy Jorge Bergoglio already publicly professed in Argentina long before his election




    This is self-evident, of course. Moreover, if we don't accept this, then we are saying that being elected to the papacy turned Bergoglio (or his predecessors) from being a faithful Catholic into a raging heretic ... and that idea definitely seems contrary to Christ's promises to St. Peter. :laugh1: