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Author Topic: Bishops with Ordinary Jurisdiction: Publicly Condemn Heresies of Vatican II?  (Read 3603 times)

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Offline 2Vermont

Re: Bishops with Ordinary Jurisdiction: Publicly Condemn Heresies of Vatican II?
« Reply #25 on: April 25, 2023, 06:46:33 AM »
Quote from: TKGS on April 24, 2023, 07:41:37 PM
Archbishop Thuc was the ordinary of Hue, Viet Nam before being forced to resign when he was not allowed to return to Viet Nam after Vatican 2.  He later came to understand the Crisis.
Yes, you are correct.  He was an ordinary.  And he was excommunicated.  This is what I suspect would happen to any ordinary who actually spoke out publicly against Vatican II.  

So, those with ordinary jurisdiction would....lose their ordinary jurisdiction. 
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Offline AMDGJMJ

Re: Bishops with Ordinary Jurisdiction: Publicly Condemn Heresies of Vatican II?
« Reply #26 on: April 25, 2023, 07:02:16 AM »
Quote from: 2Vermont on April 24, 2023, 11:23:48 AM
I found this on the diocesan site:

Between 1962 and 1965, McVinney attended all four sessions of the Second Vatican Council in Rome. Following the conclusion of the Council, he created a Diocesan Liturgical Commission in June 1964 and one of the first Diocesan Ecuмenical Commissions in the United States in January 1965.

Most Rev. Russell J. McVinney, D.D., LL.D. - Diocese of Providence, Rhode Island - Providence, RI
Ugh...  So he stood up against Communion in the hand and such but really actually gave in to most other things.   A true "conservative" rather than a traditional Catholic.  😣

Thank you for sharing.

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Offline PAT317

Re: Bishops with Ordinary Jurisdiction: Publicly Condemn Heresies of Vatican II?
« Reply #27 on: April 25, 2023, 10:01:00 AM »
Quote from: TKGS on April 24, 2023, 07:41:37 PM
Archbishop Thuc was the ordinary of Hue, Viet Nam before being forced to resign when he was not allowed to return to Viet Nam after Vatican 2.  He later came to understand the Crisis.
Quote from: 2Vermont on April 25, 2023, 06:46:33 AM

Yes, you are correct.  He was an ordinary.  And he was excommunicated.  This is what I suspect would happen to any ordinary who actually spoke out publicly against Vatican II.

So, those with ordinary jurisdiction would....lose their ordinary jurisdiction.

My understanding Archbishop Thục's forced resignation had nothing to do with him speaking out against Vatican II whatsoever, but only the politics re: Viet Nam, as TKGS said.  If anyone has evidence of his condemning or speaking out against VII before his forced resignation, I would be very interested to see it.


Quote from: Yeti on April 24, 2023, 01:38:53 PM

Bp. Thuc publicly condemned Vatican 2

When did he do this?  Can you please provide quotes?  I am asking because I am genuinely curious, not having ever seen any quotes by him condemning VII (or, frankly, any quotes at all).  My understanding is that, at least at the Council itself, he did not speak out.  He was not even part of the Coetus Internationalis Patrum organized by the likes of Archbishops Lefebvre and Sigaud which tried to fight the liberalism during the Council.  So I would like to know when exactly he started speaking out against Vatican II (manifested by actual quotes). 


The best timeline I can come up with is:

+Thục remained in Rome during the Council years (1962–65)
After the closing of the Second Vatican Council, none of the relevant governments – American, Vietnamese or the Vatican – consented to Thục returning to Vietnam.
Paul VI used this inability to return to force him to resign, and +Thục began his exile in Rome.
So far, I am not aware of any criticism of VII.
1 January 1976, in El Palmar de Troya, Spain, Thục ordained Clemente Domínguez y Gómez.

If anyone here can flesh out this timeline with actual quotes condemning Vatican II & when he said them, I would find it interesting.  :popcorn:

 

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Offline PAT317

Re: Bishops with Ordinary Jurisdiction: Publicly Condemn Heresies of Vatican II?
« Reply #28 on: April 25, 2023, 10:23:47 AM »
Quote from: Yeti on April 24, 2023, 01:38:53 PM
To answer Vermont's question, there were only a couple of bishops with jurisdiction who did so, and refused to consent, even by silence. Abp. Lefebvre is the most well-known example. I believe Bp. Castro Mayer did so too, though I don't know very much about him. Bp. Thuc publicly condemned Vatican 2 and denounced the false papal claimants as anti-popes.

At the Council itself, there was a group called The Coetus Internationalis Patrum (International Group of Fathers) which tried to fight the liberalism as the Council was underway.  Two bishops named above, Abp. Lefebvre & Bp. Castro Mayer were in this group, as well as many others.  Sadly, though, too many (all of them?, except for +ABL and +de Castro Mayer in his own diocese) stopped fighting after the Council.  e.g. Archbishop Sigaud, a co-founder of the Coetus, "implemented the Novus Ordo Missae in his diocese and did not support Archbishop Lefebvre's Society of St. Pius X."  Even Bp. de Castro Mayer didn't do much publicly (meaning: internationally, something the world would know about as with +ABL), as far as I know, other than keeping his own diocese as Traditional as he could.  I am not aware of much public condemnation of VII, nor even of much public support for +ABL, until after he was forced to retire. 

I have heard it said that some of the more traditional-leaning bishops died soon after VII of a broken heart.  Who knows?

As far as bishops with Ordinary Jurisdiction over a diocese, not yet retired, the only one I know who at least fought the liberalism within his own diocese (& didn't die soon after VII) is Bp. de Castro Mayer. 


[Archbishop Lefebvre was head of a religious order, not a diocesan bishop, in the 1960s.]
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Offline Yeti

  • Supporter
Re: Bishops with Ordinary Jurisdiction: Publicly Condemn Heresies of Vatican II?
« Reply #29 on: April 25, 2023, 11:48:55 AM »
Quote from: PAT317 on April 25, 2023, 10:01:00 AM
When did he do this?  Can you please provide quotes?
.


There is a very famous public condemnation that Bp. Thuc made of the false church, which should have been made by all the bishops that supposedly were against Vatican 2. One word of this docuмent is worth more than a thousand rumors about some bishop out there who secretly didn't like the new Mass or was passively resistant to the changes after the Council but refused to say anything against it publicly.

Here's what Bp. Thuc said, and this is a public statement:

Quote
Declaration of Archbishop Ngo-Dinh-Thuc
How does the Catholic Church appear today as we look at it? In Rome, John Paul II reigns as “Pope,” surrounded by the body of Cardinals and of many bishops and prelates. Outside of Rome, the Catholic Church seems to be flourishing, along with its bishops and priests. The number of Catholics is great. Daily the Mass is celebrated in so many churches, and on Sundays the churches are full of many faithful who come to hear the Mass and receive Holy Communion.
But in the sight of God, how does today’s Church appear? Are the Masses — both the daily ones and those at which people assist on Sundays — pleasing to God? By no means, because that Mass is the same for Catholics as it is for Protestants — therefore it is displeasing to God and invalid. The only Mass that pleases God is the Mass of St. Pius V, which is offered by few priests and bishops, among whom I count myself.
Therefore, to the extent that I can, I will open seminaries for educating candidates for that priesthood which is pleasing to God.
Besides this “Mass,” which does not please God, there are many other things that God rejects: for example, changes in the ordination of priests, the consecration of bishops, and in the sacraments of Confirmation and of Extreme Unction.
Moreover, the “priests” now hold to:
1) modernism;
2) false ecuмenism
3) the adoration [or cult] of man;
4) the freedom to embrace any religion whatsoever;
5) the unwillingness to condemn heresies and to expel the heretics.
Therefore, in so far as I am a bishop of the Roman Catholic Church, I judge that the Chair of the Roman Catholic Church is vacant; and it behooves me, as bishop, to do all that is needed so that the Roman Catholic Church will endure in its mission for the salvation of souls.
February 25, 1982
Munich
+Peter Martin Ngo-dinh-Thuc
Archbishop

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