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Author Topic: Cassiciacuм thesis vs Fr. Chazal's position  (Read 5275 times)

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Offline LeDeg

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Cassiciacuм thesis vs Fr. Chazal's position
« on: February 11, 2021, 03:03:33 PM »
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  • What is the real difference between Fr Chazal's position, which I think he refers to as sede-impede(?), and the Cassiciacuм thesis? Is there a practical one? 
    "You must train harder than the enemy who is trying to kill you. You will get all the rest you need in the grave."- Leon Degrelle

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Cassiciacuм thesis vs Fr. Chazal's position
    « Reply #1 on: February 11, 2021, 03:21:43 PM »
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  • What is the real difference between Fr Chazal's position, which I think he refers to as sede-impede(?), and the Cassiciacuм thesis? Is there a practical one?
    You will find it very ably described in his book, which contains two chapters refuting sedeprivationism, and reaffirming his classical R&R position.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Cassiciacuм thesis vs Fr. Chazal's position
    « Reply #2 on: February 11, 2021, 06:36:45 PM »
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  • You will find it very ably described in his book, which contains two chapters refuting sedeprivationism, and reaffirming his classical R&R position.

    No, he most certainly does NOT hold the "classical" R&R position.

    Classical R&R holds that the commands/teachings of the V2 popes must be obeyed on a case by case basis, and rejected if they are bad.

    Fr. Chazal's position is that the V2 popes are "impounded" or "quarantined" and lack any authority, and Catholics should completely ignore them ... on account of their manifest heresy, but thy remain the "visible" head of the Church until they are removed by Church authority.  So a visible head without authority = sedeprivationism in a nutshell.

    These are two completely different things.

    Fr. Chazal, despite his protests, unwittingly articulated a slight variant on sedeprivationism and the difference is very difficult to spot.

    I wrote an extensive thread proving this by quoting him from an hour-long presentation on his position.  I will try to dig it up.

    He independently (to his credit) came to the same conclusions as the sedeprivationists, for the same reasons, but then he got cold feet when this was pointed out ... because he appears not to have known about sedeprivationism.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Cassiciacuм thesis vs Fr. Chazal's position
    « Reply #3 on: February 11, 2021, 08:54:44 PM »
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  • No, he most certainly does NOT hold the "classical" R&R position.

    Classical R&R holds that the commands/teachings of the V2 popes must be obeyed on a case by case basis, and rejected if they are bad.

    Fr. Chazal's position is that the V2 popes are "impounded" or "quarantined" and lack any authority, and Catholics should completely ignore them ... on account of their manifest heresy, but thy remain the "visible" head of the Church until they are removed by Church authority.  So a visible head without authority = sedeprivationism in a nutshell.

    These are two completely different things.

    Fr. Chazal, despite his protests, unwittingly articulated a slight variant on sedeprivationism and the difference is very difficult to spot.

    I wrote an extensive thread proving this by quoting him from an hour-long presentation on his position.  I will try to dig it up.

    He independently (to his credit) came to the same conclusions as the sedeprivationists, for the same reasons, but then he got cold feet when this was pointed out ... because he appears not to have known about sedeprivationism.

    Hallucinogenic wishful thinking.

    As I mentioned at the time, I told Fr. Chazal what you were saying about him, and he responded that he refuted the very theory you persist in attributing to him.

    Somehow, this has/had no effect on you.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Cassiciacuм thesis vs Fr. Chazal's position
    « Reply #4 on: February 12, 2021, 04:11:08 AM »
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  • Hallucinogenic wishful thinking.

    As I mentioned at the time, I told Fr. Chazal what you were saying about him, and he responded that he refuted the very theory you persist in attributing to him.

    Somehow, this has/had no effect on you.

    Please dispute my argument above based on your knowledge of Fr. Chazal’s position ... in particular my distinction between Fr. Chazal’s position and classical R&R.  I do not find your gratuitous statements combined with ad hominems to be convincing.

    I cited chapter and verse (minute and second) from his one hour video presentation.  Did he later modify that position?  On the video he’s absolutely clear that the V2 papal claimants have NO AUTHORITY whatsoever, which is a huge departure from classical R&R.

    I was disappointed to find him reacting emotion against the sedevacantists.  Here I had hoped that his position could open the door to thawing relations between the Resistance and the sedevacantists.  But unfortunately Fr. remains entrenched in the highly unCatholic attitude of contempt for the sedevacantists instead of seeking to find common ground.  I’m very disappointed in him.

    I’m also disappointed with your continued substanceless ad hominem, the “hallucinogenic” this and “wishful thinking” that nonsense.  Please add some substantive argument to this thread or else stop posting.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Cassiciacuм thesis vs Fr. Chazal's position
    « Reply #5 on: February 12, 2021, 04:16:14 AM »
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  • So, with regard to my distinction between classical R&R and Fr. Chazal’s position, which do you dispute, my characterization of classical R&R or my characterization of Fr. Chazal’s position?

    Answer this and perhaps there might be room for a rational discussion.

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Cassiciacuм thesis vs Fr. Chazal's position
    « Reply #6 on: February 12, 2021, 05:18:43 AM »
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  • No, he most certainly does NOT hold the "classical" R&R position.

    Classical R&R holds that the commands/teachings of the V2 popes must be obeyed on a case by case basis, and rejected if they are bad.
    This is the false idea you and many sedes love to spread, why? Who knows? Whatever is Fr. Chazal’s position I cannot say, but the truth is that the R&R position is simply that "we are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man".(Fr. Hesse) This means we Catholics remain under obedience to the pope, but only so long as in obedience to the pope we do not offend God.

    Since the conciliar popes have commanded nothing and taught next to nothing we can obey without offending God, all we *can* do is remain alert and watch for (albeit do not expect) a command / teaching we *can* obey and embrace - without offending God. This, in addition to praying daily for the pope, is what Catholics, faithful subjects of the pope, do. This is the classic R&R position in a nutshell and I wish you would bookmark it.

    If anything, it is the various different branches of sedeisms which are based on a type of case by case basis in regards to when the pope is pope and when he is not, you are confusing the various different sede ideas with classic R&R.  

    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Geremia

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    Re: Cassiciacuм thesis vs Fr. Chazal's position
    « Reply #7 on: December 20, 2023, 12:53:49 PM »
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  • sede-impede
    I've seen it called sedeimpoundism:

    SEDEPLENISM -- See is occupied simpliciter.
    SEDEVACANTISM -- See is vacant simpliciter.
    SEDEPRIVATIONISM -- See is occupied secundum quid and See is vacant secundum quid.
    SEDEIMPOUNDISM -- See is occupied secundum quid and See is vacant secundum quid.
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    Offline MiracleOfTheSun

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    Re: Cassiciacuм thesis vs Fr. Chazal's position
    « Reply #8 on: December 20, 2023, 02:04:48 PM »
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  • This is the false idea you and many sedes love to spread, why? Who knows? Whatever is Fr. Chazal’s position I cannot say...

    He states it in his book and in recent videos.  Francis is a heretic who must be avoided and he has no authority. 


    Offline Marulus Fidelis

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    Re: Cassiciacuм thesis vs Fr. Chazal's position
    « Reply #9 on: December 20, 2023, 02:10:48 PM »
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  • Thoughts in red.

    This is the false idea you and many sedes love to spread, why? Who knows? Whatever is Fr. Chazal’s position I cannot say, but the truth is that the R&R position is simply that "we are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man". "He who heareth you heareth me" - God speaks through men, you reject this (Fr. Hesse) This means we Catholics remain under obedience to the pope Obedient in theory but not in practice?, but only so long as in obedience to the pope we do not offend God. And who's the final authority on what offends God - you or the pope?

    Since the conciliar popes have commanded nothing and taught next to nothing we can obey without offending God, all we *can* do is remain alert and watch for (albeit do not expect) a command / teaching we *can* obey and embrace - without offending God. And this command will be identified by me / Bp. Williamson / Menzingen / the man I put in the place of God. This, in addition to praying daily for the pope, is what Catholics, faithful oh so very faithful subjects oh give me a break of the pope, do. This is the classic R&R position in a nutshell and I wish you would bookmark it.

    If anything, it is the various different branches of sedeisms which are based on a type of case by case basis in regards to when the pope is pope and when he is not, you are confusing the various different sede ideas with classic R&R. 

    Frankly, just an outrageous misrepresentation. You know very well that us Catholics only determine once whether a man is the pope and therefore to be obeyed and you have just admitted that you judge the Vicar of Christ's commands on a case by case basis.

    Ladislaus tried to point out to you that Fr. Chazal says the pope is impounded, always, so all his commands are void, not just some of them that you feel like disobeying, so Fr. Chazal makes only one determination of credibility, just like us, as opposed to people like you who sift the Magisterium. 

    A very simple distinction which is not entering your mind only because you obviously don't want it to.

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Cassiciacuм thesis vs Fr. Chazal's position
    « Reply #10 on: December 20, 2023, 02:33:26 PM »
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  • Ladislaus tried to point out to you that Fr. Chazal says the pope is impounded, always, so all his commands are void, not just some of them that you feel like disobeying, so Fr. Chazal makes only one determination of credibility, just like us, as opposed to people like you who sift the Magisterium.

    A very simple distinction which is not entering your mind only because you obviously don't want it to.
    Yes, yes, Lad has a plethora of sede titles he defines, but for most of us, sedeism boils down to just a few things really.
    1) We cannot listen to anyone if they preach contrary to what the Church has always taught - it doesn't matter if St. Paul the Apostle, an angel from heaven, or the pope preaches it. Error is error no matter who preaches it. The popes' validity or invalidity is something that really, only sedes concern themselves with, the rest of us strive to persevere in the faith without adding that problem for no reason. 

    2) In the words of +ABL: "The truth is that the Pope, even though he is Pope, can err. Apart from cases where the Pope engages his infallibility, he can err. Today we see the Pope err and spread the error and even heresies. To denounce it is not a sign of sedevacantism, but of Catholicism."  To paraphrase your own words, the sedes never make this very simple distinction, it is not entering their minds only because they obviously don't want it to.

    I was going to refute your replies in red, but to what purpose?
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Cassiciacuм thesis vs Fr. Chazal's position
    « Reply #11 on: December 20, 2023, 03:57:48 PM »
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  • At the end of the day, I don't care what position you take ... except if you claim that legitimate papal authority can corrupt the Magisterium and the Mass so badly that Catholics must refuse communion with and submission to him.  Those of you who believe this are not Catholic but are a slight variant on Old Catholics, with some hints of Eastern Orthodoxy and Protestantism.  Outside of these parameters, it matters little to me which of the "5 Opinions" you want to go with or how this situation happened, whether on account of Siri Theory (my personal belief), or due to manifest heresy, or defect of intention, or because Montini was blackmailed and not acting freely, or because Montini was drugged, kept in a dungeon, and replaced by a big-eared double.  These are all theories and details, and are peripheral to the main problem.  You can't throw the Holy Catholic Church under the bus, along with the repeated papal teaching that this cannot happen, along with the teaching of Vatican I that the Holy See cannot be stained or blemished by error, along with Our Lord's promises that the See of Peter will be the rock to which the Church will be unachored with unfailing faith, along with Trent's anathema against believing that the Church's Rites can be inducements to impiety, and the fact that no Catholic theologian has ever held that such a corruption of the Catholic Church is possible.  You even throw Archbishop Lefebvre's affirmation of the same principle under the bus ... while mendaciously claiming that you're the "true heirs" of Archbishop Lefebvre.

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Cassiciacuм thesis vs Fr. Chazal's position
    « Reply #12 on: December 20, 2023, 04:30:52 PM »
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  • Our Lord's promises that the See of Peter will be the rock to which the Church will be unachored with unfailing faith

    :facepalm:

    So, if the "pope" - remember, Fr. Chazal believes Francis is the "pope" - goes bad and spreads failing faith around like a farmer in late winter/early spring, you "impound" him, ignore his commands, his bad seed . . . I absolutely agree.

    But good grief, man, do you not see what the need to "impound" a pope - again and again and again, Fr. Chazal says Francis is POPE - does to your assertion that the pope - vide Francis, per Fr. Chazal - is the "rock to which the Church will be anchored with unfailing faith"?

    You're no idiot, you have to see the implications. But you simply avoid them.

    The same problem confronts the sedeprivationist who has to divide matter from form, creating the monster of a pope with a body but no "soul," or a corrupt soul with a failed faith, even worse.

    It'd be hysterical if it wasn't so tragic.

    And the howls of "Old Catholic" or "Protestant" can't scare away the obvious contradiction: those cries are mere cover and a salve for your heart and emotion, and can't heal the wound in your sedeprivationist theory, or mind. 

    Stubborn's view is not only common sense, but it's Scriptural - God's sense.

    Acts 4:19 - But Peter and John answering, said to them: If it be just in the sight of God, to hear you rather than God, judge ye.

    Acts 5:29 -  But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men.

    Galatians 1:8-9 - But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach a gospel to you besides that which we have preached to you, let him be anathema.  As we said before, so now I say again: If any one preach to you a gospel, besides that which you have received, let him be anathema.

            *and consider who the "we" is there, one of the original "he who hears you, hears me" guys

    1 Cor. 7:23 - You are bought with a price; be not made the bondslaves of men.

    Etc. Etc. Etc.

    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Cassiciacuм thesis vs Fr. Chazal's position
    « Reply #13 on: December 20, 2023, 04:38:32 PM »
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  • By the way, there's an incredible thread around here with some deep theological reflections on this issue:

    https://www.cathinfo.com/sspx-resistance-news/is-father-ringrose-dumping-the-r-r-crowd/

    Many of the current members - Lad, Stubborn, Pax - were very engaged there, though strangely Lad's posts have disappeared from it. Very odd. :confused:

    It has over 187,000 hits, and counting. For good reason.

    A member named Drew should be paid particular attention to.  It's worth the read. 
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline Meg

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    Re: Cassiciacuм thesis vs Fr. Chazal's position
    « Reply #14 on: December 20, 2023, 05:31:24 PM »
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  • At the end of the day, I don't care what position you take ... except if you claim that legitimate papal authority can corrupt the Magisterium and the Mass so badly that Catholics must refuse communion with and submission to him.  Those of you who believe this are not Catholic but are a slight variant on Old Catholics, with some hints of Eastern Orthodoxy and Protestantism.  Outside of these parameters, it matters little to me which of the "5 Opinions" you want to go with or how this situation happened, whether on account of Siri Theory (my personal belief), or due to manifest heresy, or defect of intention, or because Montini was blackmailed and not acting freely, or because Montini was drugged, kept in a dungeon, and replaced by a big-eared double.  These are all theories and details, and are peripheral to the main problem.  You can't throw the Holy Catholic Church under the bus, along with the repeated papal teaching that this cannot happen, along with the teaching of Vatican I that the Holy See cannot be stained or blemished by error, along with Our Lord's promises that the See of Peter will be the rock to which the Church will be unachored with unfailing faith, along with Trent's anathema against believing that the Church's Rites can be inducements to impiety, and the fact that no Catholic theologian has ever held that such a corruption of the Catholic Church is possible.  You even throw Archbishop Lefebvre's affirmation of the same principle under the bus ... while mendaciously claiming that you're the "true heirs" of Archbishop Lefebvre.

    You mention +ABL's affirmation of this same principle." What principle is that? He never affirmed your opinion at all. I've asked you before to provide evidence that +ABL held the same view as you, but you never provided it. 
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29