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Author Topic: Bishops with Ordinary Jurisdiction: Publicly Condemn Heresies of Vatican II?  (Read 3606 times)

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If they think (incorrectly) that they they can disagree with the “pope” unless he teaches [i}ex cathedra[/i], why would they be preaching against VII etc. For a bishop to lose his jurisdiction, he must be a heretic, schismatic or an excommunicate. Silence does not necessarily mean complicity with heresy or schism.[/size]
Still leaves us with impotent bishops in the Eastern Rite and a crisis that never ends.

You'll have to forgive me, but I'm not in a good space with this whole mess right now.  Supposedly we have to have bishops with ordinary jurisdiction (at least that's what is typically asserted), but none of them lift a finger to get us out of this mess.  

When all is said and done, the only bishops that are speaking up about the heresies of V2 are the Trad bishops.  I'm tired of hearing about the Eastern bishops and the excuses.  They've done squat. 

Still leaves us with impotent bishops in the Eastern Rite and a crisis that never ends.

You'll have to forgive me, but I'm not in a good space with this whole mess right now.  Supposedly we have to have bishops with ordinary jurisdiction (at least that's what is typically asserted), but none of them lift a finger to get us out of this mess. 

When all is said and done, the only bishops that are speaking up about the heresies of V2 are the Trad bishops.  I'm tired of hearing about the Eastern bishops and the excuses.  They've done squat.
I totally agree with you, 2Vermont regarding the Eastern Bishops. They're doing squat. Some, from my limited perspective of what I've read about them, are open heretics. But I don't think having the Trad bishops as the answer is correct. The Trad Bishops themselves, as far as I know, don't claim that they have habitual jurisdiction.


Offline Yeti

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Silence is a form of consent, particularly for someone in authority, such as a bishop. So Novus Ordo bishops who do not condemn Vatican 2 are thereby consenting to it. In order for any of them to not consent to Vatican 2, they would have to publicly repudiate it.

To answer Vermont's question, there were only a couple of bishops with jurisdiction who did so, and refused to consent, even by silence. Abp. Lefebvre is the most well-known example. I believe Bp. Castro Mayer did so too, though I don't know very much about him. Bp. Thuc publicly condemned Vatican 2 and denounced the false papal claimants as anti-popes.

Those are all the ones I'm aware of, and since only public rejection of Vatican 2 can overcome the public presumption that they consent to it, it stands to reason that we must necessarily know who publicly rejects Vatican 2, and since those are the only ones I'm aware of, most likely that's all there is.

There were certainly cardinals and bishops who privately did not accept Vatican 2, but since they did not publicly condemn it, by that omission they thereby publicly accepted it even if privately they didn't.

We don't need to hear them specifically talk about their thoughts on Vatican 2 to know whether they consent to it or not. The absurdity of this is made clear if you substitute a different bishop and a different council, and say the same thing. For example, to say, "I don't know what Cardinal Spellman thought about the Third Council of Constantinople because I believe he never spoke publicly on the matter, so I can't say whether he accepted it or not. For all we know he may have had reservations about it." This is absurd because every bishop is presumed to accept every council of the Church.

Silence is a form of consent, particularly for someone in authority, such as a bishop. So Novus Ordo bishops who do not condemn Vatican 2 are thereby consenting to it. In order for any of them to not consent to Vatican 2, they would have to publicly repudiate it.

To answer Vermont's question, there were only a couple of bishops with jurisdiction who did so, and refused to consent, even by silence. Abp. Lefebvre is the most well-known example. I believe Bp. Castro Mayer did so too, though I don't know very much about him. Bp. Thuc publicly condemned Vatican 2 and denounced the false papal claimants as anti-popes.

Those are all the ones I'm aware of, and since only public rejection of Vatican 2 can overcome the public presumption that they consent to it, it stands to reason that we must necessarily know who publicly rejects Vatican 2, and since those are the only ones I'm aware of, most likely that's all there is.

There were certainly cardinals and bishops who privately did not accept Vatican 2, but since they did not publicly condemn it, by that omission they thereby publicly accepted it even if privately they didn't.

We don't need to hear them specifically talk about their thoughts on Vatican 2 to know whether they consent to it or not. The absurdity of this is made clear if you substitute a different bishop and a different council, and say the same thing. For example, to say, "I don't know what Cardinal Spellman thought about the Third Council of Constantinople because I believe he never spoke publicly on the matter, so I can't say whether he accepted it or not. For all we know he may have had reservations about it." This is absurd because every bishop is presumed to accept every council of the Church.
I can see silence in the early years perhaps, but silence decades into the crisis is suspicious at best.  No one in (supposed) authority can claim ignorance.  If these men are part of the "Teaching Body" that the quoted theologians speak of, then it's obvious that that includes teaching the Faithful against the heresies of Vatican II. 

I also wonder whether the Eastern bishops look at the Latin church as a separate church and therefore feel no need to address it ...as long as they state that they are "in communion with the pope".  

So, so far in 60 plus years there has been no ordinary who has publicly condemned Vatican II (before or after retirement).  This is why I asked the other questions in my OP.  Has this not happened because they know they would be excommunicated and no longer have ordinary jurisdiction?
Archbishop Thuc was the ordinary of Hue, Viet Nam before being forced to resign when he was not allowed to return to Viet Nam after Vatican 2.  He later came to understand the Crisis.